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Should flag burning be protected speech

Should flag burning be protected speech


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Bullseye

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I have found that opinion is often used in defense of ignorance.

I would caution you that opinion is acceptable in the absence of fact, not in conflict with it. You may quote me.
And yet you participate on a internet forum BASED on people expressing their opinions. I'd also inform you that facts are often used as the basis of opinion. Feel free to quote me.
 

noonereal

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And yet you participate on a internet forum BASED on people expressing their opinions. I'd also inform you that facts are often used as the basis of opinion. Feel free to quote me.

Your reply was nonsensical, but I suppose you do not realize that.
 

gdgyva

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i absolute detest it...but it is a right of those who wish to make a statement against this country

i served in the military, and to me someone burning the flag is despicable

but again....it is their right, and i wouldnt stop them
 

Eriech

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Not sure how burning anything qualifies as speach. Burning the Koran, burning a gay flag, burning a cross would all qualify as speach as well. Hell, burning an oldsmobile as long as it is yours free and clear......

IMO putting out a fire that is being used as free speach by any means necessary should not be a punishable crime. Stomp out the burning flag and the burner.....

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btthegreat

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I'm sure you realize that the right to do "what you want" with your property is not absolute, nor are any other rights; each has limitatios and restrictions to them. Even our vaunted freedom of speech has many restrictions on it.
Of course its not absolute. To pass a statute that infringes on free speech or association that involves conduct and symbols, as opposed to the written or spoken word, we already have long established precedent in Stromberg v. California, 283 U.S. 359 and Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District . SCOTUS has set up a standard, or test if you will, that provides government with a road map to pass such restrictions. This specific matter was already litigated Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. (1989)n Everipedia
 

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Stomp out the burning flag and the burner.....

That'd be assault, and IMO, you'd be the ****ter person for doing it regardless of how offensive the protest may be.

IMO, people who think it should be freedom of speech to assault people who protest in legal manners that offend them … I've seen the sentiment expressed on other places by people, but just feels incredibly stupid no matter who says it, or how I hear it phrased.
 

maquiscat

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Sorry for the confusion, I didn't say the FLAG GUARANTEED anything - it's the SYMBOL of the system that does.

That is exactly what you said. Allow me.to quote you again.

If we can argue under the freedoms guaranteed by that flag, rather than destroying it, we're screwed.

Now I will accept that it is not what you meant to say.


This isn't an issue of "valuing the symbol more than what it stands for" - that's a silly word game. Attacking the symbol IS attacking the system, that's the point of it being the symbol.

Maybe it seems like a silly word game to you, but I spent years of my life in the Navy to defend our freedoms. Our freedoms, not a piece of cloth. Mind you I do give all proper ceremony to the flag. In my current job, I work resale, or thrift store, if you prefer. When we get flags that are not in good enough condition to sell, I take them home to properly retire them. And it seems to me that attacking the symbol, as a symbol of problems in the system, is the epitome of the freedoms that the first symbol, the flag, stands for.

Look, we have many exemption to the right of free space - the classic "crying fire in a crowded theater", libel, slander, advocating the violent overthrow of government, inciting violence, threatening the President, etc. I just happen to think burning the flag should be included in that category.

Indeed there are limits to our freedoms. The classic "my right to swing my fists ends at the beginning of your nose". We are not allowed to use our rights and freedoms when they would violate others' rights and freedoms, or cause them actual harm against their consent. There is no right to not be offended, and offense is at best subjective harm, not actual harm. Burning the flag in protest causes no harm as long as it is the burner's own flag or one they have been given permission to burn.

The Vietnam era "in order to save the village we had to destroy it" was BS then, so is burning the flag to exercise the rights of the nation it symbolizes.

False comparison. The village is not a symbol of something, setting aside anyone can use anything as a symbol for something, but such is not the intent of the village. The village is the property of others and as such it was BS to "destroy it in order to save it." The closest that principle ever becomes legit is medicine where you might have to remove a limb to save the body. Again, the flag as a symbol belongs to no one, and the physical representation belongs to it's owner. Since it is his property he does with it as he wishes, sans where doing so causes actual harm to another or their property.

You're entitled to an opinion, and I support your right to express it; please extend that curtesy to those that believe as I do.

Where have I not done so? I have pointed out a conceptual error of yours, I have shown where you actually said what you said when you denied it, and I have expressed my own opinions. Where have I not allowed or supported you rights to an opinion or to express it?

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maquiscat

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Not sure how burning anything qualifies as speach. Burning the Koran, burning a gay flag, burning a cross would all qualify as speach as well. Hell, burning an oldsmobile as long as it is yours free and clear......

IMO putting out a fire that is being used as free speach by any means necessary should not be a punishable crime. Stomp out the burning flag and the burner.....

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Given the writings of the founders and the context of the other similar freedoms such as of the press, the actual freedom we have is that of expression. It's why we are free to do our art as we want as well. Additionally, being able to burn a flag would fall under personal property rights.

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d0gbreath

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If we make it illegal to burn a US flag, they will be burning all over the place. Best left as it is.
 

Bullseye

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That is exactly what you said. Allow me.to quote you again.



Now I will accept that it is not what you meant to say.




Maybe it seems like a silly word game to you, but I spent years of my life in the Navy to defend our freedoms. Our freedoms, not a piece of cloth. Mind you I do give all proper ceremony to the flag. In my current job, I work resale, or thrift store, if you prefer. When we get flags that are not in good enough condition to sell, I take them home to properly retire them. And it seems to me that attacking the symbol, as a symbol of problems in the system, is the epitome of the freedoms that the first symbol, the flag, stands for.



Indeed there are limits to our freedoms. The classic "my right to swing my fists ends at the beginning of your nose". We are not allowed to use our rights and freedoms when they would violate others' rights and freedoms, or cause them actual harm against their consent. There is no right to not be offended, and offense is at best subjective harm, not actual harm. Burning the flag in protest causes no harm as long as it is the burner's own flag or one they have been given permission to burn.



False comparison. The village is not a symbol of something, setting aside anyone can use anything as a symbol for something, but such is not the intent of the village. The village is the property of others and as such it was BS to "destroy it in order to save it." The closest that principle ever becomes legit is medicine where you might have to remove a limb to save the body. Again, the flag as a symbol belongs to no one, and the physical representation belongs to it's owner. Since it is his property he does with it as he wishes, sans where doing so causes actual harm to another or their property.



Where have I not done so? I have pointed out a conceptual error of yours, I have shown where you actually said what you said when you denied it, and I have expressed my own opinions. Where have I not allowed or supported you rights to an opinion or to express it?

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I too am a Navy veteran and I expect you, like I have lost a few friends and shipmates fighting under that flag. I also want to thank you for keeping our conversation civil.


Perhaps I'm being a little too emphatic on this topic but earlier in the week I saw some video of the protests in Hong Kong; One of the clips was of a large crowd waving AMERICAN FLAGS and singing the Star Spangled Barrier - it affected me deeply; If people half-way around the world can accord that much honor to the symbol of our country that they're willing to risk their freedom and lives to displaying it as a symbol of THEIR conflict I just think we should at least match them. I have no problems with protests and criticisms of our country, they are a vital part of our existence, I just get a little upset at disrespect the symbol of the system that guarantees our right to do so. It's like destroying your wedding ring because you have a fight with your spouse; the ring symbolizes a bond and understand far beyond what ever your current disagreement contains. Just my humble opinion. Again, thanks for the discussion based on facts rather than insults.
 

maquiscat

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I too am a Navy veteran and I expect you, like I have lost a few friends and shipmates fighting under that flag. I also want to thank you for keeping our conversation civil.


Perhaps I'm being a little too emphatic on this topic but earlier in the week I saw some video of the protests in Hong Kong; One of the clips was of a large crowd waving AMERICAN FLAGS and singing the Star Spangled Barrier - it affected me deeply; If people half-way around the world can accord that much honor to the symbol of our country that they're willing to risk their freedom and lives to displaying it as a symbol of THEIR conflict I just think we should at least match them. I have no problems with protests and criticisms of our country, they are a vital part of our existence, I just get a little upset at disrespect the symbol of the system that guarantees our right to do so. It's like destroying your wedding ring because you have a fight with your spouse; the ring symbolizes a bond and understand far beyond what ever your current disagreement contains. Just my humble opinion. Again, thanks for the discussion based on facts rather than insults.

Bubblehead nuke electrician. As such, there wasn't much in the way of opportunity, thank gods, for such direct loss, although I still feel keenly enough the loss of any of our siblings from any branch.

And I want to make it clear that I do not support the idea of burning the flag in protest. But to me certain ideals hold higher weight over others. Our freedoms are of a higher order than our symbols for me.

Nor do I dismiss the power of those symbols. Furthermore, I don't assume that such symbols don't also hold the same power for those who engage in actions such as burning the flag. I know we're I ever to get to a point of doing so, my message would be along the lines of this country is so betraying it's founding principles, that it is not worthy of the symbol. We're not there yet, but the likes of Trump and Hillary draw us closer (a topic for another thread).

I too appreciate that we are discussing this based not only on facts, but also respect for opinions whether we agree with them or not. Clear skies, shipmate.

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Bullseye

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Bubblehead nuke electrician. As such, there wasn't much in the way of opportunity, thank gods, for such direct loss, although I still feel keenly enough the loss of any of our siblings from any branch.

And I want to make it clear that I do not support the idea of burning the flag in protest. But to me certain ideals hold higher weight over others. Our freedoms are of a higher order than our symbols for me.

Nor do I dismiss the power of those symbols. Furthermore, I don't assume that such symbols don't also hold the same power for those who engage in actions such as burning the flag. I know we're I ever to get to a point of doing so, my message would be along the lines of this country is so betraying it's founding principles, that it is not worthy of the symbol. We're not there yet, but the likes of Trump and Hillary draw us closer (a topic for another thread).

I too appreciate that we are discussing this based not only on facts, but also respect for opinions whether we agree with them or not. Clear skies, shipmate.

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Fair winds, shipmate
 

mrdeltoid

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This seems like a relevant question, because of all the free speech debates.

It's a simple yes or no question.
I don’t care for it but yes.
 

SmartCat

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Burning the American flag is self destructive behavior by the left. The legitimate purpose of political dissent is to change people's minds. You cannot change someone's opinion, at least not in the direction you want to, by making him angry.
 

The Mark

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This seems like a relevant question, because of all the free speech debates.

It's a simple yes or no question.
Yes, absolutely.

To ban it's burning would dishonor all it stands for, or at least what I think it's supposed to stand for.
 

LouC

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This seems like a relevant question, because of all the free speech debates.

It's a simple yes or no question.

Burning a flag you own should be legal, in a situation and venue where the fire would not be harmful or dangerous to lives or property, or the fire otherwise be illegal, as a free speech expression of the person burning their own flag, it should be legal.
 

maquiscat

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Burning the American flag is self destructive behavior by the left. The legitimate purpose of political dissent is to change people's minds. You cannot change someone's opinion, at least not in the direction you want to, by making him angry.

That goes both ways. You will find it hard to change my mind if you make me angry by limiting freedoms and private property rights.

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Luther

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This seems like a relevant question, because of all the free speech debates.

It's a simple yes or no question.

No

Flag burning is treason

Your beef should be first with the vain citizenry and vain politicians
 

maquiscat

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No

Flag burning is treason

Your beef should be first with the vain citizenry and vain politicians
Restricting freedoms is even more treasonous. How does burning a piece of cloth, that you own nonetheless, harm one more that the loss of their freedoms? And keep in mind that I am saying this in the context that one's freedoms are limited at the point that they harm another, or restricts another's freedoms.

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Luther

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Restricting freedoms is even more treasonous. How does burning a piece of cloth, that you own nonetheless, harm one more that the loss of their freedoms? And keep in mind that I am saying this in the context that one's freedoms are limited at the point that they harm another, or restricts another's freedoms.

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Restricting freedoms is even more treasonous.

How about the freedom to just go and kill someone you don't like?
 

maquiscat

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How about the freedom to just go and kill someone you don't like?
Read what I wrote. That impinges upon the other's freedoms. How does burning a piece of cloth that you own impinge on another's freedoms?

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Luther

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Read what I wrote. That impinges upon the other's freedoms. How does burning a piece of cloth that you own impinge on another's freedoms?

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. How does burning a piece of cloth that you own impinge on another's freedoms?


You're barking up the wrong tree

The flag is the symbol of our country

Not politicians. Not government
 

Oborosen

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This seems like a relevant question, because of all the free speech debates.

It's a simple yes or no question.

Yes, it should be protected.

Though I will point out if someone is stupid enough to catch themselves on fire in doing so. That prospective rescuers should give them a chance to "simmer" on their life choices a bit.
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maquiscat

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You're barking up the wrong tree

The flag is the symbol of our country

Not politicians. Not government
Better check your own tree. The flag stands for the freedoms we enjoy. You want to take way freedoms. You are advocating to remove the very things that symbol stands for.

And I never mentioned politicians or government, so why the red herrings?

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Then would setting your house or car on fire also be considered free speech? Or perhaps a government building or vehicle?
What does it symbolize? Hate?
 
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