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Sheehan: Clinton killed more Iraqis than Bush

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Not in this country or on this forum, everyone's already got their minds made up and no matter the amount of evidence they won't be swayed, in their minds Bush is evil and anyone who doesn't like him is a saint even people like Chavez.

I don't know, I'm still an idealist at heart. I feel like people do end up leaving this forum better informed (in all political directions) than they were when they came here.
 
RightatNYU said:
That's my point. I guess my pipe dream of a wish was that people in the mainstream - liberal left who didnt know much about her and thought she was okay would see this and realize that she was crazy.

Silly me, hoping to impact someone.:doh



I would describe myself as part of that liberal left in that most of my politics lie generally left of center (my score on that political compass test places me right about on top of the spot that says Ghandi) and I happen to agree with you wholeheartedly. I don't know that there are too many people online who are open minded enough to be willing to listen, but I think the whole notion of liberality has been coopted by the radical left as characterized by Noam Chomsky, ANSWER, ISM and others whose views towards the world are inconsistant to the point of complete hypocricy and who act as such apologists for terrorism that they represent a fifth column.

I ain't one of them.

I'm not sure whether too many people would listen to you having that big elephant next to your name, and that's not because there is anything objectionable to what you are saying, but because of the label, itself. IMO Far too many people base their politics on labeling (and this works from both sides of the aisle) rather than values, as they tend to react against others rather than forming a consistant ideology of their own. It's a defense mechanism applied to a group identity as far as I'm concerned, in that people extend their own ego to cover the generalized group with whom they identify. This is where the apologia comes in, in that people feel it necessary to defend anything they feel attacks their group, and this despite the fact that what is being attacked really isn't really part of their group if people were to give the matter a little more thought. The end restult of such politics is that as rhetorec becomes more and more shrill, more polemic and more extreme, people gradually encompass that rhetorec and so it does become part of their group think.


As far as reactive politics, I think many people woke up on 9-11 shell shocked, and without having much in the way of political knowlege, looked to the internet to supply the background. Many of the more reactive leftists (of whom there are countless numbers) who unwittingly subscribe to the notion that an enemy of one's enemy is one's friend have driven themselves towards anything that stands against Bush. This has led to the preponderance of many of the antisemitic conspiracy theories people spout, as many of the sites people visit are not just against Bush, but subtly or not so subtly sympathetic towards Islamism and the actions commited by Islamists. They are picking up the attitudes along with the rhetorec, and the extreme left now hold hands with the extreme right.

You mentioned your pipe dream. Mine is that reasonable liberals will tell the lunatic fringe left to f.o., and reasonable conservatives will tell the lunatic fringe right to f.o., and both will find they have more in common with each other than with the fringes of either. A good place to start would be to put aside all this "you liberals" and "you conservatives" stuff that only acts to reinforce the differences that may be more minor than people think.
 
Synch said:
She is a reckless lunatic because of her brash and false statements. I would be pleasantly surprised if she backed up her inane statements. This recent one, although no greatly viewed by the general media, seems to be the most extreme one. Although I am a strong supporter of the Bill Of Rights and the Constitution of the United States, we should seriously consider censoring her, for the better of this world.

And that's exactly why those documents exist and what makes this country great. Censoring someone's 1st Amendments rights is not patriotic and I hope this is more in jest because such rationale sets a dangerous precedent.
 
RightatNYU said:
My point in bringing up this quote wasn't to say "LOOK CLINTON WAS WORSE THAN BUSH" but rather to say "Look, those of you on the left who idolized her blindly because she was attacking Bush, do you still think she's the greatest thing in the world, or do you now understand that she's just a publicity seeking opportunist?"

My statement was that I believe most people on this forum was supporting her RIGHT to say what she wants, not idolized her blindly because she was attacking Bush or think she's the greatest thing in the world

RightatNYU said:
And no, I think you're mischaracterizing the general attitude toward Cindy Sheehan. I can remember pretty much every single post on DU regarding her for months that was littered with "GO CINDY!" "STAND UP TO BULSHITLER" "IF ONLY WE HAD SENATORS LIKE HER" "CINDY FOR PRESIDENT" and the such. I, and every (semi-literate) conservative I know would agree that she has the right to say whatever she wants. I would have just expected that people on the left would have seen her for what she was eventually.

Since I don't visit DU, it would be extremely hard for me to 'remember pretty much every single post regarding her for months'. I was talking about people on this forum.

RightatNYU said:
It's like if you're a kid on the playground, watching a bully pick on another kid you don't like. You egg him on because hey, its not you getting picked on, no matter how wrong it is. That just makes it a bit more funny when the bully gets tired of the first kid and punches you in the face too.

This contradicts your first statement of why you brought this subject up.


My statement:

"It's funny that the cons condemned her every move, but will quote her when she says something that they think they can use to defame the other side."

was mainly in response to this child-like remark:
:roll:

KCConservative said:
Oh no, the new leader of the democratic party (Sheehan) has betrayed the party martyr (Clinton). That's gotta hurt.
 
BWG said:
My statement:

"It's funny that the cons condemned her every move, but will quote her when she says something that they think they can use to defame the other side."

was mainly in response to this child-like remark:Quote:
Originally Posted by KCConservative
Oh no, the new leader of the democratic party (Sheehan) has betrayed the party martyr (Clinton). That's gotta hurt.
:roll:

Hey, it's not my thread. I never quoted her.
 
Gardener said:
I would describe myself as part of that liberal left in that most of my politics lie generally left of center (my score on that political compass test places me right about on top of the spot that says Ghandi) and I happen to agree with you wholeheartedly. I don't know that there are too many people online who are open minded enough to be willing to listen, but I think the whole notion of liberality has been coopted by the radical left as characterized by Noam Chomsky, ANSWER, ISM and others whose views towards the world are inconsistant to the point of complete hypocricy and who act as such apologists for terrorism that they represent a fifth column.

I ain't one of them.

I'm not sure whether too many people would listen to you having that big elephant next to your name, and that's not because there is anything objectionable to what you are saying, but because of the label, itself. IMO Far too many people base their politics on labeling (and this works from both sides of the aisle) rather than values, as they tend to react against others rather than forming a consistant ideology of their own. It's a defense mechanism applied to a group identity as far as I'm concerned, in that people extend their own ego to cover the generalized group with whom they identify. This is where the apologia comes in, in that people feel it necessary to defend anything they feel attacks their group, and this despite the fact that what is being attacked really isn't really part of their group if people were to give the matter a little more thought. The end restult of such politics is that as rhetorec becomes more and more shrill, more polemic and more extreme, people gradually encompass that rhetorec and so it does become part of their group think.


As far as reactive politics, I think many people woke up on 9-11 shell shocked, and without having much in the way of political knowlege, looked to the internet to supply the background. Many of the more reactive leftists (of whom there are countless numbers) who unwittingly subscribe to the notion that an enemy of one's enemy is one's friend have driven themselves towards anything that stands against Bush. This has led to the preponderance of many of the antisemitic conspiracy theories people spout, as many of the sites people visit are not just against Bush, but subtly or not so subtly sympathetic towards Islamism and the actions commited by Islamists. They are picking up the attitudes along with the rhetorec, and the extreme left now hold hands with the extreme right.

You mentioned your pipe dream. Mine is that reasonable liberals will tell the lunatic fringe left to f.o., and reasonable conservatives will tell the lunatic fringe right to f.o., and both will find they have more in common with each other than with the fringes of either. A good place to start would be to put aside all this "you liberals" and "you conservatives" stuff that only acts to reinforce the differences that may be more minor than people think.


Very good post.:2wave:
 
BWG said:
My statement was that I believe most people on this forum was supporting her RIGHT to say what she wants, not idolized her blindly because she was attacking Bush or think she's the greatest thing in the world
Since I don't visit DU, it would be extremely hard for me to 'remember pretty much every single post regarding her for months'. I was talking about people on this forum.

I don't think ive ever had much of a conversation about cindy sheehan on this forum. That said, I can say with my own confidence that I know many many many on the left who did admire and praise Ms. Sheehan for doing what she did. Hell, look at the rallies, marches, etc. And I'd love to follow up with each and every one of those people and say "So what do you think now?"

This contradicts your first statement of why you brought this subject up.
My statement:

"It's funny that the cons condemned her every move, but will quote her when she says something that they think they can use to defame the other side."

was mainly in response to this child-like remark:
:roll:

No it doesnt. I'm confused as to what you're trying to say.
 
RightatNYU said:
In an interview with left-wing rag CounterPunch, Cindy Sheehan recently had this to say about #42:



Those of you in the Sheehan camp...any thoughts on this?

http://instapundit.com/archives/028211.php

(Of course, not being widely reported)

I heard on the news today that whacko Sheehan is going to run for the senate seat that Diane Feinstein holds..........I think that is great.....She is a great poster person for the democratic party.......:roll:
 
BWG said:
I think if you go back on the threads here about her, most people were defending her RIGHT to say what she said, not the CONTENT, but of course the cons will twist it like a pretzel.

It's funny that the cons condemned her every move, but will quote her when she says something that they think they can use to defame the other side.

It's kinda like on Monday, the cons will denounce The NY TImes as a liberal rag, piece of junk. Tuesday, there's a favorable article and it's quoted all over the place. Which is it? Liberal, conservative, moderate or none of the above?

I love the humor..LOL ;)

Well I am one of thoise cons and she was a whacko when she said it about Bush and she is a whacko when she said it about Clinton....Now is that enough consistency for you?:roll:
 
galenrox said:
Man, I am remaining consistant. I think it's ****ed up that she's been so targeted, and anyone on the left who does it now is just as guilty as anyone on the right.
Has she ever said anything bad about you? Has she done anything that has harmed you, or anyone at all? No, she hasn't, and yet so many people are content to sit around and call her names, and I think that is ****ed up.
I have never agreed with her politics. I don't like the talk of immidiate withdrawl from Iraq, I think it's a really bad idea, and I definately have no problem with globalization.
That being said, I think it's wrong to talk **** about her. It's a woman whose son died and this drove her to become politically active, that's it. She never hurt anyone (unless you consider the hit in Bush's poll numbers because of her), and the only one justified in actually insulting her would be members of the Bush administration. Other than that, I think this is bogus.

I think everyone both on the left and the right have said how sorry they are that she lost her son but it is long past that..........She has become the poster girl for the far left of the democratic, socialist, and communist party......She has not said anything that hurts me personally but by her stupid and outrageous statements she has hurt this country more then any other left winger............
 
Originally posted by RightatNYU:
Those of you in the Sheehan camp...any thoughts on this?

http://instapundit.com/archives/028211.php

(Of course, not being widely reported)
That was not an endorsement of Bush. I can only assume she was refering to Clinton's policies in regards to the UN sanctions on Iraq. As well as the attack on Bagdad.
 
galenrox said:
How so? Do you really find the American people so weak minded that they could honestly hurt by the words, and only words, of one woman who clearly doesn't know much about much?
Left wingers have hurt this nation in FAR worse ways than Sheehan could even dream of (if she was so inclined). FDR, for one. Johnson, another. The Vietnam War in the end was Johnson's fault, and just about all of our economic problems now stem from FDR's socialist policies.
What you said is quite simply proposterous. Very few people actually gave a crap about her son, but people posture because if someone says "I don't care about her son", everything s/he says afterwards would be ignored.
She hasn't hurt you, she hasn't hurt anyone, and she definately hasn't hurt America, America is far too strong to be hurt by her ideas for policy. You attack her personally because you adamately disagree with her politics, as do many people (I'm sure as will many on the left, those who don't mind coming across as hypocrites, that is), and I think that's ****ed up. Since when did expressing your opinion publicly merit being attacked and having all of your private life dragged up and discussed on every news channel or blog site?
If you don't like her politics, attack her damn politics, but it's ****ed up that you talk **** about her.

Your damn right, a lot of us are hurt by things that Sheehan, Murtha, Dean, Moore and Chamberlain say about this country.........
 
galenrox said:
How so? In what way is anyone hurt by these words?

Because I know guys that have died fighting for this country to give her a right to spew their outrageous hate speech and it hurts to hear people that have no clue put this country down.........
 
galenrox said:
Why? Why do you even take her seriously enough to let her words hurt? My overall impression of her was she was a California former hippie soccer mom, since when did we take the politics of California former hippie soccer moms seriously?
She's a person who expresses her opinion, and you don't like this opinion, and for some reason you equate this with not liking her.
I do appreciate where you're coming from, but dude, come on. Why would you take her that seriously?
Like I would be offended every time one of my girlfriend's professors says some bullcrap trying to prove that white men are the devil, except I don't take her teachers politics seriously.
Cindy Sheehan's politics don't hold water, they're over simplistic and they don't make sense. Why can't it just be left at that?

I take her serious just like I took people like Hitler seriously...........She has a zombie following and that is scary that anyone could be so stupid to believe anything she said......
 
galenrox said:
She does not have a zombie following at all, that's ridiculous. I think we can safely say that just about everyone who could be considered her "followers" held those same views before she came around.
And, just to point it out, if I had said what you just said, you would've been flipping out about me comparing someone to Hitler.

The only people that follow her are your far left dems like Jackson and Sharpton.....Main stream dems would not touch her with a 10 foot poll........

I truly believe she is a nutcase just like Hitler.........
 
Like I said earlier, I support wholeheartedly her right to say what she wants.

However, Freedom of speech always has a price. If you make outlandish and ignorant comments in the public arena ('George Bush doesn't care about black people' is a good example that would come to mind) then you had best be willing to to accept the **** storm that arises from your pretentious arrogance.

I especially like the newsest comment by racist Mayor Nagan who said something to the effect that he wants NO to be a chocolate city.'

These people are nuts, and we have every right to put them in their place when they think the world is their pedestal.
 
SixStringHero said:
Like I said earlier, I support wholeheartedly her right to say what she wants.

However, Freedom of speech always has a price. If you make outlandish and ignorant comments in the public arena ('George Bush doesn't care about black people' is a good example that would come to mind) then you had best be willing to to accept the **** storm that arises from your pretentious arrogance.

I especially like the newsest comment by racist Mayor Nagan who said something to the effect that he wants NO to be a chocolate city.'

These people are nuts, and we have every right to put them in their place when they think the world is their pedestal.

yep. crazy bastards.
 
galenrox said:
You attack her personally because you adamately disagree with her politics, as do many people (I'm sure as will many on the left, those who don't mind coming across as hypocrites, that is), and I think that's ****ed up.

Please explain why it is hypocritical for those on the left to adamantly disagree with her politics. Do you think politics acts like sports fandom where one chooses a team and is then faithful thereafter? Where is the hypocricy in basing one's politics on values and principles and calling somebody when their own stance flies in the face of those principles? Why should the fact that she lost her son provide teflon for all the other statements she makes that have nothing to do with that loss? The only hypocricy I see is in those who would view free speech as a one way street by trying to stifle the free speech of those who speak in response to Ms Sheehan while simultaneously championing her own.

As far as the harm she causes, the only people who are really harmed are the ones who are NOT speaking out, because if the antiwar movement wishes to succeed it needs to focus on the simpler stories such as the loss of her son and not all the dogmatic babble she spouts. That just turns people off rather than eliciting their support and the folks who should be speaking out are the ones who should be saying "she does not speak for me!". I have encountered a couple of her handlers online and they are very manipulitive people, so I am not entirely convinced that the words she spouts are original on her part. Her spiel is so consistant with a whole rhetorical program that she might as well be a wind up doll.

I'm a little older than most folks here, and while many people only refer to the VietNam War as history, I was right in the middle of the cultural changes it wrought. The antiwar movement then was quite different from the antiwar movement now. Sure, there were certain elements within the antiwar movement then whose politics were so extreme that they acted as a fifth column -- the communists and such -- but they were a small portion of the movement then. For the most part, it was made up of people who were tired of their brothers and sons and friends coming home in body bags and who demanded a clear exit strategy to our participation in a war that was costing so many lives and for such nebulous reasons. Today, however, the antiwar movement has been controlled from the beginning by those like A.N.S.W.E.R. whose shrill rhetorec is barely distinguishable from the Islamists own, and the loss of American life is only treated as political tool towards a greater agenda.
It is the fact that this agenda is not recognized by those who allow these people to speak for them that might be considered hurtful.

If a person is misrepresenting Christianity, I think it is far better for Christians to say "No, Fred Phelps does not speak for me". If somebody misinterprets Islam, Muslims should be clear in their denunciation. It is up to liberals to define liberality and conservatives to define conservatism and people within any group to provide their own rudder. Obviously, a person who labels the world as conservative (good), liberal (bad) will be quick to point out the Cindy Sheehans of the world. That is why it is up to those whose own views are being misrepresented to stand up and say "THAT is not liberality. She doesn't speak for me".

There is certainly no hypocricy in that. Quite the opposite in fact.
 
Because Sheehan's politics aren't stupid. . .she just says stupid things that make others look stupid.

And I know I'm fighting a losing battle trying to defend her but still people seem to forget that her son was killed in the war. Doesn't that say something to anyone? The fact that everyone now feels shes fair game to be attacked like she is some politician bugs me.
 
FinnMacCool said:
Because Sheehan's politics aren't stupid. . .she just says stupid things that make others look stupid.

And I know I'm fighting a losing battle trying to defend her but still people seem to forget that her son was killed in the war. Doesn't that say something to anyone? The fact that everyone now feels shes fair game to be attacked like she is some politician bugs me.


You miss the fact that she has made herself a politician by entering the political arena and voicing her political dogma.

I have not noticed people criticizing her for voicing her anguish the loss of her son. I may have missed something, however, since I don't always read all the posts, so if you could provide some reference to instances where people are attacking her for that, then I will agree with you as to lack of appropriateness.


As to whether her politics are "stupid" or not, you have admitted she says stupid things, so why would her stupid statements lead you to a conclusion that her politics are intelligent? Simplemindedness, hyperbole and dogmatism are not indicitive of an intelligent approach to politics to me, so I do not understand why you would consider these traits in her as indicative of such. Fundamentalism is fundamentalism whether the religious based fundamentalism of the right or the marxist based fundamentalism of the left.
 
Well I hope she does run for the Senate and beats Feinstein out of her seat.............She is just the kind of Senator the democratic party needs..........
 
galenrox said:
But why attack her personally? Why, instead of saying "I disagree with her politics" you say "She might as well be a windup doll".
It is only hypocritical of those on the left who beraded republicans for bashing her who'll now start bashing her.


Son --for somebody who just yesterday referred to Bush as a "retard", you certainly go to extrordinary lengths to find a personal attack in my posting here.

I don't know if you have allowed your status as moderator go to your head, but before calling somebody a hypocrite, perhaps you might want to make your own a bit less obvious.




Also, if you can find a single instance where I have berated republicans for bashing her, please deliver the evidence.

thankyou
 
galenrox said:
Well, no I didn't, it was pretty much the first thing I saw in your post.

It's a different situation because of several reasons. First of all, Bush is my president, he represents me, and he's supposed to work for me, so thus rage directed towards him is quite a bit more justifiable. The biggest difference is that words don't exist to explain how bad of a person I think George W. Bush is.
Bashing a politician is a lot different than bashing just a normal citizen. If she does run for senate, be my guest to bash her all you please, because in that particular setting her character and personality traits are relevent, while bashing her as a citizen just for expressing her opinions is just an act of political intimidation (You wanna speak up, alright, but we'll dig up every little embarassing thing in your life, publicize it, and then we'll bash you personally in the media.)


Feel free to avail yourself of a dictionary if you need to look up the meaning of the word "sophistry".
 
galenrox said:
Well, no I didn't, it was pretty much the first thing I saw in your post.

It's a different situation because of several reasons. First of all, Bush is my president, he represents me, and he's supposed to work for me, so thus rage directed towards him is quite a bit more justifiable. The biggest difference is that words don't exist to explain how bad of a person I think George W. Bush is.
Bashing a politician is a lot different than bashing just a normal citizen. If she does run for senate, be my guest to bash her all you please, because in that particular setting her character and personality traits are relevent, while bashing her as a citizen just for expressing her opinions is just an act of political intimidation (You wanna speak up, alright, but we'll dig up every little embarassing thing in your life, publicize it, and then we'll bash you personally in the media.)

What you fail to realize is Sheehan has made herself a public figure by her outlandish ravings..........She is a partisan who expressed the views of a lot of the left..........Thay make her fair game for criticism........Her latest ranting and raving is about Judge Alito........What does that have to do with her sons death?

This woman is not playing with a full deck and next to Hillary is the best thing to happen to the Republican party in a long time............
 
FinnMacCool said:
Because Sheehan's politics aren't stupid. . .she just says stupid things that make others look stupid.

And I know I'm fighting a losing battle trying to defend her but still people seem to forget that her son was killed in the war. Doesn't that say something to anyone? The fact that everyone now feels shes fair game to be attacked like she is some politician bugs me.

If a member of the nation of Islam gets killed in the war and his mother decides to launch a campaign to get the Jews and the whites out of office because the filthy corrupt jew devils and oppressing white man are ruining the country, do you think shes fair game to be attacked for being ridiculous? Or does the fact that her son was killed make her immune.
 
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