Should all currently standing border walls be demolished?

[Josie]

For anyone and all who want to participate in the poll ---- for those who want The Wall (Trump's wall) and those who think The Wall is wrong or immoral -- should all currently standing border walls be demolished? Why or why not?

 

[azgreg]

I don't think so. I'm not a fan of a complete border wall but I think that in areas of towns (El Paso, Tijuana, etc.) they are a necessity. In the open areas there are better ways to secure the border without disrupting private property and environmental areas.

 

[ttwtt78640]

That is a good question. If added border barriers are "immoral" then surely the existing barriers are as well. If we are not going to bother to deport foreign nationals inside the US without permission then why bother to make unauthorized entry a tad more difficult?

 

[Lutherf]

The only border walls that should be destroyed are the ones Trump put up or wants to put up. The ones that were there before him and the ones that go up after him are fine.

 

[MrWonka]

For anyone and all who want to participate in the poll ---- for those who want The Wall (Trump's wall) and those who think The Wall is wrong or immoral -- should all currently standing border walls be demolished? Why or why not?

The notion of border security is a joke. America has thousands of miles of borders and coastline. The idea that we could ever come close to stopping people from entering the country illegally is delusional. Not to mention the reality that 75% of undocumented immigrants come to the country legally on work visas and student visas and simply overstay the visas. A wall can't stop that.

And then there is, of course, the most obvious reality that immigration is actually a good thing. Even the illegal kind is beneficial to our overall economy. Immigrants generate significantly more wealth than they use up.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I don't think so. I'm not a fan of a complete border wall but I think that in areas of towns (El Paso, Tijuana, etc.) they are a necessity. In the open areas there are better ways to secure the border without disrupting private property and environmental areas.

What, exactly, are those "better ways"?

 

[OlNate]

What, exactly, are those "better ways"?

How about heavily penalizing businesses that employ illegal workers? Like, put them out of business completely. Wouldn't the prospect of not being able to support themselves when they get there deter a lot of them? Seems like it would be easier too - if you could go after one business or 200 Mexicans, wouldn't that be a more efficient use of time?

Fully admitting I don't have the level of understanding around this issue as you guys, it's just seemed like the easier solution, would love to hear your thoughts on it.

Also...per your other comment (didn't bother to quote, you know what you said...hehe), I'm not sure walls themselves have ever been called "immoral", that I've seen. Inefficient, ineffective, waste of money, sure...but the only time I saw "immoral" used was in response to problematic treatment of illegal immigrants, not so much the laws that exist around border control.

 

[ttwtt78640]

The notion of border security is a joke. America has thousands of miles of borders and coastline. The idea that we could ever come close to stopping people from entering the country illegally is delusional. Not to mention the reality that 75% of undocumented immigrants come to the country legally on work visas and student visas and simply overstay the visas. A wall can't stop that.

And then there is, of course, the most obvious reality that immigration is actually a good thing. Even the illegal kind is beneficial to our overall economy. Immigrants generate significantly more wealth than they use up.

How, exactly, is that (bolded above) possible since a far larger proportion of illegal immigrants lack a HS education or speak English? If we expect illegal immigrants to support themselves (and their dependents?) without public assistance then why not expect (demand?) the same of US citizens?

 

[azgreg]

What, exactly, are those "better ways"?

An example:

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/smart-border-control-project/

What University of Arizona researchers have been working on is an autonomous artificial intelligence framework that uses real-time data to work out how best to deploy various high-tech resource — ranging from ground vehicles and drones to smart sensors, and other technologies — to surveil the 1,900-mile-long border with Mexico. From a computer science perspective, such an undertaking is enormously complex: Working out when to send a person out on foot, a truck, or an unmanned aerial vehicle depends on factors ranging from weather and terrain to the likelihood that a target might be armed.

To build the system, the university received a three-year, $750,000 grant from the Air Force Office of Scientific Research. The project began in March and will run through 2020.

 

[ttwtt78640]

How about heavily penalizing businesses that employ illegal workers? Like, put them out of business completely. Wouldn't the prospect of not being able to support themselves when they get there deter a lot of them? Seems like it would be easier too - if you could go after one business or 200 Mexicans, wouldn't that be a more efficient use of time?

Fully admitting I don't have the level of understanding around this issue as you guys, it's just seemed like the easier solution, would love to hear your thoughts on it.

Also...per your other comment (didn't bother to quote, you know what you said...hehe), I'm not sure walls themselves have ever been called "immoral", that I've seen. Inefficient, ineffective, waste of money, sure...but the only time I saw "immoral" used was in response to problematic treatment of illegal immigrants, not so much the laws that exist around border control.

That (bolded above) only requires mandated eVerify for the tax deduction of any direct labor costs. The reason that we lack enactment/enforcement of such laws (against employing "undocumented" workers) is that too many want wages to remain low and favor the demographic changes that lightly controlled immigration encourages.

 

[americanwoman]

For anyone and all who want to participate in the poll ---- for those who want The Wall (Trump's wall) and those who think The Wall is wrong or immoral -- should all currently standing border walls be demolished? Why or why not?

No, we can keep the current walls up. Instead of using money and resources to build more walls, I'd much rather we try really cracking down on the laws here and come up with a humane logical solution to the illegal immigrants already here who are good citizens.

 

[ttwtt78640]

An example:

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/smart-border-control-project/

Ah yes, the future "better ways" are being thought about (and maybe even studied) so let's not bother to take any further action "just yet".

 

[azgreg]

Ah yes, the future "better ways" are being thought about (and maybe even studied) so let's not bother to take any further action "just yet".

The technology is available now for a lot less money than a wall will cost.

 

[ttwtt78640]

The technology is available now for a lot less money than a wall will cost.

OK, and it's not being used because...

 

[OlNate]

That (bolded above) only requires mandated eVerify for the tax deduction of any direct labor costs. The reason that we lack enactment/enforcement of such laws (against employing "undocumented" workers) is that too many want wages to remain low and favor the demographic changes that lightly controlled immigration encourages.

So, once again, this all has very little to do with the fighting or "average folks" on the left and the right, but rather your government's relationship with the corporate world.

I wonder what would ever happen if you guys stopped fighting amongst yourselves and actually attacked the root of your problems. I mean, it's great for defining bases, but I'm not sure it accomplishes much else.

 

[MrWonka]

How, exactly, is that (bolded above) possible since a far larger proportion of illegal immigrants lack an HS education or speak English?

Because there are a lot of very low paying jobs that really don't require either of those skills that nobody in this country really wants to do.

If we expect illegal immigrants to support themselves (and their dependents?) without public assistance then why not expect (demand?) the same of US citizens?

For a bunch of reasons...

First, because the immigrants who can't find work and can't survive here go home. We saw during the great recession that net migration actually went negative for a while. The lack of jobs sent millions of immigrants back home. When you're a native citizen however and you're struggling it's not so easy to just pack up and leave, not to mention the fact that you shouldn't feel like you have to.

Second, nobody is saying that every immigrant pays for themselves. Simply that the vast majority do, and their taxes cover whatever expenditures that remainder need. Just like with the native population about 95% of people looking for work can find it most of the time, but there will always be a percentage of people that are struggling to find work and in between jobs. Helping these people so they don't fall into complete destitution is a smart thing to do because it increases the odds that they'll be able to find work down the road.

Third, almost no immigrants coming to the country are handicapped, disabled or elderly. Contrary to popular belief among the right it isn't murders and rapists coming here. It's relatively young, healthy, hardworking and entrepreneurial people. They have to be in order to make the journey. They're going to have a much easier time finding work that can pay for themselves than many natives with health issues.

Lastly, you also don't have a lot of single mothers coming here by themselves. When women come with children it's almost exclusively with a husband and other family members as well. That makes it possible for them to work without needing things like daycare.

 

[ttwtt78640]

So, once again, this all has very little to do with the fighting or "average folks" on the left and the right, but rather your government's relationship with the corporate world.

I wonder what would ever happen if you guys stopped fighting amongst yourselves and actually attacked the root of your problems. I mean, it's great for defining bases, but I'm not sure it accomplishes much else.

The simple fact is that neither party's congress critters want to alter that which gets them re-elected at a rate of over 90%. Rest assured that if the major campaign cash donors actually wanted a different policy then it would have been enacted long ago. Keeping immigration as "an issue" is working just fine for congress critters as is continued federal deficit spending - let's pass another CR, take a long vacation and promise to deal with those pesky "issues" later.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Because there are a lot of very low paying jobs that really don't require either of those skills that nobody in this country really wants to do.



For a bunch of reasons...

First, because the immigrants who can't find work and can't survive here go home. We saw during the great recession that net migration actually went negative for a while. The lack of jobs sent millions of immigrants back home. When you're a native citizen however and you're struggling it's not so easy to just pack up and leave, not to mention the fact that you shouldn't feel like you have to.

Second, nobody is saying that every immigrant pays for themselves. Simply that the vast majority do, and their taxes cover whatever expenditures that remainder need. Just like with the native population about 95% of people looking for work can find it most of the time, but there will always be a percentage of people that are struggling to find work and in between jobs. Helping these people so they don't fall into complete destitution is a smart thing to do because it increases the odds that they'll be able to find work down the road.

Third, almost no immigrants coming to the country are handicapped, disabled or elderly. Contrary to popular belief among the right it isn't murders and rapists coming here. It's relatively young, healthy, hardworking and entrepreneurial people. They have to be in order to make the journey. They're going to have a much easier time finding work that can pay for themselves than many natives with health issues.

Lastly, you also don't have a lot of single mothers coming here by themselves. When women come with children it's almost exclusively with a husband and other family members as well. That makes it possible for them to work without needing things like daycare.

Nonsense, the reason that illegal immigrants can (and do) support themselves and their dependents working those "bad" jobs is simply that they are expected to. US citizens, on the other hand, are offered "safety net" alternatives so they simply elect not to do so. Part-time McJob + "safety net" > full-time "bad" job is the basic economic reality.

 

[MrWonka]

OK, and it's not being used because...

Because our borders are so massive that it will also be ineffective.

Furthermore, we don't actually need it. The vast majority of the people crossing the border are perfectly good people who benefit the country more than they are a detriment.

 

[OlNate]

The simple fact is that neither party's congress critters want to alter that which gets them re-elected at a rate of over 90%. Rest assured that if the major campaign cash donors actually wanted a different policy then it would have been enacted long ago. Keeping immigration as "an issue" is working just fine for congress critters as is continued federal deficit spending - let's pass another CR, take a long vacation and promise to deal with those pesky "issues" later.

Seems pretty hopeless. Well, if there's nothing you can do, you guys at least ought to stop brawling about it, and go for a cerveza. Seems like time better spent...hehe

 

[ttwtt78640]

Seems pretty hopeless. Well, if there's nothing you can do, you guys at least ought to stop brawling about it, and go for a cerveza. Seems like time better spent...hehe

I'll drink to that.

 

[Taylor]

For anyone and all who want to participate in the poll ---- for those who want The Wall (Trump's wall) and those who think The Wall is wrong or immoral -- should all currently standing border walls be demolished? Why or why not?

I think all walls, border or not, should be demolished. They don't work because, like, ladders and stuff.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I think all walls, border or not, should be demolished. They don't work because, like, ladders and stuff.

Yep, and you have removed all locks from your home because of pry bars, bolt cutters, saws and stuff.

 

[Taylor]

The notion of border security is a joke. America has thousands of miles of borders and coastline. The idea that we could ever come close to stopping people from entering the country illegally is delusional.

The notion of prosecuting people for murder is a joke. America has hundreds of millions of citizens. The idea that we could ever come close to stopping people from committing murder is delusional.

 

[Taylor]

Yep, and you have removed all locks from your home because of pry bars, bolt cutters, saws and stuff.

Yeah, anything that is not 1000% effective at totally fixing a problem is stupid.