Should all currently standing border walls be demolished?

[azgreg]

OK, and it's not being used because...

What makes you think it's not being used already?

Towers along Arizona-Mexico border provide around-the-clock surveillance

PHOENIX — A company producing surveillance towers for federal agents along Arizona’s southern border with Mexico said its technology is proving to be effective.

Elbit Systems of America has 55 towers deployed along the Arizona border. They’re part of the integrated fixed towers system.

Gordon Kesting, the company’s vice president of homeland security solutions, said the system provides around-the-clock surveillance using radars and cameras that are mounted on the towers. It allows Border Patrol agents stationed in command centers to detect activity coming over the border.

“The agents are able to then use the system with the cameras to see what the activity is in detail that’s coming at them, so that they can deploy the appropriate response,” he said.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/13/half-us-mexico-border-patrolled-drone

The US government now patrols nearly half the Mexican border by drones alone in a largely unheralded shift to control desolate stretches where there are no agents, camera towers, ground sensors or fences, and it plans to expand the strategy to the Canadian border.

It represents a significant departure from a decades-old approach that emphasizes boots on the ground and fences. Since 2000, the number of border patrol agents on the 1,954-mile border more than doubled to surpass 18,000 and fencing multiplied nine times to 700 miles.

Under the new approach, Predator Bs sweep remote mountains, canyons and rivers with a high-resolution video camera and return within three days for another video in the same spot, according to two officials with direct knowledge of the effort on condition of anonymity because details have not been made public.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Yeah, anything that is not 1000% effective at totally fixing a problem is stupid.

Has it ever occurred to you that demorat opposition to having more border wall might be because it is effective?

 

[MrWonka]

Nonsense, the reason that illegal immigrants can (and do) support themselves and their dependents working those "bad" jobs is simply that they are expected to.

If you're just going to ignore valid points then quit wasting our time.

US citizens, on the other hand, are offered "safety net" alternatives so they simply elect not to do so. Part-time McJob + "safety net" > full-time "bad" job is the basic economic reality.

Hey here's an idea. If you believe this is true then why don't you just demand that the companies which hire these people pay living wages so we don't need a safety net?

 

[MrWonka]

Has it ever occurred to you that demorat opposition to having more border wall might be because it is effective?

Effective at saying "**** You" to your neighbors maybe.

It's a wall dude. It's almost 2019. They have ladders now. Shovels have existed for some time. Boats go around walls. 75% of undocumented immigrants come here legally and simply overstay their visas. Walls can't stop that.

Remember when we had a Republican president who demanded Russia tear down a wall? Now we have a Republican taking his orders from Russia trying to build a wall.

 

[Taylor]

Has it ever occurred to you that demorat opposition to having more border wall might be because it is effective?

They certainly have no intention of meaningfully addressing an issue that they think gets them votes.

 

[ttwtt78640]

If you're just going to ignore valid points then quit wasting our time.


Hey here's an idea. If you believe this is true then why don't you just demand that the companies which hire these people pay living wages so we don't need a safety net?

Folks just might complain if wages were based on a worker's household need/size rather than the job performed. I agree that the current "safety net" system seems to run counter to the equal pay for equal work concept.

 

[MrWonka]

The notion of prosecuting people for murder is a joke. America has hundreds of millions of citizens. The idea that we could ever come close to stopping people from committing murder is delusional.

Right... Whose point do you think you're making here? Laws against Murder really don't prevent murder. What you've made here is an excellent argument against the death penalty. Generally, laws against Murder are designed to make the murder pay for their crimes so you don't end up with vigilante revenge situations from family and friends.

Murder is also universally a bad thing. If laws against it can even prevent some of it that's easily worth it. But when it comes to enforcement of immigration it generally hurts the good immigrants more so than the bad. I listen to right-wing idiots talk about how if you ban guns, the bad guys will still get them. It's only the good guys who will follow the laws. The same is true about your stupid wall. If it stops anybody it will undoubtedly stop the good immigrants who are struggling and looking for work. The drug dealers will easily have the resources to get around it.

 

[ttwtt78640]

They certainly have no intention of meaningfully addressing an issue that they think gets them votes.

That is true of both parties - keeping illegal immigration as "an issue" costs nothing and can be accomplished simply by passing another CR. Some congress critters like the current situation because it keeps wages down and others like it because it makes favorable demographic changes and there are not enough outside of those two groups to make any difference.

 

[MrWonka]

They certainly have no intention of meaningfully addressing an issue that they think gets them votes.

Democrats would love nothing more than to pass immigration reform which would update our immigration system and put in place more rational policies so that more good immigrant can come here. If we did that you'll find that almost nobody would be trying to illegally cross our boarders anyway.

 

[Taylor]

Right... Whose point do you think you're making here? Laws against Murder really don't prevent murder. What you've made here is an excellent argument against the death penalty. Generally, laws against Murder are designed to make the murder pay for their crimes so you don't end up with vigilante revenge situations from family and friends.

Making light of your poor reasoning. If you don't like murder, pick just about anything government does. Almost nothing is expected to be 100% effective, so suggesting that the wall is a bad idea because it won't be 100% effective is just silly.

 

[VanceMack]

SO leftist WANT the walls...the existing walls...because they are necessary. they DONT want additional walls...because they are UNNECESSARY...even though we KNOW illegal immigrants continue to pour across the un-walled and unsecured border.

Brilliant.

Democrats VOTE for border security...but then refuse to fund border security. Democrats TALK tough about illegal immigration, then encourage caravans of thousands to subvert immigration law and refuse to act on existing immigration law.

 

[Fledermaus]

The notion of border security is a joke. America has thousands of miles of borders and coastline. The idea that we could ever come close to stopping people from entering the country illegally is delusional. Not to mention the reality that 75% of undocumented immigrants come to the country legally on work visas and student visas and simply overstay the visas. A wall can't stop that.

And then there is, of course, the most obvious reality that immigration is actually a good thing. Even the illegal kind is beneficial to our overall economy. Immigrants generate significantly more wealth than they use up.

Immigration IS good.

Legal immigration that is.

 

[Taylor]

Democrats would love nothing more than to pass immigration reform

History suggests otherwise.

 

[Fledermaus]

Democrats would love nothing more than to pass immigration reform which would update our immigration system and put in place more rational policies so that more good immigrant can come here. If we did that you'll find that almost nobody would be trying to illegally cross our boarders anyway.

Incorrect. There are always more applicants than seats at the table.

 

[Taylor]

That is true of both parties - keeping illegal immigration as "an issue" costs nothing and can be accomplished simply by passing another CR.

Very true. That's why Trump is President, and why voters flocked to other candidates seen as "outsiders" during the primaries. People are fed up with politicians (in both major parties) pretending to care about issues they clearly have no intention of addressing.

 

[MrWonka]

Yep, and you have removed all locks from your home because of pry bars, bolt cutters, saws, and stuff.

In the case of your home or car simply making it harder to get in can be effective because the extra time and noise it would take to get through exposes a criminal longer and increases their likelihood of getting caught in the act. The criminal can be arrested if he's seen or heard breaking windows, kicking in doors, or sawing locks.

With the border, you're talking about thousands of miles of desert, and you can't arrest someone until they get to your side. The immigrant can simply wait until the coast is clear before setting up his ladder.

Your car door locks and home locks are generally effective against the opportunist or casual burglar. Some guy walking through a parking lot checking car door handles could be deterred, but criminals who know what they're doing and are serious about getting into your car or home will come with a plan and easily get it in. Border crossers don't just casually decide to randomly cross the border. They always come with a plan ahead of time. The effect will not be the same.

 

[Fledermaus]

Effective at saying "**** You" to your neighbors maybe.

It's a wall dude. It's almost 2019. They have ladders now. Shovels have existed for some time. Boats go around walls. 75% of undocumented immigrants come here legally and simply overstay their visas. Walls can't stop that.

Remember when we had a Republican president who demanded Russia tear down a wall? Now we have a Republican taking his orders from Russia trying to build a wall.

Back then, Border Patrol agent Jim Henry says he was overwhelmed by the stream of immigrants who crossed into the United States illegally just in that sector.

"It was an area that was out of control," Henry says. "There were over 100,000 aliens crossing through this area a year."

Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector. He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double -- and in some places, triple -- fencing.
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5323928

You were saying?

 

[MrWonka]

Incorrect. There are always more applicants than seats at the table.

False. That's why we saw during the last great recession that net migration actually went negative. Supply will match demand. If there's no demand the supply will leave. Of course what always boggles my mind is how people who claim to support Supply Side economics can't grasp the reality that a supply of immigrants actually can increase demand.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Very true. That's why Trump is President, and why voters flocked to other candidates seen as "outsiders" during the primaries. People are fed up with politicians (in both major parties) pretending to care about issues they clearly have no intention of addressing.

Nope, the proof is the congressional re-election rate of over 90%. The people simply select among those offered up by the big money donors largely based on party label. I am willing to bet that most could not even name their current three congress critters.

 

[MrWonka]

largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double -- and in some places, triple -- fencing.[/B]

You were saying?

People will follow the path of least resistance. If you put a wall up on the California border people will cross in Arizona. That doesn't mean the number of immigrants was reduced. You simply changed how and where they crossed.

Again, it's like cars in a parking lot. If 9 out of 10 cars are locked, the burglar will steal the change out of the one car that's not locked. But if all the cars are locked, and the criminal is still desperate for change then he'll break a window to get to the change.

 

[Fledermaus]

False. That's why we saw during the last great recession that net migration actually went negative. Supply will match demand. If there's no demand the supply will leave. Of course what always boggles my mind is how people who claim to support Supply Side economics can't grasp the reality that a supply of immigrants actually can increase demand.

According to Pew, key factors in the decline are the Great Recession, which meant U.S. job losses in construction and other sectors where Mexican immigrants are likely to work; a rising number of deportations; and increasing numbers of U.S. Border Patrol agents.

Immigration experts from a variety of think tanks said Pew’s research on illegal immigration is well respected and saw no reason to doubt its methodology.

The change in migration patterns is also reflected in the number of apprehensions on the Mexican border by the U.S. Border Patrol. About 191,000 Mexicans were apprehended along the southern border in the 2016 fiscal year. At the peak of Mexican immigration in 2007, the Border Patrol apprehended 809,000 Mexicans.

Overall, illegal immigration was largely static from 2009 to 2014, as the drop in Mexican immigration was mostly offset by an increase from other areas, such as Central America and Asia. (In 2014 the two regions combined for an estimated 3.2 million illegal immigrants, just over half the total from Mexico.)
https://www.politifact.com/wisconsi...periencing-net-outflow-illegal-undocumented-/

 

[Fledermaus]

People will follow the path of least resistance. If you put a wall up on the California border people will cross in Arizona. That doesn't mean the number of immigrants was reduced. You simply changed how and where they crossed.

Again, it's like cars in a parking lot. If 9 out of 10 cars are locked, the burglar will steal the change out of the one car that's not locked. But if all the cars are locked, and the criminal is still desperate for change then he'll break a window to get to the change.

Derp....

Continue the wall.

 

[JasperL]

I think all walls, border or not, should be demolished. They don't work because, like, ladders and stuff.

Do you allow, say, 100 people in and out of your home a day? If you do, I'd suggest your "wall" isn't doing a lot of good. The wall will do less good if you allow 5-10 in per day for temporary lodging.

 

[Taylor]

Do you allow, say, 100 people in and out of your home a day? If you do, I'd suggest your "wall" isn't doing a lot of good. The wall will do less good if you allow 5-10 in per day for temporary lodging.

I don't follow your point. Walls, like locks and deadbolts, are not intended to keep away people you allow in and out of your home, correct?

 

[gulfman]

I don't follow your point. Walls, like locks and deadbolts, are not intended to keep away people you allow in and out of your home, correct?

They are intended to keep the honest people out not the dishonest ones