should Gerrymandering be illegal? (1 Viewer)

[My_name_is_not_Larry]

If you don't know what it is, click on this sentence.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Yeah, it should be. Congressional Districts should be drawn by impartial third parties.

 

[PeteEU]

Of course it should be outlawed.. its a direct threat to the very fabric of a democracy.

 

[Stinger]

Yeah, it should be. Congressional Districts should be drawn by impartial third parties.

People in coma's? Children? The village idiot?

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

People in coma's? Children? The village idiot?

Alright, if pure impartiality cannot be acheived, non-partisan or bipartisan committees.

The point is, the lines shouldn't be drawn by the people whose careers depend upon them. That's a classical example of "conflict of interest".

 

[My_name_is_not_Larry]

I.....I really don't know what stance I should take on this issue. Gerrymandering is what kept me in power for 2 terms. Yet, I always considered myself a crusader for the people's choice, gerrymandering undermines that.

 

[Kandahar]

People in coma's? Children? The village idiot?

How about a computer program that accepts certain parameters and then randomly draws them?

 

[Stinger]

How about a computer program that accepts certain parameters and then randomly draws them?

How about just having contigous counties with few exceptions voted on by the state legislature? It's their job I don't believe turning it over to programmers is necessarily the government I want.

 

[Kandahar]

How about just having contigous counties with few exceptions voted on by the state legislature?

Some counties need to be divided up if they have large populations. Even so, you can still make lots of funny shapes with contiguous counties. Ohio District #6 stretches from Mahoning County (near Cleveland/Akron) all the way down the Ohio River to Scioto County (at the southernmost point in the state)

It's their job I don't believe turning it over to programmers is necessarily the government I want.

If impartiality is the most important factor, a computer program that randomly draws them based on certain parameters is about as close to the ideal as we can get.

But if we don't want a completely random arbiter for whatever reason, let's at least let a panel of retired judges draw the districts. Yes, they could possibly be biased...but they'd certainly be a lot less biased than the politicians who have a personal stake in the shapes of their districts.

 

[Stinger]

Some counties need to be divided up if they have large populations.

Then drop down to municipality

Even so, you can still make lots of funny shapes with contiguous counties.

But it will at least retain some regional basis and courts can still review what would be easier to enforce than now. But simply do it by number of registered voters or previous census without regard to any other factor such as income, race, party affiliation, etc. Can you eliminate all political factors, I doubt it, but we could do better.

But it won't happen at least in the South due to the Voting Rights Act where the Black vote gets special privilage.

If impartiality is the most important factor

,

It isn't now due to political and racial factors. Regionality and common regional interest should be the primary factors.

a computer program that randomly draws them based on certain parameters is about as close to the ideal as we can get.

Who does the programming?

But if we don't want a completely random arbiter for whatever reason, let's at least let a panel of retired judges draw the districts.

Why would they be any less prone to support thier own political interest?

Yes, they could possibly be biased...but they'd certainly be a lot less biased than the politicians who have a personal stake in the shapes of their districts.

But are voted on by the people. How about a panel makes suggestions to the legislature which is made public and the legislature retaines their job to have the final vote?

 

[Navy Pride]

Gerrymandering should only be permitted if its the Democrats that are doing it.........:roll:

 

[Befuddled_Stoner]

Gerrymandering should only be permitted if its the Democrats that are doing it.........:roll:

Yes, because gerrymandering is a completely partisan issue of us versus them :roll:

Stinger, I have misgivings about allowing legislators to select who makes up their districts. The current approval ratings of 30ish% with re-election rates around 90% has soured my views on their impartiality in the matter. Programmers might individually have political biases, but couldn't that be mitigated by holding a competition to design impartial software that could be universally applied in any part of the country? Even in a worse case scenario, could they possibly do any worse than what we already have?

 

[Kandahar]

Then drop down to municipality

Municipalities aren't usually divided up as it is.

Can you eliminate all political factors, I doubt it, but we could do better.

Agreed.

But it won't happen at least in the South due to the Voting Rights Act where the Black vote gets special privilage.

Is there anything in the Voting Rights Act that explicitly specifies how districts should be drawn?

It isn't now due to political and racial factors. Regionality and common regional interest should be the primary factors.

Personally I think that having competitive districts should be the primary factor, but what parameters to use/not use would certainly be a better debate than congresspeople "debating" how best to draw their districts to ensure their reelection.

Who does the programming?

Programmers? What makes you think that an open-source program that simply accepted agreed-upon parameters wouldn't be fair? If the machine favored one party over the other or if it favored incumbents over challengers, people would notice.

Why would they be any less prone to support thier own political interest?

Because they don't have a personal stake in the outcome of the elections. It's not as good an idea as having a computer draw the map, but it's still much better than having the legislators whose election depends on the results draw the map.

But are voted on by the people. How about a panel makes suggestions to the legislature which is made public and the legislature retaines their job to have the final vote?

How is that any different than what we have right now? The panel makes suggestions, the legislature tells the panel to go **** themselves, then the legislature draws the map however they want.

 

[Stinger]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinger
Then drop down to municipality

Municipalities aren't usually divided up as it is..

But they are distinguishable for the surrounding county, so if the county had a large popualation relative to other counties, divided it by municipality.

Is there anything in the Voting Rights Act that explicitly specifies how districts should be drawn?

It can require for instance districts based on race and disporotinally give minorities more political power.

Personally I think that having competitive districts should be the primary factor, but what parameters to use/not use would certainly be a better debate than congresspeople "debating" how best to draw their districts to ensure their reelection.

I don't know how you do that and "competitiveness" shouldn't be the critieria anyway. If an area is primarily Democrat so what if it is a reasonably drawn district and the citizens there want Democrats or vice versus. You can get into gerrymandering to make them competitive. And as I said the Voting Rights Act can require some states to insure a Democrat district just because most Blacks vote Democrat.

I think regional interest should be the deciding factor. I recall living in Lousiana with predominately Democrat rule in the southern parrishs and Republican in the northern parrishes and the Democrats creating districts that "gerrymandered" north to dilute those votes. Anyone who had ever lived in Louisiana is well aware that the northern part and the southern part are like night and day in regard to their needs and policial interest. To get equal representation the districts should be by region without regard to political affiliation or race or income or anything else.

Programmers? What makes you think that an open-source program that simply accepted agreed-upon parameters wouldn't be fair?

Who's agreement?

If the machine favored one party over the other or if it favored incumbents over challengers, people would notice.

They probably wouldn't have a clue.

Because they don't have a personal stake in the outcome of the elections.

The judges? They surely might have self interest in them.

It's not as good an idea as having a computer draw the map, but it's still much better than having the legislators whose election depends on the results draw the map.

That's what we elect them for.

How is that any different than what we have right now? The panel makes suggestions, the legislature tells the panel to go **** themselves, then the legislature draws the map however they want.

It would be much more simplier for the public to see what a panel came up with and force the legislatures to disclose WHY they are changing it.

 

[PeteEU]

Why cant the US find a system that prevents as much Gerrymandering as possible by either party, when most other civilized countries can? If you ask me its lack of willpower and a political system that is not working as well as it should.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

People in coma's? Children? The village idiot?

It's hoped that if gerrymandering is stopped we can finally remove some of these people from office.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

The purpose of gerrymandering is incumbency.

The problem in America is ossified political concepts engendered by incumbency.

Clearly gerrymandering as it's now practiced is hurting the country. It always has.

Clearly gerrymandering of a different sort could fix the problem. What does gerrymandering do? It seeks to create legislative voting districts with a strong partisan majority to guarantee that a political party will hold that district's seat now matter who the candidate is.

Why not require that political districts have no greater than 60% of any one party's registered voters in it? That would liven things up, all over the place. This would almost certainly still require creative and whimsical district drawing, so the commercial artist's union won't be upset.

An alternative is to require that districts follow natural geographic boundaries, established political boundaries such as state and county lines, and that, in general, unlike in woman, political districts look best when they're big and blocky, and not skinny and stretched out on a sofa ready for action.