Should church parishioners be allowed to arm themselves?

[apdst]

Nope, Don't own one either. No interest in them. Doesn't mean I have any issue with anyone else owning or carrying one.

Why are you discouraging people with your partisan, anti-gunner "you don't need it" argument, then?

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Why are you discouraging people with your partisan, anti-gunner "you don't need it" argument, then?

Since that's not what I'm doing, perhaps you should try again with identifying what my argument is. I have been VERY clear from my first post.

 

[Common Sense 1]

Where does God play a role in all of this? Do you think it was outside of God's will for the shooting on Sunday to occur?

“You know, evil is just a part of the world we live in. And as Christians we pray to God and we know that God gives us peace and comfort to get through it but he doesn’t promise us a world that’s not full of evil.”

A Fort Worth Associate Pastor Jeff Laster

 

[apdst]

Since that's not what I'm doing, perhaps you should try again with identifying what my argument is. I have been VERY clear from my first post.

That's exactly what your doing. Stop lying.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

That's exactly what your doing. Stop lying.

Nope. It's what you WANT me to be doing so it can fit into your neat little right wing hack mindset. But since it's not and since you can't debate what I AM arguing, you have to make something up.

 

[apdst]

Nope. It's what you WANT me to be doing so it can fit into your neat little right wing hack mindset. But since it's not and since you can't debate what I AM arguing, you have to make something up.

Lies and insults are all you have.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Lies and insults are all you have.

Since you are the one who is lying because you are incapable of debating me on what I've actually said, your post is ironic.

 

[countryboy]

Church shootings are nothing new. On June 22, 1980. Alvin Lee King III a former high school teacher killed five people and wounded 10 others at the First Baptist church in Dangerfield Texas. There was the mass shooting in Charleston SC, Antioch Tennessee, and now this terrible mass shooting by a lunatic at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs Texas. Is it time for churches to allow parishioners to arm themselves.

At the very least, its time for churches to take security measures. I'm not against parishioners arming themselves, but every church should have a security plan in place, which includes armed individuals.

The larger churches in my area use off duty police officers for security and traffic control.

 

[apdst]

Since you are the one who is lying because you are incapable of debating me on what I've actually said, your post is ironic.

My posts are just fine, since there's no way to debate someone who tells a different lie, after the last lie has been foiled.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

My posts are just fine, since there's no way to debate someone who tells a different lie, after the last lie has been foiled.

This post is ironic. I countered everything you said, so your only recourse was to lie about what I said. Standard apdst debating tactics.

 

[apdst]

This post is ironic. I countered everything you said, so your only recourse was to lie about what I said. Standard apdst debating tactics.

Lies and insults, from a mod who won't get gigged. Typical Captain Courtesy debating tactics.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Lies and insults, from a mod who won't get gigged. Typical Captain Courtesy debating tactics.

So, you don't want to address how you lied about my position in order to avoid the fact that I've completely skewered you in this debate? Doesn't surprise me in the least.

 

[apdst]

So, you don't want to address how you lied about my position in order to avoid the fact that I've completely skewered you in this debate? Doesn't surprise me in the least.

Are you going to continue to bait up the thread?

 

[cuban smokes]

Uh, no. The writer is not talking about worshippers who want to protect themselves and others.

then, we disagree; I grew up in the church, read the book thru & thru more times than I could count, Bible study classes, on & on, etc. ............

those that are in fear do not demonstrate they have the faith that they should have, thus their faith is weak.

Who are the “cowardly”? The Greek word is “deilos,” which is from a family of words that occur only rarely in the NT. This is the adjective; it is found here in Rev. 21:8 and in the parallel accounts in Matt. 8:26 and Mark 4:40. These texts are reporting the incident where Jesus and His disciples are in a boat in a great storm, and the disciples cry out, “Save us, Lord; we are perishing.” Jesus rebukes them thus: “Why are you afraid [deilos], O you of little faith?” (Matt.), or “Why are you so afraid [deilos]? Have you no faith?” (Mark).

The noun “deilia” is used just once, in 2 Tim. 1:7, “For God gave us a spirit not of fear [deilia] but of power and love and self-control.” The verb “deiliao” is also used just once, in John 14:27b, “Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid [deiliao].”

The basic meaning of the adjective thus is cowardly, fearful, timid, fainthearted. In these and in Christian writings in general the word does not refer to specific and usually mundane fears such as fear of water, fear of spiders, fear of heights, or fear of speaking in public. Rather, the word is used in a context of persecution, where one has to choose between taking a stand for Jesus and denying faith in Him. C. Spicq says this: “When Rev. 21:8 places the fainthearted and the unbelieving in the lake of fire, it has in view Christians during times of persecution who, out of a fear of suffering, renounce their faith. It is a commonplace that human courage and cowardice are revealed in the face of death” (“Theological Lexicon of the NT,” Hendrickson 1994, I:301).

In effect, then, such cowardice is similar to or even the same as unbelief. Rev. 21:8 lists the cowardly and the faithless together. In the texts of Matthew and Mark, Jesus equates the disciples’ fear with a lack of faith. The issue is whether we will continue to trust in Jesus and in God’s sustaining power even in the face of persecution and death.

God’s people have always been commanded to live boldly and not to be afraid of our enemies. As Moses exhorted the Israelites in reference to their physical enemies, “Be strong and courageous. Do not fear or be in dread of them, for it is the LORD your God who goes with you. He will not leave you or forsake you” (Deut. 31:6). And God kept His promises: “He led them in safety; so that they were not afraid, but the sea overwhelmed their enemies” (Psalm 78:53). David exhibits this spirit of boldness: “The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The LORD is the stronghold of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?” (Psalm 27:1).

This attitude of boldness, courage, and faithfulness is the point of Rev. 2:10, “Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life” (ESV). “Be faithful unto death” surely can mean simply “Hold on to your faith as long as you live.” But it can also mean, as someone has said, “Keep believing in Jesus even if it kills you.” J. B. Phillips translates it, “Be faithful in the face of death.” The Weymouth NT says, “Be faithful to the End, even if you have to die.” In this kind of situation, as the first part of Rev. 2:10 shows, the cowardly are those who renounce their faith in Jesus in order to avoid persecution and even martyrdom. (See Matt. 20:28.)

 

[Common Sense 1]

Here's another good one:

Psalm 91
1 Whoever dwells in the shelter of the Most High
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.[a]
2 I will say of the Lord, “He is my refuge and my fortress,
my God, in whom I trust.”
3 Surely he will save you
from the fowler’s snare
and from the deadly pestilence.
4 He will cover you with his feathers,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.
5 You will not fear the terror of night,
nor the arrow that flies by day,
6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness,
nor the plague that destroys at midday.
7 A thousand may fall at your side,
ten thousand at your right hand,
but it will not come near you.
8 You will only observe with your eyes
and see the punishment of the wicked.
9 If you say, “The Lord is my refuge,”
and you make the Most High your dwelling,
10 no harm will overtake you,
no disaster will come near your tent.
11 For he will command his angels concerning you
to guard you in all your ways;
12 they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.
13 You will tread on the lion and the cobra;
you will trample the great lion and the serpent.
14 “Because he loves me,” says the Lord, “I will rescue him;
I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.
15 He will call on me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble,
I will deliver him and honor him.
16 With long life I will satisfy him
and show him my salvation.”

Man who shot Texas church gunman says he's 'no hero.' "I think my God…protected me and gave me the skills to do what needed to be done."

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/927716513229897728/video/1

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Are you going to continue to bait up the thread?

Are you going to continue to refuse to own up to lying about my position? If you can't debate, honestly, I will call you on your dishonesty. So, my suggestion would be to stop doing it.

 

[apdst]

Are you going to continue to refuse to own up to lying about my position? If you can't debate, honestly, I will call you on your dishonesty. So, my suggestion would be to stop doing it.

If I was lying, you have my word that I would. But, since I'm not lying, well...

 

[it's just me]

then, we disagree; I grew up in the church, read the book thru & thru more times than I could count, Bible study classes, on & on, etc. ............

those that are in fear do not demonstrate they have the faith that they should have, thus their faith is weak.

Who are the “cowardly”? The Greek word is “deilos,” which is from a family of words that occur only rarely in the NT. This is the adjective; it is found here in Rev. 21:8 and in the parallel accounts in Matt. 8:26 and Mark 4:40. These texts are reporting the incident where Jesus and His disciples are in a boat in a great storm, and the disciples cry out, “Save us, Lord; we are perishing.” Jesus rebukes them thus: “Why are you afraid [deilos], O you of little faith?” (Matt.), or “Why are you so afraid [deilos]? Have you no faith?” (Mark).

The noun “deilia” is used just once, in 2 Tim. 1:7, “For God gave us a spirit not of fear [deilia] but of power and love and self-control.” The verb “deiliao” is also used just once, in John 14:27b, “Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid [deiliao].”

The basic meaning of the adjective thus is cowardly, fearful, timid, fainthearted. In these and in Christian writings in general the word does not refer to specific and usually mundane fears such as fear of water, fear of spiders, fear of heights, or fear of speaking in public. Rather, the word is used in a context of persecution, where one has to choose between taking a stand for Jesus and denying faith in Him. C. Spicq says this: “When Rev. 21:8 places the fainthearted and the unbelieving in the lake of fire, it has in view Christians during times of persecution who, out of a fear of suffering, renounce their faith. It is a commonplace that human courage and cowardice are revealed in the face of death” (“Theological Lexicon of the NT,” Hendrickson 1994, I:301).

In effect, then, such cowardice is similar to or even the same as unbelief. Rev. 21:8 lists the cowardly and the faithless together. In the texts of Matthew and Mark, Jesus equates the disciples’ fear with a lack of faith. The issue is whether we will continue to trust in Jesus and in God’s sustaining power even in the face of persecution and death.

God’s people have always been commanded to live boldly and not to be afraid of our enemies. As Moses exhorted the Israelites in reference to their physical enemies, “Be strong and courageous. Do not fear or be in dread of them, for it is the LORD your God who goes with you. He will not leave you or forsake you” (Deut. 31:6). And God kept His promises: “He led them in safety; so that they were not afraid, but the sea overwhelmed their enemies” (Psalm 78:53). David exhibits this spirit of boldness: “The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The LORD is the stronghold of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?” (Psalm 27:1).

This attitude of boldness, courage, and faithfulness is the point of Rev. 2:10, “Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life” (ESV). “Be faithful unto death” surely can mean simply “Hold on to your faith as long as you live.” But it can also mean, as someone has said, “Keep believing in Jesus even if it kills you.” J. B. Phillips translates it, “Be faithful in the face of death.” The Weymouth NT says, “Be faithful to the End, even if you have to die.” In this kind of situation, as the first part of Rev. 2:10 shows, the cowardly are those who renounce their faith in Jesus in order to avoid persecution and even martyrdom. (See Matt. 20:28.)

I am an ordained minister, not just another pretty face, and yes, we have to disagree.

 

[AGENT J]

Church shootings are nothing new. On June 22, 1980. Alvin Lee King III a former high school teacher killed five people and wounded 10 others at the First Baptist church in Dangerfield Texas. There was the mass shooting in Charleston SC, Antioch Tennessee, and now this terrible mass shooting by a lunatic at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs Texas. Is it time for churches to allow parishioners to arm themselves.

Let's see... how many church services occur in the US on any given Sunday... verses how many shootings occur in churches? Well, my guess would be that this happens so infrequently that the number cannot be calculated by anyone without an advanced degree in Mathematics. So, based on statistics, I would say that your question is a complete over reaction and one that has no merit. NO parishioner should arm themselves based solely on this ridiculous tiny statistic.

Of course if someone wants to arm themselves, as long as they follow the laws in their state, there is no reason why they should not.

:yt

I agree as long as it follows the rules and laws i dont see why not.

I actually have to admit that i have carried to my church before on multiple occasions over the years but not because i was going to church but because of what i was doing that day before or after and I carry probably about 50-60% of the time. That will increase once I ever get around to getting my next gun.

 

[pillars]

Man who shot Texas church gunman says he's 'no hero.' "I think my God…protected me and gave me the skills to do what needed to be done."

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/927716513229897728/video/1

If you have more faith in your gun than you have in your God, I think you need to reexamine your faith.

 

[pillars]

He would have been talking to a wouldbe attacker, not a defender.

The lack of logic displayed in this post is sad.

 

[SgtRock]

That's nice. It's certainly your right. But if you are going to do it because of the stats regarding mass shootings at churches, then the Church of Chicken Little would be the best place to pray.

I have had it with your insults and personal attacks. Do you know how to have a debate without insulting people? Enough already

 

[pillars]

I am an ordained minister, not just another pretty face, and yes, we have to disagree.

Your real life status is irrelevant. First, anyone can claim to be anything on the internet. Second, if you are in fact an ordained minister, it's interesting that you can't support your position using the Bible.

 

[pillars]

People protect themselves against things with very low probability of actually happening, all the time. Including you. Is it entirely necessary to mock someone for asking a question regarding church shootings and security? Geez.

Stupid questions usually get mocking answers.

 

[pillars]

“You know, evil is just a part of the world we live in. And as Christians we pray to God and we know that God gives us peace and comfort to get through it but he doesn’t promise us a world that’s not full of evil.”

A Fort Worth Associate Pastor Jeff Laster

I don't care what a pastor says. What does the word of God say?