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Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to beliefs?

Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to beliefs?

  • Govn't should not spend money for abortion, but should for anti-abortion laws

    Votes: 3 27.3%
  • Government should spend money for abortions, but not for anti abortion laws

    Votes: 3 27.3%
  • Govn't should spend no money on any abortion matter, prolife or prochoice

    Votes: 2 18.2%
  • Government should spend money for abortions and abortion restrictive laws

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • IDK, Other

    Votes: 3 27.3%

  • Total voters
    11

joko104

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Often, prolifers and prolife politicians claim that the government should not be allowed to spend money on abortions because that is contrary to some people's religious beliefs. And often spending laws and regulations are passed accordingly - claiming this is respecting people's beliefs and not making them pay for matters against their beliefs on abortion.

Laws that restrict, inhibit, confound or make abortions more difficult to obtain are against my beliefs. Should I also be able to demand the government spend no money on abortion matters contrary to my beliefs, ie no money be spend enforcing any anti-abortion laws.

If government bans spending money as prolifer's want it banned as violating their beliefs, should prochoicers equally be respected our beliefs in wanting government spending on anti-abortion actions banned?

What do you think?
 
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AliHajiSheik

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Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to bel

I don't care about abortion and I don't want government paying for elective procedures. As for states passing laws, I agree with safe but rare. I think I heard Clinton say that.
 

csense

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

What do you think?
I think for your argument to make sense, you would need to show that your beliefs are religiously motivated also.

Good luck with that...
 

lizzie

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

Laws that restrict, inhibit, confound or make abortions more difficult to obtain are against my beliefs. Should I also be able to demand the government spend no money on abortion matters contrary to my beliefs, ie no money be spend enforcing any anti-abortion laws.
It isn't the government money spent on making and enforcing laws, that pro-lifers have an issue with. It's government-funding of abortions themselves.
 

Morality Games

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

I think for your argument to make sense, you would need to show that your beliefs are religiously motivated also.

Good luck with that...
That's not very challenging.
 

MaggieD

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

Often, prolifers and prolife politicians claim that the government should not be allowed to spend money on abortions because that is contrary to some people's religious beliefs. And often spending laws and regulations are passed accordingly - claiming this is respecting people's beliefs and not making them pay for matters against their beliefs on abortion.

Laws that restrict, inhibit, confound or make abortions more difficult to obtain are against my beliefs. Should I also be able to demand the government spend no money on abortion matters contrary to my beliefs, ie no money be spend enforcing any anti-abortion laws.

If government bans spending money as prolifer's want it banned as violating their beliefs, should prochoicers equally be respected our beliefs in wanting government spending on anti-abortion actions banned?

What do you think?
I'm ProChoice. I don't think the government should pay for abortions. I do think the government should spend money educating women to both of her choices in equal amounts.
 

Morality Games

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

Then have at it...
The New Testament takes a pretty dim view of government intrusiveness into the lives of ordinary persons and groups in society. It isn't difficult to develop a religious-motivated ideology that resists government involvement into personal issues. If we were culturally Chinese, we could cite Taoism, which is much more explicit in its dislike of such intrusiveness.
 

ForcedAppeal

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

Low interest financing assistance maybe, but not pay for.
(don't laugh, I'm serious)
 

csense

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

The New Testament takes a pretty dim view of government intrusiveness into the lives of ordinary persons and groups in society. It isn't difficult to develop a religious-motivated ideology that resists government intrusions like an anti abortion policy.
You're deflecting the question.

I'll make it easy for you. Which established religion holds that abortion is morally good.
 

Morality Games

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

You're deflecting the question.

I'll make it easy for you. Which established religion holds that abortion is morally good.
You don't have to believe abortion is morally good to believe an anti abortion policy is immoral. According to an ideology that dislikes government intrusiveness into the private lives of groups and individuals (in this case for religious reasons), abortion may be evil, but it is not an evil the government can be permitted to act against.

The religious objection is against the government taking action against abortion.
 

Carjosse

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

I'm fine with every province in Canada a paying all or most of the price of an abortion.
 

csense

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

You don't have to believe abortion is morally good to believe an anti abortion policy is immoral. According to an ideology that dislikes government intrusiveness into the private lives of groups and individuals (in this case for religious reasons), abortion may be evil, but it is not an evil the government can be permitted to act against.

The religious objection is against the government taking action against abortion.

You're making an ideological argument...
 

Morality Games

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

You're making an ideological argument...
I'm proposing that it is plausible that a religious organization would oppose a government's anti abortion policy strictly because their religion opposes government intrusion or involvement in the personal lives of groups or individuals. That isn't too radical in a world where denominations like the Amish and Jehovah's Witnesses strive to limit their interaction with government and other institutions perceived as morally corrupt. A government that actively involves itself in the business of its citizens, whether that business be moral or immoral, might force itself into contact with such groups and so obtrude on their religious beliefs.
 

csense

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

I'm proposing that it is plausible that a religious organization would oppose a government's anti abortion policy strictly because their religion opposes government intrusion or involvement in the personal lives of groups or individuals. That isn't too radical in a world where denominations like the Amish and Jehovah's Witnesses strive to limit their interaction with government and other institutions perceived as morally corrupt. A government that actively involves itself in the business of its citizens, whether that business be moral or immoral, might force itself into contact with such groups and so obtrude on their religious beliefs.
Whether it's plausible or not, you haven't presented anything that's demonstrative. Ping me when you're up to the challenge.
 

Morality Games

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

Whether it's plausible or not, you haven't presented anything that's demonstrative. Ping me when you're up to the challenge.
Well, technically the Jehovah's Witnesses and Amish are demonstrative of a anti-government religious whose anti government convictions affected policy. They have enjoyed special exemptions from things like the draft and in education, for example.

Not that I understand why I needed to be demonstrative. I wasn't arguing that there was a historical group of people who in the past argued that anti-abortion policies offended their religion. That such a religious group could exist carries my argument the OP's premise wasn't the leap you suggested it was.
 
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JayDubya

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

My tax money shouldn't be spend on the goods and services you request for yourself in general. It is particularly noisome for my tax money to be used on services you don't need. It is anathema for that service you don't need to be paying someone to kill your kid.

On the contrary, taxes are supposed to be for things like law and order, on a police force to find folks like those who hire others to kill their kid, and on courts where such heinous things can be convicted for their misdeeds, and on prisons to hold these monsters where they can't kill again.
 

csense

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

Not that I understand why I needed to be demonstrative. I wasn't arguing that there was a historical group of people who in the past argued that anti-abortion policies offended their religion. That such a religious group could exist carries my argument the OP's premise wasn't the leap you suggested it was.
The opening poster was making an actionable comparison. That's why when you answered my query, I was looking for demonstrable evidence, rather than hypothetical.
 

Ryan5

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

Often, prolifers and prolife politicians claim that the government should not be allowed to spend money on abortions because that is contrary to some people's religious beliefs. And often spending laws and regulations are passed accordingly - claiming this is respecting people's beliefs and not making them pay for matters against their beliefs on abortion.

Laws that restrict, inhibit, confound or make abortions more difficult to obtain are against my beliefs. Should I also be able to demand the government spend no money on abortion matters contrary to my beliefs, ie no money be spend enforcing any anti-abortion laws.

If government bans spending money as prolifer's want it banned as violating their beliefs, should prochoicers equally be respected our beliefs in wanting government spending on anti-abortion actions banned?

What do you think?


Emotions and beliefs should never play a role in governance. In all sincerity we should have masters in efficiency running the country and never allow 'Themed' elections. Some of the posts in this thread (by supposed conservatives) belong more on an emotionally charged show such as the view.


Joe Bob the taxpayer pays for it either way. If abortions are not quasi subsidized by the government to the poor as they currently are, crime, rape, incarceration all go up. All on the tab of Joe Bob the Taxpayer. There is no emotional aspect to this fact. You pay more if abortions are harder for the poor to get. It's the same logic as when you drop a rock and it falls to the ground. It is assured. This whole concept of anti abortion is illogical from, ironically, the most conservative viewpoints and the most progressive viewpoints. Nobody wins if abortion is made difficult for the poor to attain.

-The poor lose

-The rich lose

-The middle class loses most of all because they can't hide behind walls in the Hamptons when drunken mistake #9567 decides to go on a raping spree because he has no life prospects. The rich will be fine. The middle class little girl ends up being raped or the poor little girl. Abortion is actually the most 'Pro Poor' Policy ever to exist.
 

JayDubya

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

The rich will be fine. The middle class little girl ends up being raped or the poor little girl. Abortion is actually the most 'Pro Poor' Policy ever to exist.
Yeah, culling the poor for their own good is very pro-poor. Why limit it to the kids of poor people, though, then? Why not just be that "humane" for the rest of them?
 

Ryan5

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

Yeah, culling the poor for their own good is very pro-poor. Why limit it to the kids of poor people, though, then? Why not just be that "humane" for the rest of them?

See that kind of post is exactly what I mean. That kind of blatant illogic is why these issues stay in the policy mud and are why Joe Bob taxpayer will always pay insanely more, ironically thanks to 'confused' Libertarian and Conservative types that inject emotion into policy thinking they're applying morality when really they're simply adding to the problem.


"Culling the poor for their own good"

-Only someone who doesn't understand the cost of the issue could take that out of that post. If a poor person wants an abortion, goes to get one because they know it's free as the state will eat the cost or they wouldn't be able to pay for it, none of that amounts to "culling the poor". Only an absolute ideological, overly emotional simpleton could take that from that post. The poor person is making their own decision (for their own benefit). They say as much. Nobody is "culling" them. Absolutely amazing and horrifying that we have individuals like you in policy advocacy. Truly a scary world.


The next sign of illogic.

"Why limit it to the kids of poor people, though, then? Why not just be that "humane" for the rest of them?"

-If you are using logic (which we already have established you aren't based off this absolutely stunning quote by you), you would realize that middle and upper class people can afford abortions, birth control and or to eat the cost of having the child. But therein lies your basic inherent misunderstanding of how socio economics works and how it applies out in the real world. You truly believe there are 'Good and Bad guys' in this discussion and that there is a hilltop to be 'won over' with enough of some moral quibbling. You claim to understand the issue yet these kind of retorts demonstrate just how much you truly don't understand even the fundamentals of how much subsidized abortion saves the poor in terms of opportunity and in direct everyone else's taxes in the long term.


 
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molten_dragon

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

Often, prolifers and prolife politicians claim that the government should not be allowed to spend money on abortions because that is contrary to some people's religious beliefs. And often spending laws and regulations are passed accordingly - claiming this is respecting people's beliefs and not making them pay for matters against their beliefs on abortion.

Laws that restrict, inhibit, confound or make abortions more difficult to obtain are against my beliefs. Should I also be able to demand the government spend no money on abortion matters contrary to my beliefs, ie no money be spend enforcing any anti-abortion laws.

If government bans spending money as prolifer's want it banned as violating their beliefs, should prochoicers equally be respected our beliefs in wanting government spending on anti-abortion actions banned?

What do you think?
I couldn't care less whether abortion goes against someone's beliefs. The government does tons of things all the time that go against various people's beliefs. So that's a terrible excuse.

My issue with government paying for abortions is that I don't believe that the government should be paying for elective medical procedures. I don't see the government paying for an abortion that isn't medically necessary as any different than paying for botox or a boob job.
 

AGENT J

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

Often, prolifers and prolife politicians claim that the government should not be allowed to spend money on abortions because that is contrary to some people's religious beliefs. And often spending laws and regulations are passed accordingly - claiming this is respecting people's beliefs and not making them pay for matters against their beliefs on abortion.

Laws that restrict, inhibit, confound or make abortions more difficult to obtain are against my beliefs. Should I also be able to demand the government spend no money on abortion matters contrary to my beliefs, ie no money be spend enforcing any anti-abortion laws.

If government bans spending money as prolifer's want it banned as violating their beliefs, should prochoicers equally be respected our beliefs in wanting government spending on anti-abortion actions banned?

What do you think?
question, how does government factually spend money on abortions? im not aware of this happening? what did i miss?
 

OKgrannie

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

question, how does government factually spend money on abortions? im not aware of this happening? what did i miss?
The government funds a handful of medicaid abortions, only those resulting from rape, incest, or threats to the woman's life.

Many states, however, funnel money to Crisis Pregnancy Centers, which are operated by religious groups solely to prevent abortions and are known to lie to women.
 

minnie616

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Re: Should govn't be banned from spending money on abortion matters contrary to belie

The government funds a handful of medicaid abortions, only those resulting from rape, incest, or threats to the woman's life.

Many states, however, funnel money to Crisis Pregnancy Centers, which are operated by religious groups solely to prevent abortions and are known to lie to women.
Looks like the state funded pregnacy crisis centers are not talking women out of abortions but also out of using birth control and condoms:



State-Funded Crisis Pregnancy Centers Talk Women Out Of Birth Control, Condoms: Report

Posted: 08/07/2013

When a woman walked into a state-funded "crisis pregnancy center" in Manassas, Va., this summer and told the counselor she might be pregnant, she was told that condoms don't actually prevent STDs and that birth control frequently causes hair loss, memory loss, headaches, weight gain, fatal blood clots and breast cancer.

"The first three ingredients in the birth control pill are carcinogens," the CPC counselor said, adding that she always tries to talk women out of taking it.

The counselor also told the woman that condoms are not effective at preventing pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases because they are "naturally porous."


"Safe sex is a joke," she said. "There's no such thing."

NARAL Pro-Choice Virginia recorded the exchange, released Wednesday, as part of its undercover investigation into the 58 state-funded "crisis pregnancy centers" in Virginia.

The organizations are part of a national network of about 2,500 Christian centers that advertise health and pregnancy services, but do not offer abortions, contraception or prenatal care.
read more:

State-Funded Crisis Pregnancy Centers Talk Women Out Of Birth Control, Condoms: Report
 
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