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She Had an Abortion With Herschel Walker. She Also Had a Child With Him.

Callen said:
Preforming an abortion outside of a medical facility may be a criminal act but it would be the same fir any medical procedure conducted outside a medical facility. Losing your licence to practice is not a legal consequence. However, you make my point for me. Their are medical restrictions in p!ace that ensure no unnecessary terminations of viable fetuses. You dont need legislation .
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Who creates the "medical restrictions" in Canada?
 
Callen said:
Saying you don't favour legislation is not saying you don't favour restrictions. For example, we have no laws regulating abortions but in Ontario there is a medical restriction after 20 weeks after which there must be serious extenuating circumstances and it must be approved by a medical board. Laws limiting medical procedures is a slippery slope.
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As a person with no power to make those decisions (the general public), you would be correct.

However as a lawmaker, if you plan to "not make a decision", what does that result in?
Isn't that the same, in practice, as saying we will allow no restriction unless called for by the mother or the doctor?
 
SuperDS77 said:
Who creates the "medical restrictions" in Canada?
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Several organizations set standards the Medical Council of Canada, the Canadian Medical Association as well as Provincial Medical Associations, and hospitals set standards too. For example Catholic hospitals preform no abortions at all. The point is there is no legislation, no criminal laws.....polititians are not involved.
 
Cope said:
As a person with no power to make those decisions (the general public), you would be correct.

However as a lawmaker, if you plan to "not make a decision", what does that result in?
Isn't that the same, in practice, as saying we will allow no restriction unless called for by the mother or the doctor?
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Not in my view. Saying you don't approve of legislation is not the same as saying you don't approve of restrictions. It's a matter of who you th8nk should establish those restrictions.
 
Callen said:
Their are medical restrictions in p!ace that ensure no unnecessary terminations of viable fetuses.
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BTW thank you for a civil discussion.

Why would any "termination" ever be considered "unnecessary"? Is it not up to the woman?
 
SuperDS77 said:
BTW thank you for a civil discussion.

Why would any "termination" ever be considered "unnecessary"? Is it not up to the woman?
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Your welcome, it takes two!

In Ontario the limit for on demand abortions is 20 weeks. Beyond that there must be a reason for the abortion beyond the mother's desire to have one. A health risk to the mother, a serious abnormality with the fetus.....that sort of thing. After 20 weeks it is not up to the woman alone.
 
Callen said:
Not in my view. Saying you don't approve of legislation is not the same as saying you don't approve of restrictions. It's a matter of who you th8nk should establish those restrictions.
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Who established the 20 week restriction?
 
Cope said:
Who established the 20 week restriction?
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I believe it was the Province of Ontario Ministry of Health in conjunction with the Ontario Medical Association but will have to check further. Health Canada sets guidelines but the Provinces set the parameters as part of their responsibility to administer universal healthcare. Want to stress that while Health Canada is a federal agency they have no authority to establish laws nor does the Ontario Ministry of Health. They establish standards, parameters and restrictions on all medical procedures. In Canada, abortion is considered a medical procedure....period.
 
Callen said:
I believe it was the Province of Ontario Ministry of Health in conjunction with the Ontario Medical Association but will have to check further. Health Canada sets guidelines but the Provinces set the parameters as part of their responsibility to administer universal healthcare. Want to stress that while Health Canada is a federal agency they have no authority to establish laws nor does the Ontario Ministry of Health. They establish standards, parameters and restrictions on all medical procedures. In Canada, abortion is considered a medical procedure....period.
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Abortion IS a medical procedure here as well.

One in which it has to, at some point, take into account 2 lives instead of one.

The sticky point was always that line that delineated the two.
 
I agree.....but I don't see governments roll in legislating that. It is impossible for them to get it right. If all life is sacred what makes 6 weeks, or 12 weeks or 15 weeks OK? Why does rape or incest matter? Who the hell are legislators to be the arbitrators?
 
Callen said:
I agree.....but I don't see governments roll in legislating that. It is impossible for them to get it right. If all life is sacred what makes 6 weeks, or 12 weeks or 15 weeks OK? Why does rape or incest matter? Who the hell are legislators to be the arbitrators?
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The latest ruling removed the need for legislators approval (by SCOTUS), the States can now do as they wish.

And I do wish they would look at the science, find the line and set it there. If/When that line changes, then move the line.

I also find myself agreeing with the men's rights folks in that, if a woman wants to have a baby after being told that the father is not interested, she can do so without his support. Both get to choose at that point.
 
Callen said:
I agree.....but I don't see governments roll in legislating that. It is impossible for them to get it right. If all life is sacred what makes 6 weeks, or 12 weeks or 15 weeks OK? Why does rape or incest matter? Who the hell are legislators to be the arbitrators?
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Fair enough, but SOMEONE has to make these determinations.

The human bureaucrats at the Province of Ontario Ministry of Health in conjunction with the Ontario Medical Association or Health Canada or any other administrative organization have no more/less bias than elected politicians.

The main distinction being that one is elected and could be held accountable for whatever decision made.
 
Cope said:
I also find myself agreeing with the men's rights folks in that, if a woman wants to have a baby after being told that the father is not interested, she can do so without his support. Both get to choose at that point.
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Interesting. Another corollary might be if the father wants his child and the mother does not.
 
Cope said:
The latest ruling removed the need for legislators approval (by SCOTUS), the States can now do as they wish.

And I do wish they would look at the science, find the line and set it there. If/When that line changes, then move the line.
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Trouble is that is not ever going to happen. The laws will be drawn for political advantage......the absolutely last thing such an important deci8n should be based on
Cope said:
I also find myself agreeing with the men's rights folks in that, if a woman wants to have a baby after being told that the father is not interested, she can do so without his support. Both get to choose at that point.
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I don't totally disagree with you on that but only if access to abortion is accessible and not restricted....and Daddy help foots the bill for the abortion, transportation, loss of salary etc.
 
Callen said:
Trouble is that is not ever going to happen. The laws will be drawn for political advantage......the absolutely last thing such an important deci8n should be based on
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But almost all such decisions are ultimately controlled by our governments, at some point. We talk about freedom as if we have autonomy, it isn't even close. Not that I disagree with you.
Callen said:
I don't totally disagree with you on that but only if access to abortion is accessible and not restricted....and Daddy help foots the bill for the abortion, transportation, loss of salary etc.
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I don't see any problem in agreeing to all with those stipulations.
 
SuperDS77 said:
Interesting. Another corollary might be if the father wants his child and the mother does not.
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While I can certainly understand (by being a father of 5), I certainly couldn't get behind forcing the mother to have a baby so that I could take custody of it.


The corollary that absolutely needs to be the case in all courts across America though is this: In custody battles, the standard possession order should be a 50-50 arrangement with offset child support (or none exchanged).
 
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