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SHould Europe have its own army?

CEngelbrecht said:
No, seriously, mate, what the fvck do you mean, "Not much"? Earn your position in the world, Yank. You must try harder.
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Oh I am agreeing with you. Look at who you are posting to v. the post that has drawn both our comments.
 
In hindsight, maybe Charles de Gaulle had a point about maintaining a European alliance like nato that was capable of being independent of the United States
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
In hindsight, maybe Charles de Gaulle had a point about maintaining a European alliance like nato that was capable of being independent of the United States
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It was never a problem untill Trump. Following a very strange POTUS election, that only benefitted an extremely hostile Kremlin. If Clinton had become president, Putin would be dead now.
 
JoanDavis said:
Yep - trump did say all this. I hope Europe - excluding Russia - forms their own army. They can't rely on the USA while the trump stench is there. Same goes for other former US allies like Australia and Canada.
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Great, let them and when Russia invades and goes through them like tissue paper, they'll be pleading for the US to save them.
 
jnug said:
It isn't a shortfall. The 2% guideline of their GDP is for their own defense systems! A Shortfall is something you can claim for a general fund.

It does not matter what "I am OK with". Its the deal we made. Unlike some Americans I am for keeping the deals we made. Much of the advancements that the world has made, advancements that we benefit from mightily were made because the world grew to recognize us as "reliable" as opposed to a bunch of crazed loons treating political rallies like rock concerts or stand up comedy shows and sniping away at everybody and his brother. "Hurray, government for its entertainment value....yippeeeee.....wooooo-whoooooo....pass the popcorn"
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The "deal" is that everyone kicks in 2%, not something less while the US puts in extra. We're more than holding up our end.
 
Slavister said:
Uh huh and you conveniently did not answer the question. Our spending on military is not NATO spending... it's our spending on military everywhere... So, again, what is it that you (or him) think that we spend specifically for NATO?
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The dollar figure doesn't matter. The combined wealth of all the other NATO members exceeds that of the US yet they spend less than half of what we spend on defense. Even Obama called some of the NATO members "free riders".
 
veritas1 said:
The dollar figure doesn't matter. The combined wealth of all the other NATO members exceeds that of the US yet they spend less than half of what we spend on defense. Even Obama called some of the NATO members "free riders".
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Provide indirect figure then... Other NATO members are not nearly as involved militarily around the world as USA is.
 
veritas1 said:
The dollar figure doesn't matter. The combined wealth of all the other NATO members exceeds that of the US yet they spend less than half of what we spend on defense. Even Obama called some of the NATO members "free riders".
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Also, original statement was that it would "save American taxpayer's a huge amount of money." I want to know what is that "huge" amount of money.
 
Slavister said:
Also, original statement was that it would "save American taxpayer's a huge amount of money." I want to know what is that "huge" amount of money.
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I guess you should ask the guy who posted it. I don't know precisely what we'd save as it would depend on the amount of extra money that would be represented if everyone else met the 2% guideline. I don't have that figure but you don't need it to know we pay a disproportionate share based on the 2% target.
 
ecofarm said:
Europe couldn't build an army to defend against Russia if it tried. Don't worry, we'll protect them.
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Considering even Italy has a nominal GDP about the same as Russia and there are 27 countries, you're obviously wrong. Stop overplaying the importance of the US like Europe is just a bunch of incompetent bumbling morons who would be invaded without the US.
 
independentusa said:
Trump complained that the European nations were not spending enough on their military. Now the French president has made the statement that Europe my have to build it's own army as it does not see the US as someone they can depend on to help keep hem safe from the Russians if the Russians attempt to take back those nations it lost when the USSR collapsed or against any US intervention. Now Trump says that Europe should not develop their own army.
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I live in the UK, and hate the EU. It's a corrupt boys club where a few rich countries pump money into a large hat so the poorer undeveloped countries can help themselves. Like everything that happens in the EU, if they had an army it would be paid for by a few countries, whilst the remainder benefits from the tax payers of other countries.
 
Mary Dunsmore said:
I live in the UK, and hate the EU. It's a corrupt boys club where a few rich countries pump money into a large hat so the poorer undeveloped countries can help themselves. Like everything that happens in the EU, if they had an army it would be paid for by a few countries, whilst the remainder benefits from the tax payers of other countries.
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So corrupt that they let Greece in when they knew that the Greeks were lying and also knew that Greece did not financially qualify to be in the EU.

They straight up did not give a ****.
 
jnug said:
Europe should not be re-militarized either nation by nation (an idea Trump would favor) or by developing a European Military Footprint, which will never hold up. They can't even make an economic alliance last, obviously. If it were not for idiot Trump nobody would even be considering supplementing NATO.
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There has been an economic alliance in Europe for over 60 years.
 
veritas1 said:
NATO states that all members should spend 2% of GDP on defense. Only five of them do besides the US. So, we end up paying for the slackers.
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No, it doesn't work like that.
 
veritas1 said:
NATO states that all members should spend 2% of GDP on defense. Only five of them do besides the US. So, we end up paying for the slackers.
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No...

The 2% is something that has that has to met by 2024.... so 6 years away.

EU member states spend 220 billion euros on defence and have 1.4 million active personel.

Russia, the so called enemy.. spends an estimated 70 billion euros a year and about 700k active personel.

So this whole discussion is really stupid. Strategic and tactically Russia would be out matched and out gunned even without US support in Nato. To attack Europe, Russia would have to go through Ukraine to reach any significant NATO country ( sorry Baltic countries ).. and while Russia has more tanks, EU NATO countries have more planes... so the only way Russia could win a war, would be to create a nuclear waste land which kinda defeats the purpose of any war...

Sendt fra min SM-N9005 med Tapatalk
 
PeteEU said:
No...

The 2% is something that has that has to met by 2024.... so 6 years away.

EU member states spend 220 billion euros on defence and have 1.4 million active personel.

Russia, the so called enemy.. spends an estimated 70 billion euros a year and about 700k active personel.

So this whole discussion is really stupid. Strategic and tactically Russia would be out matched and out gunned even without US support in Nato. To attack Europe, Russia would have to go through Ukraine to reach any significant NATO country ( sorry Baltic countries ).. and while Russia has more tanks, EU NATO countries have more planes... so the only way Russia could win a war, would be to create a nuclear waste land which kinda defeats the purpose of any war...

Sendt fra min SM-N9005 med Tapatalk
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Perfect....You say that Europe can take care of themselves and we say that we dont want to carry Europe around anymore and Europe has made it clear that they are not interested in helping more with the global police force cost......HEY an agreement is pretty clear here!

America leaves NATO ASAP, and Europe can figure it out.

Especially if the Europeans continue to be dicks.

I want a divorce!
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Perfect....You say that Europe can take care of themselves and we say that we dont want to carry Europe around anymore and Europe has made it clear that they are not interested in helping more with the global police force cost......HEY an agreement is pretty clear here!

America leaves NATO ASAP, and Europe can figure it out.

Especially if the Europeans continue to be dicks.

I want a divorce!
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I see what you are doing... you want to be spoon mate with Russia...that's why you are complaining.

You do realize the actual contribution to NATO by the US is small relative to its overall military spending. The US has few actual troops in Europe and those that there are, most actually support US operations outside NATO, so they can't be counted as part of the contribution.


By leaving NATO you would be costing American lives since you would not have access to Ramstien and it's hospital anymore and the actual savings would be small since you would not actually reduce US troop levels, but move them around and have to actually start paying in full for them.

Your Navy and Airforce would also be without bases in Europe so the lines of logistics to your oil wars would be very very long. Maybe you could bribe your way into a naval and airbase base in North Africa.... instead of Spain and Italy.

But then again Trump and his fans dream of the nightly pee parties with their good friend Putin, so **** American lives... you know like Trump did over the weekend..

Sendt fra min SM-N9005 med Tapatalk
 
The big wars have always occured BETWEEN Europeans. So who is this army supposed to guard against? China? Thats stupid. The US? Thats insulting. Macron has shown his stupidity with this idea.
 
CEngelbrecht said:
It was never a problem untill Trump. Following a very strange POTUS election, that only benefitted an extremely hostile Kremlin. If Clinton had become president, Putin would be dead now.
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So you suggest if she were elected we would have already fought WW4, the cold war being WW3? Question is, would you still be here to have written these idiotic posts?
 
CEngelbrecht said:
It was never a problem untill Trump...........
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Thats because Trump is a REAL American, not an arse-licker like the Kenyan socialist pig. Trump is making the cheese-eating bastards pay up for NATO and he is putting America first (thank God) and the Euro-Trash don't like it. Well SCREW THEM!!

Liberals always put everybody else first before their own country, whether its illegal aliens, Euro-idiots, Muslim fascists, or whatever. It makes me sick.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Perfect....You say that Europe can take care of themselves and we say that we dont want to carry Europe around anymore and Europe has made it clear that they are not interested in helping more with the global police force cost......HEY an agreement is pretty clear here!

America leaves NATO ASAP, and Europe can figure it out.

Especially if the Europeans continue to be dicks.

I want a divorce!
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Actually it sort of makes the point that we in the US get more out of NATO than we put in and quite possibly more out of NATO than Europe gets out of it. But you would actually have to do research to know that.

One simple piece of evidence in that. Who is the only NATO country to have exercised Article 5 of the NATO pact.........You guessed it folks.....the USA
 
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