Should all currently standing border walls be demolished?

[JasperL]

I don't follow your point. Walls, like locks and deadbolts, are not intended to keep away people you allow in and out of your home, correct?

My point is simple enough. We have about 1 million people per day pass through our borders at border crossings, 400,000 or so cars and trucks per day, and we allow 10s of thousands at least here on temporary work visas and other legal entries. In recent years the clear majority if not vast majority (I've read various estimates ranging from 60% to 75%) of 'illegals' entered here legally and just....stayed.

So the Great Wall of Trump is a lot closer to a bucket with big holes drilled all along the bottom of it than it is a prison wall.

And if you want to use our own home locks as an example, it's a pretty good one. Someone who actually wants into my house will be deterred for about 1 minute or so. Break a window, flip two window locks, raise window, climb in. And if I somehow 'hardened' my house, it might prevent someone breaking into my house, but anyone determined goes next door.

Someone who lives out in the country might as well not bother with locks, and from what I know of my friends in the country, mostly don't because they're worthless. What keeps people honest where I live now (never had a house key growing up...) is other people around to see the break in, not the locks on the doors or windows. Any pill addict with a rock can defeat those 'walls.' Since you need everything explained, that's the rough equivalent of a wall along much of our border - it won't be the wall that deters someone going over or under or through it, but lots of border agents, people on the ground, ready to respond in minutes.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

No. My problem with the wall is I don’t think the economic benefits outweigh the economic negatives. Tearing down structures that have already been built would also not make economic sense.

 

[Bodi]

For anyone and all who want to participate in the poll ---- for those who want The Wall (Trump's wall) and those who think The Wall is wrong or immoral -- should all currently standing border walls be demolished? Why or why not?

Hell no... more border walls. Higher border walls.

 

[Taylor]

My point is simple enough. We have about 1 million people per day pass through our borders at border crossings, 400,000 or so cars and trucks per day, and we allow 10s of thousands at least here on temporary work visas and other legal entries. In recent years the clear majority if not vast majority (I've read various estimates ranging from 60% to 75%) of 'illegals' entered here legally and just....stayed.

So the Great Wall of Trump is a lot closer to a bucket with big holes drilled all along the bottom of it than it is a prison wall.

Even if it's 33/66, I'm more worried about the 33% that aren't screened whatsoever than I am the 66% that go through a comprehensive screening process and overstay a student or work visa. That's not to say that you certainly can't attack both problems, or that pursuing one solution means you're ignoring the other. The bucket analogy doesn't quite hold.

And if you want to use our own home locks as an example, it's a pretty good one. Someone who actually wants into my house will be deterred for about 1 minute or so. Break a window, flip two window locks, raise window, climb in. And if I somehow 'hardened' my house, it might prevent someone breaking into my house, but anyone determined goes next door.

Someone who lives out in the country might as well not bother with locks, and from what I know of my friends in the country, mostly don't because they're worthless. What keeps people honest where I live now (never had a house key growing up...) is other people around to see the break in, not the locks on the doors or windows. Any pill addict with a rock can defeat those 'walls.'

Right now, the Americas look like a bunch of locked houses with not much inside. Then there's the US, which everyone knows is unlocked, and which has the best stuff to steal.

 

[Myview]

For anyone and all who want to participate in the poll ---- for those who want The Wall (Trump's wall) and those who think The Wall is wrong or immoral -- should all currently standing border walls be demolished? Why or why not?

Trump tossed out stuff in his campaign that were thought out but not investigated. The wall was one of those things. Republicans especially the Freedom Caucus have totally adopted building the wall. They believe immigrants legal or illegal mean democratic votes and a loss of American Culture. By what ever means they can Trump and like minded Republicans are on a agenda that they believe will suppress demographical change and Democratic votes and give them the best chance of retaining Republican power and making elections winnable for Republicans as far into the future as possible.

 

[JasperL]

Even if it's 33/66, I'm more worried about the 33% that aren't screened whatsoever than I am the 66% that go through a comprehensive screening process and overstay a student or work visa. That's not to say that you certainly can't attack both problems, or that pursuing one solution means you're ignoring the other. The bucket analogy doesn't quite hold.

Part of the problem is that we don't really want to solve the "problem" of illegals, because they make a lot of people a lot of money. I keep bringing this up because it's so typical of the disconnect, but dairy farmers in Iowa are chock full of illegal labor, because that's what they need to survive, and that includes Devin Nunes' family. Heard about them being raided? No, and in fact the story documenting all this didn't make a ripple in the news, because we (collectively) don't actually care. And the Iowa dairy farmers were big Trump supporters, including his crackdown on the border, but didn't want their own business to be disrupted..... of course. Which explains why the GOP pulled mandatory e-Verify from their immigration bills this summer.

Point is if you do the wall and not that other stuff, you're just putting up a symbol, pretending to do something.

Right now, the Americas look like a bunch of locked houses with not much inside. Then there's the US, which everyone knows is unlocked, and which has the best stuff to steal.

Except the vast majority of those coming to "steal" are getting jobs, ultimately, from guys in suits flying around in private jets and the "theft" is working a job for lower wages that may harm average American workers but benefit those guys who wield the actual power in this country and the rest of us with lower prices for food, hotels, housing, etc. And yet, the wall is just another way to focus all our anger and disgust DOWN to those immigrants who have no power. I just get a little sick of the hypocrisy.

 

[American]

The notion of border security is a joke. America has thousands of miles of borders and coastline. The idea that we could ever come close to stopping people from entering the country illegally is delusional. Not to mention the reality that 75% of undocumented immigrants come to the country legally on work visas and student visas and simply overstay the visas. A wall can't stop that.

And then there is, of course, the most obvious reality that immigration is actually a good thing. Even the illegal kind is beneficial to our overall economy. Immigrants generate significantly more wealth than they use up.

Horse****!!

 

[Taylor]

Except the vast majority of those coming to "steal" are getting jobs, ultimately, from guys in suits flying around in private jets and the "theft" is working a job for lower wages that may harm average American workers but benefit those guys who wield the actual power in this country and the rest of us with lower prices for food, hotels, housing, etc. And yet, the wall is just another way to focus all our anger and disgust DOWN to those immigrants who have no power. I just get a little sick of the hypocrisy.

I'd be surprised if that were true. At least in my neck of the woods, they are hired by small business or make small businesses of their own. I think homeowners are a primary source of income from landscaping to painting to home repairs. Restaurant work is another big area, along with agriculture. I have no anger whatsoever toward the immigrants themselves. Most I have met are great people with a fine work ethic and strong families. But, there needs to be a process.

 

[Kreton]

What, exactly, are those "better ways"?

The wall does nothing. No purpose. As long as we continue to make America appealing to illegal immigration they will come. A wall won't stop that.

Severely punish employers who give illegals jobs (like Trump). Severely punish landlords who house illegal immigrants. Do not give them any public assistance.

As long as America promises housing, jobs, healthcare, education, food ect they will come. Why would they not? The wall is stupid and pointless suggested by and endorsed by people with severely limited thought processes.

 

[ttwtt78640]

The wall does nothing. No purpose. As long as we continue to make America appealing to illegal immigration they will come. A wall won't stop that.

Severely punish employers who give illegals jobs (like Trump). Severely punish landlords who house illegal immigrants. Do not give them any public assistance.

As long as America promises housing, jobs, healthcare, education, food ect they will come. Why would they not? The wall is stupid and pointless suggested by and endorsed by people with severely limited thought processes.

Yep, just ask for an ID, make a copy of it, and then the employer/landlord are not guilty of intent making any such a law lack any teeth. Without mandating an eVerify check or having a national ID card that type of law would accomplish nothing. Not that congress would ever pass such a law or appropriate sufficient funds to enforce it.

 

[antiquity]

The wall should be increased in length but it is impractical and not necessary to have a wall along our entire southern border.

 

[JasperL]

I'd be surprised if that were true. At least in my neck of the woods, they are hired by small business or make small businesses of their own. I think homeowners are a primary source of income from landscaping to painting to home repairs. Restaurant work is another big area, along with agriculture. I have no anger whatsoever toward the immigrants themselves. Most I have met are great people with a fine work ethic and strong families. But, there needs to be a process.

What seems obvious to me is if the people who pull the strings in Congress were losing money on illegal immigration, we'd solve the "problem" in about a week or so. But the opposite is true, so whether it's guys in suits on private jets or just the normal bigwigs in 535 congressional districts who are more or less just the local business leaders doesn't matter much. The point is we aren't solving the "problem" because to those who matter it's not an actual problem at all but a system working well for them. What's not to like for the Nunes family about reliable, hard working, low wage labor, and why would they care about their workers' immigration status? Fact is there's nothing not to like and they don't care.

And I respect that you don't have any anger for immigrants, but surely you can see what Trump is doing and his rhetoric is ginning up a lot of anger towards immigrants. We spent 2-3 weeks leading up to the midterms with Trump criss-crossing the country ginning up fear about the caravan. All the focus (or 99% of it) from the WH and others is directed to the bottom, the powerless. How much focus has Trump directed toward the people who killed mandatory e-Verify in the House? Didn't even make it to a VOTE this summer....

 

[Kreton]

Yep, just ask for an ID, make a copy of it, and then the employer/landlord are not guilty of intent making any such a law lack any teeth. Without mandating an eVerify check or having a national ID card that type of law would accomplish nothing. Not that congress would ever pass such a law or appropriate sufficient funds to enforce it.

There is more to hiring an employee than just asking for an ID.

And in either case it doesn't change the fact that a wall does nothing to deter illegal immigration. It will have the same effect as a no trespassing sign.

 

[ttwtt78640]

There is more to hiring an employee than just asking for an ID.

And in either case it doesn't change the fact that a wall does nothing to deter illegal immigration. It will have the same effect as a no trespassing sign.

Not much as I can assure you while working as a self-employed handyman.

 

[Nickyjo]

They certainly have no intention of meaningfully addressing an issue that they think gets them votes.

Get real. As noted, Obama was referred to as the “deporter in chief” by immigrant advocates. Yes, democrats will not call immigrants names or spread false info about their behavior because of their Latino constituency, but the border has been enforced by both parties.

 

[Taylor]

Get real. As noted, Obama was referred to as the “deporter in chief” by immigrant advocates. Yes, democrats will not call immigrants names or spread false info about their behavior because of their Latino constituency, but the border has been enforced by both parties.

If it were being enforced, we wouldn't have an issue and wouldn't be talking about this.
Obama's inflated deportation numbers had more to do with a definition change than anything else.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

For anyone and all who want to participate in the poll ---- for those who want The Wall (Trump's wall) and those who think The Wall is wrong or immoral -- should all currently standing border walls be demolished? Why or why not?

I think we should have a poll that asks:

Should students be taught about False Dichotomies in High School so that they they avoid creating polls with an absurd premise?

 

[uptower]

There will always be border security: walls, barriers, fences and checkpoints where necessary and possible. News ones will be erected, old ones repaired or improved, it's fairly normal.

But the "Trump wall' as an idea is both foolish and immoral.

It is foolish because it'll be too big, too impractical, too expensive and doesn't really solve the problem when most illegal immigrants are actually visa overstayers.

It is immoral because as an idea, Trump never seriously intended it: he said it because it was xenophobic bait to his rabid base. The idea of it is to keep the 'swarthy Mexicans' out and make people feel both 'strong' and 'secure' - there's no plan for one on the Canadian border after all. The idea is that rather than the slow progress of border security upgrades, improvements and modifications that always continues apace, suddenly there's such a national emergency with foreign migrants (numbers are down but they're still brown) that a new big wall needs to go up right now. That's just playing on fear again.

And because he is not serious and just uses it to fire up his base whenever he's in trouble elsewhere.

 

[Josie]

I think we should have a poll that asks:

Should students be taught about False Dichotomies in High School so that they they avoid creating polls with an absurd premise?

What's absurd about it? If "The Wall" is "immoral" and shouldn't be built, then logically any existing part of "The Wall" already built is immoral, right?

 

[ALiberalModerate]

What's absurd about it? If "The Wall" is "immoral" and shouldn't be built, then logically any existing part of "The Wall" already built is immoral, right?

^

This is a perfect example of what I was referring to. For example, just because it makes sense to have a wall or fence around a swimming pool does not mean we should require them for everything else. Similarly, just because we do not require every backyard to be fenced, does not mean that insurers should stop requiring a fence around a swimming pool.

In the case of border walls. In a small area where you have two urban areas meeting at a national border and you do not have any natural barrier that prevents easy crossing between those two borders, it can make sense to have a wall in that area. That does not then mean it makes sense to have a wall for the thousands of miles of border those two countries may share.

 

[Rogue Valley]

I've never encountered a wall that is impermeable. The very premise that a wall in itself can assure security is absurd.

 

[Josie]

^

This is a perfect example of what I was referring to. For example, just because it makes sense to have a wall or fence around a swimming pool does not mean we should require them for everything else. Similarly, just because we do not require every backyard to be fenced, does not mean that insurers should stop requiring a fence around a swimming pool.

In the case of border walls. In a small area where you have two urban areas meeting at a national border and you do not have any natural barrier that prevents easy crossing between those two borders, it can make sense to have a wall in that area. That does not then mean it makes sense to have a wall for the thousands of miles of border those two countries may share.

Then your answer is the second option in the poll.

 

[Josie]

I've never encountered a wall that is impermeable. The very premise that a wall in itself can assure security is absurd.

Do you feel the same way about the lock on your front door?

 

[chuckiechan]

The simple fact is that neither party's congress critters want to alter that which gets them re-elected at a rate of over 90%. Rest assured that if the major campaign cash donors actually wanted a different policy then it would have been enacted long ago. Keeping immigration as "an issue" is working just fine for congress critters as is continued federal deficit spending - let's pass another CR, take a long vacation and promise to deal with those pesky "issues" later.

As they say, "Democrats what them to vote and not work, Republicans want them to work and not vote".

The only thing that will get a democrat congress on board is when they take the presidency and have enough illegals in the country to grant amnesty to that guarantees them power as far as the eye can see.

That is what excusing illegal immigration has always been about.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I'd be surprised if that were true. At least in my neck of the woods, they are hired by small business or make small businesses of their own. I think homeowners are a primary source of income from landscaping to painting to home repairs. Restaurant work is another big area, along with agriculture. I have no anger whatsoever toward the immigrants themselves. Most I have met are great people with a fine work ethic and strong families. But, there needs to be a process.

Maybe when your side finally tires of accusing liberals of "wanting open borders", we'll be able to have a rational discussion.
But this stupid Trump wall is a dick measuring contest, and there are, as illustrated, lots of better ways to combat illegal immigration, and we already have laws on the books that we're not enforcing strictly enough anyway.

I'm a liberal, and I am in favor of a more "merit based" approach, I am in favor of increased border security, and as a Californian, I am even in favor of making several major adjustments to our so called "sanctuary cities" laws to take into account the fact that criminals are slipping through the cracks when they shouldn't.

But you guys go ahead and keep up with the nonsense, and Josie and the rest of you can keep putting up stupid polls as a "gotcha!" and celebrate it. Meanwhile, let's not lose sight of the fact that this wall was supposed to be PAID FOR BY MEXICO.

Remember? Of course not.

Cue Trumpian excuses, dodging, goalpost moving, deflection and projection in 3--2--1....