Should Hamas be allowed to exist?

iguanaman · Oct 15, 2023

RaleBulgarian said:
Not true.

At what cost to innocent Palestinians?

Do you even know how many solutions including a State for the Palestinians that they rejected? The first one was in 1947....

The UN partition plan
In November 1947, the same Mufti refused to adopt the UN partition plan that offered to establish two states, one Jewish, the other Arab. The Mufti rejected a two-state solution until the day he died, a choice ordinary Palestinians may well regret. Had he agreed to the UN plan, they would have gained a much larger area than what is on offer today.

https://besacenter.org/palestinian-rejectionism/

After the failure of Camp David Summit in the summer of 2000, Ehud Barak and Yasser Arafat asked Clinton to present a peace plan. It was indeed presented to the parties on 23 December 2000. The plan granted the Palestinians a state on about 95 per cent of the territories, division of Jerusalem and a solution to the refugee problem by an international fund, with a limited right of return, (at least in the original offer). After four days, the Israeli government decided to approve the parameters, presenting reservations that did not contradict the parameters themselves. Arafat came to Washington, and before leaving for the White House, he met with the Saudi Arabian ambassador, Bandar Bin Sultan, who informed him of the Arab countries’ consent and urged him to say yes to the parameters. ‘If you say no, it won’t be a tragedy,’ Bandar told him, ‘It would be a crime.’

Arafat committed both tragedy and crime. He said no. Bin Sultan repeated his version in in a lengthy interview with Al-Arabiya in 2020. Martin Indyk confirmed this version of events in a series of tweets immediately after that interview.

https://fathomjournal.org/a-modern-history-of-palestinian-rejectionism/

iguanaman · Oct 15, 2023

Spock said:
Not sure your point. Hamas will blend into the population seamlessly. There is no Hamas army so far as I know. How will Israel find Hamas for retribution?

There are known leaders and you can be sure those packing AK's are also members of Hamas. The tunnels will also be full of them and their munitions. Do you think Hamas will "blend in" or defend their tunnels?

A Hamas leader has told Al Jazeera that the group is prepared for any potential deployment of Israeli troops inside Gaza amid strong indications that Israel is preparing a ground offensive into the besieged enclave in response to Saturday’s attack.“We are not afraid. We are a strong people. We have a strong determination to continue. We have a lot of fighters and a lot of people who want to support us,” said Ghazi Hamad, a member of the Hamas political bureau.“Even people in the borders of Jordan, Lebanon and everywhere, they want to come here and fight for us. Gaza is not a garden and it will be very costly for them,” Hamad warned.

iguanaman · Oct 15, 2023

dairyair said:
1st honest thing you said.
It was set up to fail from the start. It was a bad choice to make a Jewish State in Arab land.

So you admit all the death and destruction is a result of the Arab world saying it was a "bad choice"? It is a reality and Israel will not simply disappear because the Arabs hate the Jews. The Palestinians made their choice and will continue to die because of it. Now that that is settled how many will die this time do you think? Do you even really care?

NatMorton · Oct 15, 2023

RaleBulgarian said:
Completely eliminating Hamas isn’t likely, and even if it could be accomplished, without settling the two state issue there’ll always be violence.

Let’s remove Hamas first and then see what’s possible.

RaleBulgarian · Oct 15, 2023

iguanaman said:
Do you even know how many solutions including a State for the Palestinians that they rejected? The first one was in 1947....

The UN partition plan
In November 1947, the same Mufti refused to adopt the UN partition plan that offered to establish two states, one Jewish, the other Arab. The Mufti rejected a two-state solution until the day he died, a choice ordinary Palestinians may well regret. Had he agreed to the UN plan, they would have gained a much larger area than what is on offer today.

https://besacenter.org/palestinian-rejectionism/

After the failure of Camp David Summit in the summer of 2000, Ehud Barak and Yasser Arafat asked Clinton to present a peace plan. It was indeed presented to the parties on 23 December 2000. The plan granted the Palestinians a state on about 95 per cent of the territories, division of Jerusalem and a solution to the refugee problem by an international fund, with a limited right of return, (at least in the original offer). After four days, the Israeli government decided to approve the parameters, presenting reservations that did not contradict the parameters themselves. Arafat came to Washington, and before leaving for the White House, he met with the Saudi Arabian ambassador, Bandar Bin Sultan, who informed him of the Arab countries’ consent and urged him to say yes to the parameters. ‘If you say no, it won’t be a tragedy,’ Bandar told him, ‘It would be a crime.’

Arafat committed both tragedy and crime. He said no. Bin Sultan repeated his version in in a lengthy interview with Al-Arabiya in 2020. Martin Indyk confirmed this version of events in a series of tweets immediately after that interview.

https://fathomjournal.org/a-modern-history-of-palestinian-rejectionism/

Your previous wrong assertion that I replied to;

iguanaman said:
So far they have rejected any proposal that allows jews to remain in the ME.

RaleBulgarian · Oct 15, 2023

NatMorton said:
Let’s remove Hamas first and then see what’s possible.

Sounds good.

Gotta plan for removing Hamas that doesn’t involve killing 10’s or hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians in the process, very possibly igniting a regional war that would pull American military forces/members into a direct fighting role?

Spock · Oct 15, 2023

iguanaman said:
There are known leaders and you can be sure those packing AK's are also members of Hamas. The tunnels will also be full of them and their munitions. Do you think Hamas will "blend in" or defend their tunnels?

A Hamas leader has told Al Jazeera that the group is prepared for any potential deployment of Israeli troops inside Gaza amid strong indications that Israel is preparing a ground offensive into the besieged enclave in response to Saturday’s attack.“We are not afraid. We are a strong people. We have a strong determination to continue. We have a lot of fighters and a lot of people who want to support us,” said Ghazi Hamad, a member of the Hamas political bureau.“Even people in the borders of Jordan, Lebanon and everywhere, they want to come here and fight for us. Gaza is not a garden and it will be very costly for them,” Hamad warned.

The smart ones will disappear.

NatMorton · Oct 15, 2023

RaleBulgarian said:
Sounds good.

Gotta plan for removing Hamas that doesn’t involve killing 10’s or hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians in the process, very possibly igniting a regional war that would pull American military forces/members into a direct fighting role?

No, I don’t think Hamas can be removed without significant levels of Palestinian civilian casualties.

RaleBulgarian · Oct 15, 2023

NatMorton said:
No, I don’t think Hamas can be removed without significant levels of Palestinian civilian casualties.

And that’s acceptable to you?

iguanaman · Oct 15, 2023

RaleBulgarian said:
Sounds good.

Gotta plan for removing Hamas that doesn’t involve killing 10’s or hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians in the process, very possibly igniting a regional war that would pull American military forces/members into a direct fighting role?

That would be up to Hamas wouldn't it? Their actions will determine how many "innocents" get killed a lot more than the Israelis. I take it you don't think that Hamas will try to minimize civilian deaths and instead try to maximize them. You are probably right. They are the ones that want more dead Palestinians because it helps their cause. Is that why you are so anxious to help them?

RaleBulgarian · Oct 15, 2023

iguanaman said:
That would be up to Hamas wouldn't it? Their actions will determine how many "innocents" get killed a lot more than the Israelis. I take it you don't think that Hamas will try to minimize civilian deaths and instead try to maximize them. You are probably right. They are the ones that want more dead Palestinians because it helps their cause. Is that why you are so anxious to help them?

Pull it back, @iguanaman. Accusing me of supporting Hamas because I don’t support the wholesale slaughter of innocent Palestinians as an acceptable price to kill every Hamas member is bull shit.

Plasmaball · Oct 15, 2023

SkyChief said:
As long as Iran exists, terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah will exist.

Hamas cannot be eliminated without first eliminating Iran.

Long as people exist some one will call someone a terrorist

iguanaman · Oct 15, 2023

RaleBulgarian said:
Pull it back, @iguanaman. Accusing me of supporting Hamas because I don’t support the wholesale slaughter of innocent Palestinians as an acceptable price to kill every Hamas member is bull shit.

So it's a coincidence that you have the exact same message as Putin and Hamas? Do you at least recognize Israel's right to exist? Hamas does not and Putin wants it for himself of course. Wagner group help train the terrorists and one at least became a team leader and was on tape going thru the busted wall at the Gaza border. And then there is this....

Poroshenko: Wagner signature behind Hamas attack

“I’m absolutely convinced that there is Russian interest, Russian hands, in the preparation of the Hamas terror attack on Israel.”
Though without concrete proof, he said he knew very well how Wagner mercenaries operate.
“I have known it since 2014 when the first Wagner group appeared in the east of my country. I know the signature of Wagner from their attacks in Lysychansk, Severodonetsk, Soledar, Bakhmut. This is exactly Wagner tactics.”
“I’m absolutely sure that the Russian Wagner instructors in Syria were transferred to Hamas in Gaza and participated in the training of terrorists to prepare the absolutely barbaric attack on Israel from the Gaza strip.”

https://www.euractiv.com/section/gl...oshenko-wagner-signature-behind-hamas-attack/

RaleBulgarian · Oct 15, 2023

iguanaman said:
So it's a coincidence that you have the exact same message as Putin and Hamas? Do you at least recognize Israel's right to exist? Hamas does not and Putin wants it for himself of course. Wagner group help train the terrorists and one at least became a team leader and was on tape going thru the busted wall at the Gaza border. And then there is this....

Poroshenko: Wagner signature behind Hamas attack
“I’m absolutely convinced that there is Russian interest, Russian hands, in the preparation of the Hamas terror attack on Israel.”
Though without concrete proof, he said he knew very well how Wagner mercenaries operate.
“I have known it since 2014 when the first Wagner group appeared in the east of my country. I know the signature of Wagner from their attacks in Lysychansk, Severodonetsk, Soledar, Bakhmut. This is exactly Wagner tactics.”
“I’m absolutely sure that the Russian Wagner instructors in Syria were transferred to Hamas in Gaza and participated in the training of terrorists to prepare the absolutely barbaric attack on Israel from the Gaza strip.”

https://www.euractiv.com/section/gl...oshenko-wagner-signature-behind-hamas-attack/

Is it a coincidence that you rationalize your shitty dishonest personal attacks exactly like Trumpsters/MAGAts do when others disagree with their opinions?

Spock · Oct 15, 2023

iguanaman said:
That would be up to Hamas wouldn't it? Their actions will determine how many "innocents" get killed a lot more than the Israelis. I take it you don't think that Hamas will try to minimize civilian deaths and instead try to maximize them. You are probably right. They are the ones that want more dead Palestinians because it helps their cause. Is that why you are so anxious to help them?

So if Hamas is standing next to innocents and Israeli soldiers kill the group, that assault is the fault of the Hamas belligerent?

iguanaman · Oct 15, 2023

Spock said:
So if Hamas is standing next to innocents and Israeli soldiers kill the group, that assault is the fault of the Hamas belligerent?

As sure as if they put the bullet in the child's head themselves. They do not need to die either though. They can just surrender. That would be the brave thing to do. Do you believe Hamas has committed crimes and should be punished for them?

iguanaman · Oct 15, 2023

RaleBulgarian said:
Is it a coincidence that you rationalize your shitty dishonest personal attacks exactly like Trumpsters/MAGAts do when others disagree with their opinions?

I don't want to be personal and I am just telling the truth. Maybe that makes me a monster. I know that you support Ukraine and don't fall for Russian propaganda. I just want you to realize that this attack was not all Hamas. It benefits Putin as it takes the world's eye off his disastrous war in Ukraine. There is a axis of evil that is using this to their advantage and you need to be careful what conclusions you jump to.

dairyair · Oct 15, 2023

iguanaman said:
So you admit all the death and destruction is a result of the Arab world saying it was a "bad choice"? It is a reality and Israel will not simply disappear because the Arabs hate the Jews. The Palestinians made their choice and will continue to die because of it. Now that that is settled how many will die this time do you think? Do you even really care?

It's a result of Britain making a bad choice.

iguanaman · Oct 16, 2023

dairyair said:
It's a result of Britain making a bad choice.

You know that Israel is a very successful country that could be a model for the rest of the area. I don't think we can call a decision that is 90 years old any kind of choice. It just IS after a certain point.

RaleBulgarian · Oct 16, 2023

iguanaman said:
I don't want to be personal and I am just telling the truth. Maybe that makes me a monster. I know that you support Ukraine and don't fall for Russian propaganda. I just want you to realize that this attack was not all Hamas. It benefits Putin as it takes the world's eye off his disastrous war in Ukraine. There is an axis of evil that is using this to their advantage and you need to be careful what conclusions you jump to.

Point out where you think I jumped to any conclusions.

Betcha can’t.

RaleBulgarian · Oct 16, 2023

iguanaman said:
… you need to be careful what conclusions you jump to.

Point out where you think I jumped to any conclusions.

Betcha can’t.

AndyWGL23 · Oct 16, 2023

RaleBulgarian said:
And that’s acceptable to you?

That your asking for is unrealistic every war has innocent civilians killed Iraq in 04, ukraine currently and now this war.

Better plan is keep Civilians death to low numbers as Israel possibly can under 10k would be Amazing result.

Hamas hiding in buildings filled with innocent civilians and using humans Shields is maybe the reason why where is civilians deaths!.

NatMorton · Oct 16, 2023

RaleBulgarian said:
And that’s acceptable to you?

Yes, it’s come to that point. Hamas must be ended, and there’s no way to do that without civilian casualties.

redbeer · Oct 16, 2023

Questerr said:
You think the Southerners who hated black people with liberals/progressives?

Let me guess, you actually believe in 1964 it was republicans who filibustered the Civil Rights Act for 60 days?.....which party in American politics always bring "race" into every question?.....which party wants to teach division of color into our younger students, even up today?

The party of race, the party of division has always been the democrat party.

RaleBulgarian · Oct 16, 2023

AndyWGL23 said:
That your asking for is unrealistic every war has innocent civilians killed Iraq in 04, ukraine currently and now this war.

I haven’t asked for anything.

AndyWGL23 said:
Better plan is keep Civilians death to low numbers

AndyWGL23 said:
Hamas hiding in buildings filled with innocent civilians and using humans Shields is maybe the reason why where is civilians deaths!.

No shit.

Should Hamas be allowed to exist?

Honest

Poroshenko: Wagner signature behind Hamas attack​

Poroshenko: Wagner signature behind Hamas attack​

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency

Poroshenko: Wagner signature behind Hamas attack

Poroshenko: Wagner signature behind Hamas attack