Should doctors be required to give Miranda to pregnant women?

[Paschendale]

That's funny coming from a proclaimed socialist. LOL - come on, I know you don't actually believe that. You're not a libertarian.

What does a communal economic theory have to do with civil rights?

 

[CanadaJohn]

I feel almost the same way. I wouldn't necessarily say I abhor the thought of a woman having an abortion (for several reasons I won't get into now), I just know I would not want my child aborted. And that has nothing to do with religion, as I'm not a religious person and generally reject organized religion as a whole. I just love children.

Just to clarify, when I refer to "lifestyle choice" abortions, I mean those women who abort because having a child at that time in their lives conflicts with their current lifestyle, whether because they're starting a career, they're in school, they're not serious about the father, etc. - in other words, nothing to do with rape, incest or health of the woman or her fetus.

 

[Removable Mind]

As someone who is 100% pro-choice, I can tell you unequivocally that some of the people in this thread who would call themselves pro-choice would more aptly be characterized as pro-abortion. I think if they had it their way, every woman would have a doctor outside their house ready to rush in the moment a woman decides to even consider an abortion.

What so many in the pro-choice crowd, like joko and Juanita for example, don't seem to understand is the word "choice". They are so intent on arguing for abortions, they sometimes seem to forget the word choice.

Some food for thought...

I think that people who are pro-birth do tend to conveniently forget or ignore that the vast majority of conceptions are brought to full-term. And that abortion numbers are at their lowest in the country...and continue to go down because of better, more effective contraceptives...and access, and sex education.

And that in the U.S. that over 60% of abortions are performed 9 weeks and under. A 9 week fetus is as small or smaller than an kidney bean.

The balance of the majority number is about 25% 12 weeks and under.

So...we're talking about over 85% of the abortions are 12 weeks and under. The developmental stage of a 12 week fetus would yield a primal brain stem, the inability to feel pain, and the inability to be sentient or be aware of self or it's environment.

But the 20 plus week abortions only constitute 1.5% and those abortions are due to severe defects in the fetus or a major health risk to the woman.

But the thing I want to point out is "CHOICE" also includes those who bring their conceptions to full term. Given that...I support that "choice".

The rub here is "Motive regarding Choice". Pro-birth varies in opinion about allowable motives for choice in that some do make exceptions for rape, incest or the life/health of the woman. Again, that is employing "CHOICE".

And one problem I see in a lot of discussion like this is that many pro-life prefer to argue that the majority of abortions are because of sexual irresponsibility, which includes those described as women who have abortions as a substitute for birth control. Another is abortions for life conveniences.

The group that falls under "Life Conveniences" is indeed a very abstract and bears the need to employ subjective interpretation. In other words, be judgmental of a woman's "motives for her choice".

It is impossible to make a valid collective or individual judgement without knowing the full facts about individual lives of women who make the choice to abort. There are many reasons for which a woman knows that if she brings a child into this world that they can't provide. And we know that there are 10s of thousands of children in the system who will not be considered for adoption...even though they are legally adoptable. Many women do not want to produce a child of their blood and subject it to a life in which they have zero control.

I noticed in another post where you said that you love kids. That also is a "choice". So do I. In my past years I worked with high-risk children for years...and have represented children in CPS court as their Guardian ad Litem.

When CHOICE SHOULD NOT BE AN OPTION....

As a man...you should never have a choice to NOT ask a woman who you have sexual relationship with if she would have an abortion for reasons other than rape, incest, or life/health reasons. This IS YOUR responsibility as a man to ask this simple question. If her answer doesn't match your personal values...then you have serious decision to make about your relationship.

Questions to ask yourself as a man: Do I want government or other authorities controlling my reproductive rights? Would I be willing to defer my rights to my liberties as I understand them to be to governments or authorities? Would I be willing to surrender my rights to self-determination?

This is a complex issue. Having CHOICE comes with huge responsibilities and no woman takes them lightly.

Thanks...

 

[joko104]

:lol: How many times can you change your story?
:lamo

Ahh, I see. So now you've come to the idea those who are pro-life want women to have an abortion. Of course, why didn't we see it before?

Seriously, cut your losses and move on. Your entire thread is asinine. You've changed what you claim to be the focus multiple times and you're now standing before us claiming those who are pro-life want women to have an abortion. I'd also say your constant sexist comments about men suggest either a fair amount of self-loathing or the idea you might really be a woman who hates men.

^ Your concession statement. Or the topic is just too complex for you as you now lament you can't handle more than a single focus or single premise.

 

[Slyfox696]

^ Your concession statement.

:lamo

My concession to what? Your constant changing of your own shifting position or the fact you just said pro-lifers want women to have abortion? What exactly did I just concede?

Or the topic is just too complex for you

Stupid. The word is stupid. This thread is far too stupid for me or anyone else with a modicum of intelligence. You literally just claimed those who are pro-life want women to have abortion. That's all that needs to be said.

EDIT: Luckily it appears as if some decent conversation has sprung from this thread, despite you. I'll move on to them. You keep shouting how about pro-lifers want women to have abortions.

 

[Slyfox696]

Just to clarify, when I refer to "lifestyle choice" abortions, I mean those women who abort because having a child at that time in their lives conflicts with their current lifestyle, whether because they're starting a career, they're in school, they're not serious about the father, etc. - in other words, nothing to do with rape, incest or health of the woman or her fetus.

I don't even necessarily have a problem with those things. About the only objection I can see me having is gender selection, but it'd be kind of hard for me to be okay with nearly any other reasons except that one. It would kind of make me hypocritical.

Some food for thought...

I think that people who are pro-birth do tend to conveniently forget or ignore that the vast majority of conceptions are brought to full-term. And that abortion numbers are at their lowest in the country...and continue to go down because of better, more effective contraceptives...and access, and sex education.

I think part of my problem with those who are pro-life in this country is the fact they only seem to be pro-life when it affects someone else. The moment that baby is born and the mother needs governmental assistance, suddenly it seems as if so many of those pro-lifers are nowhere to be found. I have a problem with telling a woman she has to carry a full pregnancy anyways, but then to tell her she's on her own as well? That seems incredibly cruel to me.

But you're right, the solution is more about education and access than it is laws. But, of course, many of those pro-lifers are also of the opinion of "no sex in schools" or "abstinence only", so it's like...what do we do now?

[

But the thing I want to point out is "CHOICE" also includes those who bring their conceptions to full term. Given that...I support that "choice".

I understand completely. I am with you nearly 100% of that.

It is impossible to make a valid collective or individual judgement without knowing the full facts about individual lives of women who make the choice to abort. There are many reasons for which a woman knows that if she brings a child into this world that they can't provide. And we know that there are 10s of thousands of children in the system who will not be considered for adoption...even though they are legally adoptable. Many women do not want to produce a child of their blood and subject it to a life in which they have zero control.

This is my biggest reasoning behind being pro choice. While I have my own opinions, I recognize that my situation is not the same as another, and who am I to tell them what's best for them?

This is a complex issue. Having CHOICE comes with huge responsibilities and no woman takes them lightly.

I think this is where you really hit the nail on the head. Anyone making a choice like this should not give it only a passing thought. It should be carefully considered and properly educated.

Good post.

 

[joko104]

:lamo

My concession to what? Your constant changing of your own shifting position or the fact you just said pro-lifers want women to have abortion? What exactly did I just concede?


Stupid. The word is stupid. This thread is far too stupid for me or anyone else with a modicum of intelligence. You literally just claimed those who are pro-life want women to have abortion. That's all that needs to be said.

EDIT: Luckily it appears as if some decent conversation has sprung from this thread, despite you. I'll move on to them. You keep shouting how about pro-lifers want women to have abortions.

Passing a law that has the known goal of imprisoning women who do not have an abortion is pro-abortion.

 

[Slyfox696]

Passing a law that has the known goal of imprisoning women who do not have an abortion is pro-abortion.

A) You seem to have forgotten your entire point was about Miranda
B) You're assuming the law is about imprisoning women, as opposed to looking out for the welfare of the child.
C) You are sticking to your claim that pro-lifers want women to have an abortion

which means:

D) I think your extremism has gotten the better of you once more.

 

[joko104]

A) You seem to have forgotten your entire point was about Miranda
B) You're assuming the law is about imprisoning women, as opposed to looking out for the welfare of the child.
C) You are sticking to your claim that pro-lifers want women to have an abortion

which means:

D) I think your extremism has gotten the better of you once more.

A. Once again you make it clear you cannot handle more than singular thought or extended logic - and vehemently complain of my not keeping it simplistic for you.

B. Doesn't matter what the law "is about," but what the actual does. A woman who has or is using a substance that may harm a fetus, with such a law the result of not abortion is imprisonment.

C. Yes, I believe some ProLifers want the wrong sort of women to have abortions.

 

[Slyfox696]

A. Once again you make it clear you cannot handle more than singular thought or extended logic - and vehemently complain of my not keeping it simplistic for you.

No, I can handle it, it was pointing out how far you've come in your attempt to make your ridiculous point.

B. Doesn't matter what the law "is about," but what the actual does.

:lamo

Your exact words: "Passing a law that has the known goal of imprisoning women"

So when erroneously assuming the goal is beneficial to your case, it's the only thing that matters, but when reality comes knocking with the real goal, then it's not relevant. Got it. :roll:

A woman who has or is using a substance that may harm a fetus, with such a law the result of not abortion is imprisonment.

It should be imprisonment either way. *shrug*

Using drugs is illegal, one way or another. By the way, can you direct me to these laws you're referring to? Not some blog that talks about them, I mean the actual full text of the law, like the part where the law says they will not prosecute for drug use if a woman has an abortion.

C. Yes, I believe some ProLifers want the wrong sort of women to have abortions.

Half of the pregnant women, I believe you said, is that right?

Using your logic, those pro-choice people who protested at the end of the Wendy Davis filibuster a couple weeks ago only claimed to be against the law, but what they really wanted was for the law to pass. Right? After all, if the law passes, then they have a reason to keep protesting, but if it fails and never comes up again, then what do they do?

Using your logic, we must assume the pro-choice protestors actually wanted the bill to pass. So...does that make you pro-life then?

 

[joko104]

Your exact words: "Passing a law that has the known goal of imprisoning women"

It should be imprisonment either way. *shrug*

Using drugs is illegal, one way or another.

Then post your support of doctors drug testing every patient and reporting failures to the police if there is any integrity in anything you have posted.

 

[Slyfox696]

Then post your support of doctors drug testing every patient and reporting failures to the police if there is any integrity in anything you have posted.

I believe I already did. *shrug*

You should spend less time coming up with outrageous theories and more time reading. Especially your own posts, maybe if you read how silly your posts sounded you'd create fewer of them.

 

[joko104]

I believe I already did. *shrug*

You should spend less time coming up with outrageous theories and more time reading. Especially your own posts, maybe if you read how silly your posts sounded you'd create fewer of them.

Ok, so you're on record that doctors should drug test every patient they see and turn over the results to the police - and you have no problem of this in regards to the Bill of Rights, privacy, doctor-patient privilege, and searches without court order.

BTW, 2-1, the Supreme Court ruled I'm right and you're wrong, so the "silly" one is you.

 

[Slyfox696]

Ok, so you're on record that doctors should drug test every patient they see and turn over the results to the police

I'm on record as saying I'm okay with the law treating both men and women equally under the law. Nothing more, nothing less. But you keep on lying, whatever it takes to get people to quit focusing on the fact you claimed pro-lifers want half of all pregnant women to have an abortion and that doctors should read Miranda warnings.

 

[joko104]

I'm on record as saying I'm okay with the law treating both men and women equally under the law. Nothing more, nothing less. But you keep on lying, whatever it takes to get people to quit focusing on the fact you claimed pro-lifers want half of all pregnant women to have an abortion and that doctors should read Miranda warnings.

Your response is what attempts to divert.... ARE YOU STATING THAT DOCTORS SHOULD GIVE ALL PATIENTS DRUG TESTS AND GIVE FAILURE RESULTS TO THE POLICE? Yes or no?

No, if doctors are gathering evidence for police they should first give the patient Miranda, since the doctor is doing exactly the opposite of doctor-patient relationship.

Yes, anyone who wants to give a woman the choice between abortion and prison, tat person wants women to have abortions. It is prolifers who push for such laws - and prosecutions.

 

[Slyfox696]

No, if doctors are gathering evidence for police they should first give the patient Miranda, since the doctor is doing exactly the opposite of doctor-patient relationship.

Yes, anyone who wants to give a woman the choice between abortion and prison, tat person wants women to have abortions.

:lol:

I think I have proven these statements ridiculous enough times I won't do so again.

 

[joko104]

:lol:

I think I have proven these statements ridiculous enough times I won't do so again.

Your response is another attempt to divert your extreme desire for legal discrimination against woman.... ARE YOU STATING THAT DOCTORS SHOULD GIVE ALL PATIENTS DRUG TESTS AND GIVE FAILURE RESULTS TO THE POLICE? Yes or no?

 

[Slyfox696]

Your response is another attempt to divert your extreme desire for legal discrimination against woman.... ARE YOU STATING THAT DOCTORS SHOULD GIVE ALL PATIENTS DRUG TESTS AND GIVE FAILURE RESULTS TO THE POLICE? Yes or no?

As I said once before, I am saying I believe the law should treat everyone equally. I do not believe reporting a crime means a person is an agent of the police. I do not believe pro-lifers want half of all pregnant women to have an abortion. I believe you have a severe prejudice against men. And I do not believe you are anywhere near rational when it comes to the topic of abortion.

That's what I believe.

 

[joko104]

As I said once before, I am saying I believe the law should treat everyone equally. I do not believe reporting a crime means a person is an agent of the police. I do not believe pro-lifers want half of all pregnant women to have an abortion. I believe you have a severe prejudice against men. And I do not believe you are anywhere near rational when it comes to the topic of abortion.

That's what I believe.

4th time:

ARE YOU STATING THAT DOCTORS SHOULD GIVE ALL PATIENTS DRUG TESTS AND GIVE FAILURE RESULTS TO THE POLICE? Yes or no?

 

[Slyfox696]

4th time:

ARE YOU STATING THAT DOCTORS SHOULD GIVE ALL PATIENTS DRUG TESTS AND GIVE FAILURE RESULTS TO THE POLICE? Yes or no?

As I said once before, I am saying I believe the law should treat everyone equally. I do not believe reporting a crime means a person is an agent of the police. I do not believe pro-lifers want half of all pregnant women to have an abortion. I believe you have a severe prejudice against men. And I do not believe you are anywhere near rational when it comes to the topic of abortion.

That's what I believe.

Keep asking the same question and you'll keep getting the same answer.

 

[joko104]

Keep asking the same question and you'll keep getting the same answer.

No, you have never answered. Just repeated the same attempted diversions.

5th time:

ARE YOU STATING THAT DOCTORS SHOULD GIVE ALL PATIENTS DRUG TESTS AND GIVE FAILURE RESULTS TO THE POLICE? Yes or no?

 

[Slyfox696]

No, you have never answered. Just repeated the same attempted diversions.

5th time:

ARE YOU STATING THAT DOCTORS SHOULD GIVE ALL PATIENTS DRUG TESTS AND GIVE FAILURE RESULTS TO THE POLICE? Yes or no?

As I said once before, I am saying I believe the law should treat everyone equally. I do not believe reporting a crime means a person is an agent of the police. I do not believe pro-lifers want half of all pregnant women to have an abortion. I believe you have a severe prejudice against men. And I do not believe you are anywhere near rational when it comes to the topic of abortion.

That's what I believe.

It is my answer to your question.

 

[joko104]

It is my answer to your question.

Then you are refusing to answer:

ARE YOU STATING THAT DOCTORS SHOULD GIVE ALL PATIENTS DRUG TESTS AND GIVE FAILURE RESULTS TO THE POLICE? Yes or no?

as your reply is no answer at all. Just a slogan diversion.

 

[Juanita]

I'm thinking that comment should be in the conspiracy threads.

I'm thinking that you should pay more attention.....

 

[Henrin]

As I said once before, I am saying I believe the law should treat everyone equally. I do not believe reporting a crime means a person is an agent of the police.

If they are ordered to do so by law they are agents of the police.