Shocking News! CBO Confirms That the AHCA Is Still a Garbage Dump of Bad Ideas

[ibelsd]

So you can't counter anything I wrote and thus resort to personal attacks.

As to your numbered accusations:
1) I never claimed that. The post was a an accurate representation of Republican policies.
2) Rand/Ryan? Here's the first link of many where you can learn something about her influence on him:
7 Ways Paul Ryan Revealed His Love for Ayn Rand
I read her stuff as a teenager. If you find her fictional world of makers/takers actually fits in a world of over 7 billion human beings, you must be under 17 years of age. Hell, if you actually read through Galt's 50+ page rant at the end of Atlas without your eyes glazing over, lol. Then there are the laughable 'love scenes'.
3) I don't, and never did. I never belonged to a political party. They all have their problems, even the small parties, and the dems and reps even have some of the same issues. Addiction to the donor class is one example.

Ok. So, you are upset by my personal attacks when your entire post was, essentially, a personal attack. You can claim the post is an accurate representation of whatever you believe, but it does not make it true.

I am not disputing that Ryan is influenced by Objectivism. I am pointing out that your understanding of Rand's philosophy/views is fairly shallow. This isn't to say I am claiming her philosophy to be sacrosanct or absolute. However, the fact that you believe that one cannot be compassionate AND have Objectivist views indicates some misunderstanding on your part. Since, this is the crux of your premise, that someone with Randian views is automatically disinterested in the well being of others, then your conclusion simply does not hold.

Now, here is where I'm going to call B.S. on your story just a little bit. You claim to be a disinterested/unbiased political observer. However, you clearly indicated that a lack of care for the well-being of others was a strictly Republican trait. And while you have protested my observation, that you cannot possibly know the motivations of all politicians, your entire argument relies on this very insight. Else, how could you, with any certainty proclaim what Republicans really care about? You say it is an accurate representation of Republican policies, but the entire premise rests on your opinion based on a single factoid (Ryan's affinity for Ayn Rand).

Now, I will concede that, in general, politicians are highly self-interested individuals. However, I don't think this differentiates by party. Had you simply said all politicians are whores and that any plan they propose which intends to dictate healthcare for 350 million people is probably evil and ill-conceived, then I'd probably be your biggest fan. However, you decided that such an evil is tied to a single party and that it revolves around a philosophy which you believe you fully understand from some reading you did as a teenager. Sorry if I'm not overly impressed.

 

[Vern]

So, let's be clear. YOU may have focused on a single statement made in a later post, but that is not how this began.

IB, you literally asked in your second sentence “do we want low priced health care or quality healthcare”. I characterized your post as a “both sides do it” because you tried to make it that both sides over promised. To create that narrative you had to post false conservative criticisms of Obamacare and (this is key) assume “trumpcare improves quality”. I literally said, lets ignore the false conservative narratives and lets focus on your quality claim. Explaining how it improved quality was literally the first thing I asked you. I’m going to assume this was just a simple oversight like my oversight. Now that “when I asked ” is out of the way, I’m still looking for you to explain how “trumpcare improves the quality of care”. Your previous attempts were to:

• Claim taking insurance away from sick people would improve the quality
• Post a non CBO blurb you claimed was from the CBO that said it would improve quality

I shredded your first attempt by pointing out that Obamacare gave 20 million people healthcare and improved the quality of care. I shredded your second attempt by pointing out your blurb was not from the CBO. That oversight is not really your fault because it was written to give you that impression. Do you acknowledge what you said was not from the CBO? If you don’t, please provide a link to the CBO stating it.

And on a related side note IB, you’re ignoring that the quality of care will decrease dramatically for the 23 million who lose insurance. You can believe “dems over promised” on Obamacare if you want but fewer people covered with higher premiums and higher deductibles is not an “overpromise” for Trumpcare. It’s a complete failure. I knew Trumpcare would be a failure, I just didn’t think it would be such a spectacular failure. And higher premiums, higher deductibles with 23 million fewer covered is a spectacular failure indeed.

 

[MTAtech]

The Silence of the Hacks

With the bill’s text still not released for public view, Vox asked GOP senators to explain their hopes for it. Who will benefit from the legislation? What problems is this bill trying to solve?

The answers, universally, were “Er. Ah. Um.”

 

[Vern]

And, of course, the GOP is overselling their own plan. Cheaper, better, etc. They are clearly trying to improve quality and efficiency, but they are lying if they claim they can do it without cutting quantity (i.e. number of people covered).

IB, come back. I want to discuss why you were so determined to believe something that had no basis in fact. And we can discuss the way the Forbes editorial lied about the Oregon study.

 

[Vern]

And, of course, the GOP is overselling their own plan. Cheaper, better, etc. .

And IB, if you come back we can discuss

The report says a 64-year-old earning $26,500 would have to pay $13,600 for a health plan under the AHCA, up from $1,700 under Obamacare."

We didn't really get to that point yet. Cheaper was another of your beliefs. And don't forget, there was a time when conservatives obediently whined about the costs people pay. older people above the subsidy cutoff in high cost states seemed to be a particular issue. Trumpcare will affect every older American who buys insurance not just the well off in high cost states. The example of the guy making 26k paying 13k just shows how cruel (or just amazingly stupid) Trumpcare is.

 

[katzgar]

there are 5 republicans opposed this morning so as of today it is DOA

 

[Fenton]

"The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office reported Wednesday that the Obamacare repeal bill, which Republican House leaders successfully rushed through a vote earlier this month after several major revisions before the CBO could score their impact, would leave 23 million additional Americans without health insurance by 2026. This is a slight improvement over the previous edition of the legislation, which would have left 24 million more individuals uncovered. The updated legislation would also cut $834 billion from Medicaid and hand out tax cuts worth $661 billion, largely to upper-income households and corporations. If made law, the bill would still be absolute hell for aging, lower-middle-class workers. The report says a 64-year-old earning $26,500 would have to pay $13,600 for a health plan under the AHCA, up from $1,700 under Obamacare."

The CBO says 23 million fewer Americans will have insurance under the AHCA

Once I recovered from the shock I realized that republicans are simply not going to admit they've been lying about Obamacare the last 7 years. I think conservatives need to start writing their reps and senators and tell them "I know you lied but its okay, I forgive you but please address healthcare as if you haven't lied the last 7 years." then maybe they would try to address health care in the country in an honest and realistic manner.

Lol, the CBO is hardly objective or dependable when it comes to scoring Healthcare legislation. CBO projected that 22 million people would be enrolled in the exchanges by 2016. Enrollment in 2016 averaged around 10 million.
The CBO claimed the risk corridors would net the Fed Govt 8 billion dollars over 3 years. Risk pools lost money, with a 2.5 billion dollar deficit in 2014 and a 5.8 billion dollar deficit in 2015
The CBO greatly underestimated the cost of the ACA's average annual GDP growth with a of projection of 3.2% from 2010 to 2016. Obama's average GDP was 1.48%

 

[Greenbeard]

there are 5 republicans opposed this morning so as of today it is DOA

The House bill was dead because "moderates" in the GOP wouldn't vote to strip pre-existing condition protections. Until they did.

The House bill was DOA in the Senate because the Senate was going to start from scratch. Until they repackaged the AHCA and released it on Thursday.

There are no moderates, there is no principled opposition to the damage and the suffering the GOP leadership is attempting to unleash with their awful legislation. This is all theater.

 

[ibelsd]

And IB, if you come back we can discuss

The report says a 64-year-old earning $26,500 would have to pay $13,600 for a health plan under the AHCA, up from $1,700 under Obamacare."

We didn't really get to that point yet. Cheaper was another of your beliefs. And don't forget, there was a time when conservatives obediently whined about the costs people pay. older people above the subsidy cutoff in high cost states seemed to be a particular issue. Trumpcare will affect every older American who buys insurance not just the well off in high cost states. The example of the guy making 26k paying 13k just shows how cruel (or just amazingly stupid) Trumpcare is.

Disucss? Your fantasy land????

Per Vern:
Obama didn't lie. The Democrats are honest. Republicans are evil. Any source which supports Vern's view is gospel. Any source which opposes Vern's view is lying. Seriously. Until you can demonstrate perspective and are willing to address my actual arguments rather than perpetually battle straw men, there is not much to discuss.

 

[Vern]

Disucss? Your fantasy land????

Per Vern:
Obama didn't lie. The Democrats are honest. Republicans are evil. Any source which supports Vern's view is gospel. Any source which opposes Vern's view is lying. Seriously. Until you can demonstrate perspective and are willing to address my actual arguments rather than perpetually battle straw men, there is not much to discuss.

IB, see how you're whining about me instead of addressing the points I brought up to rebut your points. and you're doing it dishonestly. I have addressed your "trumpcare improves quality" attempts. By flailing at me and about me, you conveniently avoid addressing the fact the first thing I asked you was to explain "how it improves quality". And it allows you to avoid that what you think you posted from the CBO was not from the CBO. here's an easy one for you. will the quality of care improve for the 23 million people who lose coverage? Flailing at me and about me doesn't answer the question.

 

[Vern]

Lol, the CBO is hardly objective or dependable when it comes to scoring Healthcare legislation. CBO projected that 22 million people would be enrolled in the exchanges by 2016. Enrollment in 2016 averaged around 10 million.
The CBO claimed the risk corridors would net the Fed Govt 8 billion dollars over 3 years. Risk pools lost money, with a 2.5 billion dollar deficit in 2014 and a 5.8 billion dollar deficit in 2015

Your conservative masters appreciate your obedience but whining about the CBO isn't disproving the numbers. And whining about their "objectivity" is just laughable. so until you find a group that is more reliable and objective than the CBO, those are the estimates.

The CBO greatly underestimated the cost of the ACA's average annual GDP growth with a of projection of 3.2% from 2010 to 2016. Obama's average GDP was 1.48%

You're going to have to explain what you're trying to say. don't panic and run away, I'm not asking you to back it up. Just explain it.

 

[Vern]

Fenton, I cant help but notice you panicked and ran away at the first sign of someone asking you a question. I asked you not to.

The CBO greatly underestimated the cost of the ACA's average annual GDP growth with a of projection of 3.2% from 2010 to 2016. Obama's average GDP was 1.48%

You're going to have to explain what you're trying to say. don't panic and run away, I'm not asking you to back it up. Just explain it.

 

[Vern]

Gee golly. It had been a couple weeks since this thread got started, so when you explained how this conversation started, I kind of scratched my head. I remember your reference, but couldn't place it at the starting line. .

so just to be clear, you really have no intention of ever explaining how "trumpcare" improves the quality of healthcare. if you ever want to explain why you believed in the first place, just ask.

 

[Fenton]

Fenton, I cant help but notice you panicked and ran away at the first sign of someone asking you a question. I asked you not to.

Im not a Democrat, so there's no need for me to panic.

You people have suffered staggering losses since 2010 and are 0 - 5 in special elections since Trumps inaugeration
I think we both know who' s panicking and its not me

 

[Gladiator]

What compromises are possible? Not al ideas in Obamacare are bad.

Age 26 coverage could be compromised down to 24, if a parent earned over $150,000.00.


Pre-existing conditions that are not life threatening could be excluded, if earnings exceed $175,000.00.

Semi-voluntary surgery, such as sex changes, could be excluded if earnings are over $200,000.00

Why is no one talking compromise specifics?




//

 

[Cigar]

If Obamacare is so bad why haves enrollments increased? :lamo


The Big Lie from the satanic lips of McConnell, Cruz etc is that Obamacare has greatly harmed millions, reducing the care they get while spiking their premiums and out of pocket costs. If that were true enrollments would decline each year. millions of healthy people would opt to pay the IRS penalty instead. The penalty might be about a hundred dollars per month for most single people. Maybe twice that for a family. Far far less expensive than the huge costs the Evil Ones claim.

But the facts disprove that. Enrollments keep going up. The popularity of Obamacare, were the practiced lies of the sophists true, would have declined every year. The facts scream out that the demagogues of the right are scamming their followers: the popularity of Obamacare has gone up, not down.

It is a FACT that enrollments are up, it is a FACT that the popularity of Obamacare is up, even in the face of a massive propaganda operation on Fox News, on right wing radio, on right wing web sites, nonstop, 24 hours a day of vile lies, yet the FACTS scream out proof that it's all vile satanic lies.

NEXT! :mrgreen:

 

[ludin]

If Obamacare is so bad why haves enrollments increased? :lamo


The Big Lie from the satanic lips of McConnell, Cruz etc is that Obamacare has greatly harmed millions, reducing the care they get while spiking their premiums and out of pocket costs. If that were true enrollments would decline each year. millions of healthy people would opt to pay the IRS penalty instead. The penalty might be about a hundred dollars per month for most single people. Maybe twice that for a family. Far far less expensive than the huge costs the Evil Ones claim.

But the facts disprove that. Enrollments keep going up. The popularity of Obamacare, were the practiced lies of the sophists true, would have declined every year. The facts scream out that the demagogues of the right are scamming their followers: the popularity of Obamacare has gone up, not down.

It is a FACT that enrollments are up, it is a FACT that the popularity of Obamacare is up, even in the face of a massive propaganda operation on Fox News, on right wing radio, on right wing web sites, nonstop, 24 hours a day of vile lies, yet the FACTS scream out proof that it's all vile satanic lies.

NEXT! :mrgreen:

Umm because it is manditory to get healthcare? that is just 1 reason. you should have thought that through a bit more.

 

[Cigar]

Umm because it is manditory to get healthcare? that is just 1 reason. you should have thought that through a bit more.

So pay the penalty ... that's far lees.

Reload, Retry, Refire.

 

[ludin]

So pay the penalty ... that's far lees.

Reload, Retry, Refire.

you made an assertion that isn't supported by anything.
more people are signing up because they have to. it is mandatory.

nothing you have said refutes this.

12.2 million people signed up for Obamacare for 2017 amid GOP repeal efforts - Mar. 15, 2017

interesting all the stuff that people said would happen happens.

less people enrolling, less people paying premiums. premiums spikes all over the place and they have been spiking since obamcare was put in place.
i thought it was supposed to reduce premiums not raise them?

actually i have good quality healthcare through my employer, however thanks to obamacare my costs have gone up not down.

 

[Cigar]

you made an assertion that isn't supported by anything.
more people are signing up because they have to. it is mandatory.

nothing you have said refutes this.

12.2 million people signed up for Obamacare for 2017 amid GOP repeal efforts - Mar. 15, 2017

interesting all the stuff that people said would happen happens.

less people enrolling, less people paying premiums. premiums spikes all over the place and they have been spiking since obamcare was put in place.
i thought it was supposed to reduce premiums not raise them?

actually i have good quality healthcare through my employer, however thanks to obamacare my costs have gone up not down.

FACT: Trumpcare has less that 20% Approval ... Period, End of Story.

Time to move on to improving Obamacare.

Next!