Should flag burning be protected speech

[SheWolf]

This seems like a relevant question, because of all the free speech debates.

It's a simple yes or no question.

 

[Fledermaus]

This seems like a relevant question, because of all the free speech debates.

It's a simple yes or no question.

There have been polls in the past. IIRC it has been 4 to 1 in favor of.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

This seems like a relevant question, because of all the free speech debates.

It's a simple yes or no question.

Of course. Opposition to flag-burning is moon-faced, gleeful pig-ignorance of this country and what this country is about. Mark Twain had it right over 100 years ago.

"You see my kind of loyalty was loyalty to one's country, not to its institutions or its office-holders. The country is the real thing, the substantial thing, the eternal thing; it is the thing to watch over, and care for, and be loyal to; institutions are extraneous, they are its mere clothing, and clothing can wear out, become ragged, cease to be comfortable, cease to protect the body from winter, disease, and death. To be loyal to rags, to shout for rags, to worship rags, to die for rags -- that is a loyalty of unreason, it is pure animal; it belongs to monarchy, was invented by monarchy; let monarchy keep it. I was from Connecticut, whose Constitution declares "that all political power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority and instituted for their benefit; and that they have at all times an undeniable and indefeasible right to alter their form of government in such a manner as they may think expedient."
-Mark Twain, A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court

 

[Bullseye]

I voted no. Since the flag is the symbol of our country and our country's constitution is the entity that guarantees free speech it would seem that burning the flag is symbolically destroying free speech. IF one feels the country needs changing then the tools and procedures to affect those changers are guaranteed by the constitution which is the framework of our freedom.

 

[washunut]

This seems like a relevant question, because of all the free speech debates.

It's a simple yes or no question.

Think you need a depends button. I would say no if you crash a fallen soldier's funeral and burn the flag. That could/should be construed as inciting violence.

 

[ttwtt78640]

This seems like a relevant question, because of all the free speech debates.

It's a simple yes or no question.

Assuming that the flag being burned is one's own property - yes. BTW, without making that assumption it is not such a simple question at all.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

This seems like a relevant question, because of all the free speech debates.

It's a simple yes or no question.

In most places it is, despite the free speech angle, an ass-kicking offense.
Besides, it sends the wrong message to the wrong recipients.
This is our flag. It belongs to the people.

If you want to burn flags, burn the flags of your states, or of the Senate or House of Representatives.

All that having been said, I would rather live in a country where flag burning is legal, but hardly anyone wants to do it, than live in a country where it is illegal to burn the flag, and nearly EVERYONE wants to do it.

 

[Phys251]

This seems like a relevant question, because of all the free speech debates.

It's a simple yes or no question.

Yes it is. I can think of nothing that signifies free speech more. :thumbs:

 

[Sabre]

I am a no. Perhaps I first get hung up on the idea it is a from of speech i.e., 1.the expression of or the ability to express thoughts and feelings by articulate sounds. To me it is a physical act akin to vandalizing property that is not yours with graffiti.

Too many members of my family have fought and died to keep that flag flying free, it disrespects their lives and our county. Although there are options for flag disposal, the only time the flag is burned is when it in the proper disposal of a damaged or worn out flag. They are usually restrictions on open fires so the VFW will take in flags for proper disposal, even my local library will collect them and turn them over to a VFW post for proper disposal.

 

[Felis Leo]

Yes it is. I can think of nothing that signifies free speech more. :thumbs:

According to the ACLU, marching through a neighborhood of Jewish Holocaust survivors carrying a Nazi Swastika flag is a close second, perhaps.

 

[Felis Leo]

Of course burning our flag is and should be protected speech. Just as you can hang a Nazi Swastika flag on your home. Or go up to a black family and tell them matter-of-factly how you wish that they were still slaves. Or openly denying the Holocaust. Or referring to all Muslims as a bunch of evil backwards barbarians. All of this is protected expression.

I would prefer knowing who the worst pieces of garbage in our society are by letting the garbage air itself out.

 

[Jason Warfield]

Let's just understand that the Supreme Court has ruled on this already; even Scalia went with it being a protected form of free speech, I point this out to those who don't think it should be and to remind them that their opinion is one thing...the law is another. And it is the law we all MUST follow regardless of opinion. And yes, as justices are quick to point out, their decision overrides the Flag Code on this matter.

Even if you are like me and think that its a stupid thing to do...it is a form of protest against the government wherein the government is not allowed to punish you. It was one of the cornerstone elements of why we fought for our freedom from Britain; we got tired of being punished when we thought we were being treated unfairly by our own government. The moment you allow exceptions you will have allowed the government to do more. To take more. To the point where it goes past the flag and into policy and law.

So while stupid, I'd rather have flag burning than the government being allowed to punish me or you when we complain about them on boards like these....

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Of course burning our flag is and should be protected speech. Just as you can hang a Nazi Swastika flag on your home. Or go up to a black family and tell them matter-of-factly how you wish that they were still slaves. Or openly denying the Holocaust. Or referring to all Muslims as a bunch of evil backwards barbarians. All of this is protected expression.

I would prefer knowing who the worst pieces of garbage in our society are by letting the garbage air itself out.

Of course the incredible thing is, we actually fought in a world war against the nation that the swastika flag represents.
We also fought a bloody civil war against the Confederates. Both the Confederates and the Nazis lost, we defeated them.

I do not know of any other country that permits the flags of its historical enemies to be displayed.
Maybe such countries exist. It would be interesting to find out.

I won't pick sides, but I am amazed.
And by the way, I do WANT very much TO pick sides, but I won't.

I guess there's an Orangeman for every Catholic.

 

[Felis Leo]

Of course. Opposition to flag-burning is moon-faced, gleeful pig-ignorance of this country and what this country is about. Mark Twain had it right over 100 years ago.

"You see my kind of loyalty was loyalty to one's country, not to its institutions or its office-holders. The country is the real thing, the substantial thing, the eternal thing; it is the thing to watch over, and care for, and be loyal to; institutions are extraneous, they are its mere clothing, and clothing can wear out, become ragged, cease to be comfortable, cease to protect the body from winter, disease, and death. To be loyal to rags, to shout for rags, to worship rags, to die for rags -- that is a loyalty of unreason, it is pure animal; it belongs to monarchy, was invented by monarchy; let monarchy keep it. I was from Connecticut, whose Constitution declares "that all political power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority and instituted for their benefit; and that they have at all times an undeniable and indefeasible right to alter their form of government in such a manner as they may think expedient."
-Mark Twain, A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court

How does one's loyalty to the country instantiate itself if one shows no care or regard for the country's symbols or to its institutions (including laws, traditions, culture, governmental institutions, etc.), Tanngrisnir? In what way is one loyal to the country? The literal soil of the nation?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Of course. Opposition to flag-burning is moon-faced, gleeful pig-ignorance of this country and what this country is about. Mark Twain had it right over 100 years ago.

"You see my kind of loyalty was loyalty to one's country, not to its institutions or its office-holders. The country is the real thing, the substantial thing, the eternal thing; it is the thing to watch over, and care for, and be loyal to; institutions are extraneous, they are its mere clothing, and clothing can wear out, become ragged, cease to be comfortable, cease to protect the body from winter, disease, and death. To be loyal to rags, to shout for rags, to worship rags, to die for rags -- that is a loyalty of unreason, it is pure animal; it belongs to monarchy, was invented by monarchy; let monarchy keep it. I was from Connecticut, whose Constitution declares "that all political power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority and instituted for their benefit; and that they have at all times an undeniable and indefeasible right to alter their form of government in such a manner as they may think expedient."
-Mark Twain, A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court

Big ups on the moon-faced part. Definitely moon-faced.

 

[Felis Leo]

Of course the incredible thing is, we actually fought in a world war against the nation that the swastika flag represents.
We also fought a bloody civil war against the Confederates. Both the Confederates and the Nazis lost, we defeated them.

I do not know of any other country that permits the flags of its historical enemies to be displayed.
Maybe such countries exist. It would be interesting to find out.

Too true. And we certainly fought wars against enemies who burned and desecrated our flag and everything that they believe it represented. Yet we let people engage in the behavior that enemies of our country did and still do.

I won't pick sides, but I am amazed.
And by the way, I do WANT very much TO pick sides, but I won't.

I guess there's an Orangeman for every Catholic.

Too true. But there is no way we can keep people from believing in evil things and displaying their evil beliefs without ourselves becoming the tyrannies we loath.

 

[Bum]

Yes.

The 1st Amendment was not written to protect popular speech.

 

[Captain America]

Yeah, it's protected speech. Long live free speech.

But that same free speech allows me to tell that flag burning piece of **** they can kiss my ass. Long may she wave.

 

[Rich2018]

This seems like a relevant question, because of all the free speech debates.

It's a simple yes or no question.

If you can prove that you own the flag, why can't you burn it or destroy is some other way?

 

[Tanngrisnir]

How does one's loyalty to the country instantiate itself if one shows no care or regard for the country's symbols or to its institutions (including laws, traditions, culture, governmental institutions, etc.), Tanngrisnir? In what way is one loyal to the country? The literal soil of the nation?

Oh, dude. Come on. The 'country' is an existential construct. A Platonic Ideal. There are some things that are absolutely essential to the core of what it means to be an American. Laws and institutions can change. We even have an overriding legal document and structure that allows for that. The symbols that people use to represent those things? They're cosmetic bull****. They could be changed in minutes, if not sooner.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

Too true. And we certainly fought wars against enemies who burned and desecrated our flag and everything that they believe it represented. Yet we let people engage in the behavior that enemies of our country did and still do.



Too true. But there is no way we can keep people from believing in evil things and displaying their evil beliefs without ourselves becoming the tyrannies we loath.

God damn it. I'm getting tired of this.

A flag, including our flag, cannot be desecrated.

Burning any flag, w/in the borders of the USA, is free speech, period, final, and done.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

I voted no. Since the flag is the symbol of our country and our country's constitution is the entity that guarantees free speech it would seem that burning the flag is symbolically destroying free speech. IF one feels the country needs changing then the tools and procedures to affect those changers are guaranteed by the constitution which is the framework of our freedom.

People like you make me ashamed to be an American, and make me reflect on Ben Franklin's comments.

Our constituion is not what gaurantees free speech.

It is extaordinary to me how ignorant people are of history.

 

[Bullseye]

People like you make me ashamed to be an American, and make me reflect on Ben Franklin's comments.

Our constituion is not what gaurantees free speech.

It is extaordinary to me how ignorant people are of history.

And how they try to substitute obnoxious bull**** for thoughtful posts.

 

[Phys251]

According to the ACLU, marching through a neighborhood of Jewish Holocaust survivors carrying a Nazi Swastika flag is a close second, perhaps.

Completely different discussion. Feel free to start a new thread on that.

 

[Fishking]

This seems like a relevant question, because of all the free speech debates.

It's a simple yes or no question.

Yup...while I think people are foolish for not loving our country, loving it shouldn't be compelled.