Shoe thrower 'beaten in custody' .

bub · Dec 17, 2008

Zyphlin said:
Odd, Here it shows a study that 10% of the male population in Australian prisons suffer from rape, many on a daily basis.

wow

I guess that is quite an indication of the way "Democracy" and "human rights" factor into Australia.

Actually it doesn't, and neither does it here.

and no one has said that neither

Taking a single incident,

it's not a "common" prisonner, this guy is famous worldwide, every newspaper is talking about him. It's a very stupid idea to beat him

espicially one that while regrettable is hardly something unheard of in ANY civilized country in this world, and trying to make a claim with it is ignorant. Furthermore, doing it without proper historical scope is equally ignorant. IF this story is true, and so far there's no proof of it at all,

it's not as if it was a rumor from a conspiracy website, numerous newspapers talk about it
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Shoe thrower 'beaten in custody'
Iraqi shoe thrower 'beaten in custody' - Middle East, World - The Independent
Iraqi shoe thrower badly beaten in custody, claims brother | Media | guardian.co.uk

it is regrettable but is much better than the likely death sentence for him and his family under the previously regime. To me, the fact that didn't happen is signs of progress. If he was beaten, it is a sign that there's still progress that needs to be done (as there is everywhere, be it Iraq, the U.S., or Australia).

If I smash your face, you won't complain, because I could also have killed you???

However honestly the posts in this thread seems to be that people who always enjoy bashing America deciding to glom onto a story that has little to no credible evidence backing it just to get on the "America Sucks, the Iraq War is a failure!" bandwagon

I fail to see the "America Sucks, the Iraq War is a failure!" posts

Zyphlin · Dec 17, 2008

bub said:
and no one has said that neither

Ummm, Bub?

Wessexman said:
If the allegations are true it is distressing and is quite an indication of the way "democracy" and "human rights" have been brought to Iraq.

Yeah, someone did say that THIS single act would be QUITE an indication of the way democracy and human rights were brought to Iraq, and note the " " around the words implying them in name only.

it's not a "common" prisonner, this guy is famous worldwide, every newspaper is talking about him. It's a very stupid idea to beat him

Wait wait wait, so we're to hold him to a higher standing because he is a "famous" prisoner for doing an illegal act? So would you also agree his punishment should be to a higher standard because he attacked a "famous person" in his illegal act?

I didn't say it wasn't stupid to beat him. I said its not an inidcation that somehow democracy and human rights haven't really be brought to Iraq.

it's not as if it was a rumor from a conspiracy website, numerous newspapers talk about it
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Shoe thrower 'beaten in custody'
Iraqi shoe thrower 'beaten in custody' - Middle East, World - The Independent
Iraqi shoe thrower badly beaten in custody, claims brother | Media | guardian.co.uk

And yet, reported or not, its still a rumor. There's rumor Rhom Emmanual was involved in the Blago scandal, and its reported on by a number of papers...yet I said there too that it was foolish to really be commenting on it with any kind of definitive feel at this time. Rumor is rumor, rather its hugely reported rumor or not. Let us remember back to the huge amount of Rape and Murder going on in the Super Dome during Katrina.

If I smash your face, you won't complain, because I could also have killed you???

Bad example.

If you had excrutiatingly killed about 20 people before me, and then you just punched me in the face, I wouldn't assume that I had it just as bad as those other 20 people.

Under the previous regime this guy if he had done this to Saddam would've likely been killed and potentially his family as well if history of that regime tells us anything.

In this he was arrested, and supposedly beaten while in custody.

Is that a good thing? No, not at all.

Is it an indication that Iraq hasn't moved closer to "democracy" and "human rights" than it was under the Sadam regime? No, not at all.

But that was what the OP was implying.

bub · Dec 17, 2008

Zyphlin said:
Ummm, Bub?

Yeah, someone did say that THIS single act would be QUITE an indication of the way democracy and human rights were brought to Iraq, and note the " " around the words implying them in name only.

sorry, I had not seen that part

Wait wait wait, so we're to hold him to a higher standing because he is a "famous" prisoner for doing an illegal act? So would you also agree his punishment should be to a higher standard because he attacked a "famous person" in his illegal act?

I didn't say it wasn't stupid to beat him. I said its not an inidcation that somehow democracy and human rights haven't really be brought to Iraq.

I was just saying that it was particularly stupid, because everyone has been talking about him one or two days ago, and that if he was beaten it would be quite a bad advertisement for the situation in Iraq (even if, as you say, it is a single example and it is not representative)

(and not being beaten isn't a "higher standing", it's just the way it should always be)

And yet, reported or not, its still a rumor. There's rumor Rhom Emmanual was involved in the Blago scandal, and its reported on by a number of papers...yet I said there too that it was foolish to really be commenting on it with any kind of definitive feel at this time. Rumor is rumor, rather its hugely reported rumor or not. Let us remember back to the huge amount of Rape and Murder going on in the Super Dome during Katrina.

we'll see, but it's still from BBC news and not from "yankeegohome.iq" or "globaljihad.net"

Bad example.

If you had excrutiatingly killed about 20 people before me, and then you just punched me in the face, I wouldn't assume that I had it just as bad as those other 20 people.

Under the previous regime this guy if he had done this to Saddam would've likely been killed and potentially his family as well if history of that regime tells us anything.

In this he was arrested, and supposedly beaten while in custody.

Is that a good thing? No, not at all.

Is it an indication that Iraq hasn't moved closer to "democracy" and "human rights" than it was under the Sadam regime? No, not at all.

But that was what the OP was implying

yeah, probably

Zyphlin · Dec 17, 2008

No problem, I can understand your confusion if you didn't see the OP.

My issue isn't really with discussing this potential rumor. Its in the implication that somehow someone being beat in prison is a sign that the "democracy" and "human rights" brought to Iraq are apparently fraudulent, while ignoring the fact that:

1) such action is found in EVERY country, civilized or not.
2) he would've had much much worse happen to him most likely under the Saddam Regime.

TheNextEra · Dec 17, 2008

If he was indeed beaten while in custody that is just plain wrong and there is no excuse for it. However, it had to cross the mind of the journalist that if he did do something like this there would be a chance that he would be beaten.

I mean in prison, inmates are not supposed to get ass raped, but it happens.

There is no excuse for it, but then again there is no surprise either when it happens.

Bergslagstroll · Dec 17, 2008

Yes but democratic countries try to avoid it as much as possible. Also it could be really good to avoid it in high profile cases. Just think of the reaction of Marta Stewart had been beaten up in jail. This is a extremely high profile case. A lot of Iraqies dislike Bush and if the guy that throw the shoes is beaten up it will increase his popularity. Iraq also have to show that they have started respecting human rights in their prisons. A good start is keep the high profile cases from being beaten up.

A parallel is the Swedish king that got a cake in his face. According to some old forgoten Swedish law the cake thrower could get up to seven years in prison. But the king pushed for droped charges. Because it would have diminished his popularity and increase the sympathy for the cake thrower.

conquer · Dec 17, 2008

bub said:
So what? It's totally unacceptable that a prisoner gets beaten in custody, especially if he hasn't killed/raped anyone.

Furthermore, what he did was not a "real" attack, it was just symbolic, like Noel Godin who throws pie on famous people who deserve it

If you think this guy would get beaten in custody if he was in the USA, then you should not be very proud...

where?

What about if the shoe hits president Bush? Was that "symbolic" for you as well? Take notice of the spped of the shoe and what the shoe is made of. Those shoes can cause even bleeding hitting a face at such speed.

Even in US the simple fact that you "tried" to hurt someone is worthy of detention and even prosecution.

bub · Dec 17, 2008

conquer said:
What about if the shoe hits president Bush? Was that "symbolic" for you as well? Take notice of the spped of the shoe and what the shoe is made of. Those shoes can cause even bleeding hitting a face at such speed.

Even in US the simple fact that you "tried" to hurt someone is worthy of detention and even prosecution.

If he had wanted to hurt Bush he would have used a gun or a bomb

It was obviously symbolic, because hitting someone with a shoe is an insult in Iraq. It's as if he had throwed a pie, in less funny.

If you throw a shoe or any small object that can't really hurt (because it's not "hard" like a can or a bottle) on someone, I doubt you'd be prosecuted. The only difference is that the aim was Bush.

You may think that it's not OK to throw shoes on famous people because they are "high officials", I think the contrary. Bush fully deserves to get shoes, pies, eggs and tomatoes in his face every time he gets outside the white house, because he is responsible of many things that went wrong.

It's not just Bush, it's also the bankers who have caused the economic crisis, all the corrupt politicians...

DiAnna · Dec 17, 2008

So far this is just a he-said, they-said. The brother made the allegation, which as pointed out keeps changing. Iraqi security denies it. Personally, I don't know and until there's proof, or at least some tangible evidence, either way, speculation isn't particularly useful.

He's gotta know that doing something like attempting to assault the president of a country would irritate a few people.

Oh, and yes, I think he wanted to hurt Bush. If he could have gotten a gun or a bomb through the metal detectors and secret service security, I'm betting he would have.

1069 · Dec 17, 2008

conquer said:
What about if the shoe hits president Bush? Was that "symbolic" for you as well? Take notice of the spped of the shoe and what the shoe is made of. Those shoes can cause even bleeding hitting a face at such speed.

Even in US the simple fact that you "tried" to hurt someone is worthy of detention and even prosecution.

My main thought on this is, as I think another poster already mentioned, that this does not inspire much confidence in the presidential security team.
It concerns me especially because I fear our next president will be a particular target.
Shoe-throwers, I fear, will be the least of his problems.

Wessexman · Dec 18, 2008

Zyphlin said:
Odd, Here it shows a study that 10% of the male population in Australian prisons suffer from rape, many on a daily basis. I guess that is quite an indication of the way "Democracy" and "human rights" factor into Australia.

Indeed it would and I'm not Australian so your sort of missed in trying to attack my country.

Actually it doesn't, and neither does it here. Taking a single incident, espicially one that while regrettable is hardly something unheard of in ANY civilized country in this world, and trying to make a claim with it is ignorant. Furthermore, doing it without proper historical scope is equally ignorant. IF this story is true, and so far there's no proof of it at all, it is regrettable but is much better than the likely death sentence for him and his family under the previously regime. To me, the fact that didn't happen is signs of progress. If he was beaten, it is a sign that there's still progress that needs to be done (as there is everywhere, be it Iraq, the U.S., or Australia).

Yes because there are no similar human rights problems in Iraq of course, this is the only act of violence we ever hear coming out of that country.:roll:

I meant indicative as in symbolic of the other numerous abuses and violence that plague Iraq.

Wessexman · Dec 18, 2008

Korimyr the Rat said:
If this is true, I think it says far more about Australia than it would about President Bush, and I am afraid that what it says about Australia isn't particularly nice.

Or the world I could have chosen Britain or many other countries, this guy has become a hero in Iraq it seems. Bush is very unpopular even if I think he seems like an alright person.

Note Bush doesn't mean American despite the fact some here seem to conflate him that way, in the same way as Brown or Blair were never the same as England.

bub · Dec 18, 2008

DiAnna said:
Oh, and yes, I think he wanted to hurt Bush. If he could have gotten a gun or a bomb through the metal detectors and secret service security, I'm betting he would have.

Not really, he had been telling his colleagues for at least 7 months that he would throw his shoe, that's what he did

Khayembii Communique · Dec 18, 2008

It was obviously symbolic, because hitting someone with a shoe is an insult in Iraq. It's as if he had throwed a pie, in less funny.

Actually it is completely different than something like that. In Middle Eastern and I believe some East Asian cultures it is the ultimate insult to show someone the bottom of your shoe or to touch it to someone. It is equated to basically walking on that person.

As most of you know, it's not my nature to write a new post one day after I published a post because I don't want to ruin the older one unless something really big happens. Sacred shoe is not a myth or a fairy tale…the shoe I'm talking about is for Muntathar AlZaidi from AlBaghdadia channel; the brave journalist that I'm sure majority of you have heard of…but what you haven't heard is the reactions of the Iraqi street and what do people think of Muntathar and what happened.

As a start I must make it clear what does it mean to throw someone with a shoe in the Iraqi traditions or may I say Arabic traditions in general; it's the maximum insult a man can do…it's the maximum humiliation no word can accomplish…and it happened yesterday in front of the whole world to one of the greatest criminals in the modern history when the brave Muntathar AlZaidi threw his two shoes on Bush who was standing beside AlMaliki in a press conference in Baghdad (BTW, it was an insult to AlMaliki too since he was standing besides him and in his place which is considered another insult in the Arab traditions).

I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw it on TV…Bush is a great criminal who directly or indirectly killed and ruined the lives of thousands of people whether Iraqis or American and it was hurting me to see him walking out of the white house with a pride thinking and pretending that he have accomplished his missions, made the world a better place and spread democracy! And the shoe came right on his face to wake him up and give him the humiliation he deserves by the hands of a brave Iraqi with the brave Iraqi saying "here is the goodbye kiss"…how many Iraqi faces have been stepped on with shoes because of him, it's time for him to try his own poison…I jumped out of my chair with the widest smile ever but that smile disappeared when I saw the bastards kicking him and punching him, what really hurt me with all the Iraqis that the ones who were beating him are Iraqis screaming "Turn off the all the cameras" and the brave was screaming "you are Iraqis!!!", if they were Americans it would be OK because it's their president and it's their duty to protect him but not Iraqis…as the journalist of AlBabiliya channel said "it has been hours and we are still hearing him being beaten and screaming in the other room" is this the democracy and freedom to beat someone! I know it's not a democracy to hit a president with a shoe and he should face the law because law is tricky but does the law say he should be beaten? Didn't Bush say he rescued the Iraqis from the torture of Saddam? Didn't both of them (AlMaliki and Bush) said that Iraq is a country of law! Then does the law permit torturing and in front of them and the whole world? There is nothing easier than talking…in addition to that 4 of his colleagues from AlBaghdadia channel were arrested, beaten and undressed.

Source

Oh, and yes, I think he wanted to hurt Bush. If he could have gotten a gun or a bomb through the metal detectors and secret service security, I'm betting he would have.

It would have been pretty damned easy to get a bomb through a metal detector. The entire point was that he wasn't trying to severely hurt or kill him; it was entirely a symbolic act. The man is a journalist, not a terrorist.

What he did was incredibly admirable.

Shoe thrower 'beaten in custody' .

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