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Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

sharia=killers

End of story..

No if ands or buts

Okay.

It's quite obvious you're almost proud of the fact that you don't know what you're talking about, and it ain't my job to learn ya, so have a nice day.
 
I'd suggest that you're half-way to a revelation.

Like pretty much all religions, there isn't a singular agreed definition of what Islam actually is and you can't simply take your interpretation of the Koran and declare that is Islam. Even actual Muslims don't get to do that. Just as it's flawed to criticize all Muslims, it's flawed to criticize all Islam. We can criticize individual beliefs, opinions, words and actions but only in the context of people who actually express or support them.

1400 years ago there was a "singular agreed definition of what Islam actually is". Mohamed made it abundantly clear, and that's the Islam ISIS is trying to recreate. That's why we need to know the Qur'an and hadiths.
 
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That's why we need to know the Qur'an and hadiths.

Apostasy
Quran

Quran (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."
Quran (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."

Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith that establish the death sentence for apostates are Quran verses 2:217, 9:73-74, 88:21, 5:54, 9:66.


Hadith and Sira

The most reliable Hadith collection contain numerous accounts of Muhammad and his companions putting people to death for leaving Islam. According to verse 4:80 of the Quran: "Those who obey the Messenger obey Allah."

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Bukhari (84:57) - [In the words of] "Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"

Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"

Bukhari (11:626) - "The Prophet said, 'No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to crawl.' The Prophet added, 'Certainly I decided to order the Mu'adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses'."

Abu Dawud (4346) - "Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him?" Muhammad is chastising his companions for allowing an apostate to "repent" under duress. (The person in question was Muhammad's former scribe, who left him after doubting the authenticity of divine "revelations" - upon finding out that grammatical changes could be made. He was brought back to Muhammad after having been captured in Medina).

al-Muwatta of Imam Malik (36.18.15) - "The Messenger of Allah said, "If someone changes his religion - then strike off his head."

Reliance of the Traveller (Islamic Law) o8.1 - "When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed." (o8.4 affirms that there is no penalty for killing an apostate).
 
That's why we need to know the Qur'an and hadiths.

Homosexuality

Quran

Quran (7:80-84) - "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)" - An account that is borrowed from the Biblical story of Sodom. Muslim scholars through the centuries have interpreted the "rain of stones" on the town as meaning that homosexuals should be stoned, since no other reason is given for the people's destruction. (The story is also repeated in suras 27 and29).
Quran (7:81) - "Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?" This verse is part of the previous text and it establishes that homosexuality as different from (and much worse than) adultery or other sexual sin. According to the Arabic grammar, homosexuality is called the worst sin, while references elsewhere describe other forms of non-marital sex as being "among great sins."

Quran (26:165-166) - "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing"

Quran (4:16) - "If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone" This is the Yusuf Ali translation. The original Arabic does not use the word "men" and simply says "two from among you." Yusuf Ali may have added the word "men" because the verse seems to refer to a different set than referred to in the prior verse (explicitly denoted as "your women"). In other words, since 4:15 refers to "your women", 4:16 is presumably written to and refers to men.

Interestingly, the same rules don't seem to apply in paradise, where martyrs for the cause of Allah enjoy an orgy of virgins and "perpetual youth" Quran (56:17) (otherwise known as "boys" Quran (52:24)). Quran (76:19) bluntly states, "And immortal boys will circulate among them, when you see them you will count them as scattered pearls." Technically, the mere presence of boys doesn't necessarily mean sex, however it is strongly implied from the particular emphasis on the effeminacy, handsomeness and "freshness" of the boys. The female virgins of paradise are also compared to pearls (56:23).

[Editor's note: We are not implying a link between homosexuality and pedophilia here anymore than we are implying one between heterosexuality and pedophilia when recounting that Muhammad's preferred wife was a 9-year-old girl.]
Hadith and Sira

There are several lesser hadith stating, "if a man comes upon a man, then they are both adulterers," "If a woman comes upon a woman, they are both Adulteresses," "When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes," and "Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to."

Abu Dawud (4462) - The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.".

Abu Dawud (4448) - "If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death." (Note the implicit approval of sodomizing one's wife).

Bukhari (72:774) - "The Prophet cursed effeminate men (those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, 'Turn them out of your houses .' The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman."

al-Tirmidhi, Sunan 1:152 - [Muhammad said] "Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver."

Reliance of the Traveller, p17.2 - "May Allah curse him who does what Lot's people did." This is also repeated in three other places.
 
Obviously, even the most cursory examination of Islam and the Middle East reveals that there are varying interpretations... this is where we get Sunni and Shiite and why they kill each other when they're not busy killing us.


And yes, there are "liberal" Muslims who view Jihad as a spiritual struggle rather than literal violence... but the Quran says what it says. The later Meccan Suras supercede the earlier Medina Suras, and taken in any slightly literalist fashion do support violent Jihad.... thus the ease with which some seemingly Westernized Muslims become radicalized, as in the recent hubby-wife terror tag team.

Every individual has their own beliefs, and what Islam means is different from person to person depending on their personal interpretation.
 
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Could you possibly be missing the point harder? If Leviticus suddenly Doesn't Count Because Jesus, why do so many Christians cite it when voicing their opposition to homosexuality, for example?

My main point is that, despite the violent, kill-the-infidel **** in the Koran, a billion-plus Muslims have no problem going through life without becoming head-lopping monsters, so trying to use "BUT THE KORAN IS VIOLENT" as some sort of argument is all sorts of useless.

Two things:

1. Please don't just count those actually doing the head-lopping as extremists. Many polls have shown that a disturbingly large minority of the world's Muslims agree to varying degrees with much of the activity we call "extremist" (jihad, honor killings, death for apostasy, etc).

2. The Qur'an exists for the sole purpose of defining Islam, so of course it has to be understood.
 
Two things:

1. Please don't just count those actually doing the head-lopping as extremists. Many polls have shown that a disturbingly large minority of the world's Muslims agree to varying degrees with much of the activity we call "extremist" (jihad, honor killings, death for apostasy, etc).

2. The Qur'an exists for the sole purpose of defining Islam, so of course it has to be understood.

Nobody's claiming it doesn't have to be "understood." However, simply saying "the Koran is violent, ergo Muslim extremists," while convenient, doesn't even scratch the surface when talking about actual sources of the problem.
 
Nobody's claiming it doesn't have to be "understood." However, simply saying "the Koran is violent, ergo Muslim extremists," while convenient, doesn't even scratch the surface when talking about actual sources of the problem.

The quran is THE source of all muslim/islam everything, and it is chocked full of kill kill kill kill kill kill kill kill kill kill kill kill kill kill
 
Every individual has their own beliefs, and what Islam means is different from person to person depending on their personal interpretation.



To a degree, yes. However, individual conscience is not typically given the same weight in Islam that it is given in the West; the rules are the rules and if you fail to abide in them you are not Muslim ("obedient").

And the percentage which support Shariah law is disturbing, as it is the very thing that advocates such violence.
 
The quran is THE source of all muslim/islam everything, and it is chocked full of kill kill kill kill kill kill kill kill kill kill kill kill kill kill

Actually, it's not, or things like the Hadiths wouldn't exist.

We've already established your ignorance. Please leave the discussion to those who are interested in actually having one.
 
Actually, it's not, or things like the Hadiths wouldn't exist.

We've already established your ignorance. Please leave the discussion to those who are interested in actually having one.

Not my ignorance... Your denial..

You are just a moronic PC shill and that is that..
 
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To a degree, yes. However, individual conscience is not typically given the same weight in Islam that it is given in the West; the rules are the rules and if you fail to abide in them you are not Muslim ("obedient").

And the percentage which support Shariah law is disturbing, as it is the very thing that advocates such violence.

Shariah law is observed in Malaysia and Indonesia, and neither of those countries are going around chopping off people's heads. From what I understand, shariah law in those countries exists alongside the judicial law practiced in those countries. The shariah courts only have jurisdiction on matters relating to Islamic law, everything else is handled by the traditional judicial system.
 
Actually, it's not, or things like the Hadiths wouldn't exist.

We've already established your ignorance. Please leave the discussion to those who are interested in actually having one.



He's not far wrong.

I have read the Quran*. I was curious and wanted to know what does it REALLY say?


I found that it is indeed heavily loaded with killing and subjugating the infidel, most especially the Jew, to a sufficient degree that it became very repetitive and redundant on the matter. That's not ALL that's in there, obviously... but there's most assuredly a-plenty of it!





* In the interest of truth, I'll admit this: I started off intending to read the Quran cover to cover. I ended up doing a lot of skimming, since a lot of it is so repetitious... in particular I was heard to mutter "Yes yes I get it, kill the Jews and subjugate the Christians, how many times and ways are you going to say it??"
 
The root cause of Islamic extremism is the Koran? Then explain the billion plus Muslims who've managed to not kill anyone.

Would you agree that the best indicator of the direction a new religion is expected to take is to examine the actions of it's innovator and first adherents? Makes a lot of sense to me. I'm sure you know that the first Muslims left Arabia and tried to conquer the known world despite never having been attacked themselves. This occurred at the only time in history that Muslims were 100% united, lived in the same area, spoke the same language, lived in an era in which such massive campaigns of conquest were possible, and, most importantly, lived with the man who created Islam, led by example, and was available to clarify its message.

The root causes of radicalization and extremism run way, way deeper than objectionable passages in a 1,500-year-old book. It's your brand of intellectually shallow thinking that has prevented us from making any real progress stemming the tide of extremism.

The age of the Qur'an is irrelevant. Just ask ISIS. It was intended to clarify God's wishes until al yom al akhar (The Last Day), and that's exactly how the people we call extremist approach it.
 
Shariah law is observed in Malaysia and Indonesia, and neither of those countries are going around chopping off people's heads. From what I understand, shariah law in those countries exists alongside the judicial law practiced in those countries. The shariah courts only have jurisdiction on matters relating to Islamic law, everything else is handled by the traditional judicial system.



....which is not the same thing as Shariah law being law of the land, as the Quran intends it to be: the supreme law, superceeding all others.
 
He's not far wrong.

I have read the Quran*. I was curious and wanted to know what does it REALLY say?


I found that it is indeed heavily loaded with killing and subjugating the infidel, most especially the Jew, to a sufficient degree that it became very repetitive and redundant on the matter. That's not ALL that's in there, obviously... but there's most assuredly a-plenty of it!





* In the interest of truth, I'll admit this: I started off intending to read the Quran cover to cover. I ended up doing a lot of skimming, since a lot of it is so repetitious... in particular I was heard to mutter "Yes yes I get it, kill the Jews and subjugate the Christians, how many times and ways are you going to say it??"

Yeah, we know, it's a violent book. That's really not the subject of the debate.
 
Is the Koran a book with only one interpretation? Or can different men have their own interpretations of what the Koran says and what Islam means to them?

Let me give you just one example. Verse 2:98 says, "Allah Ado al kafareen (God is the enemy of infidels)". I defy anyone to dredge up a different meaning, or mitigating context.
 
....which is not the same thing as Shariah law being law of the land, as the Quran intends it to be: the supreme law, superceeding all others.

Are you saying that Muslims living in Indonesia and Malaysia are not following "true" Islam?

Who is the final arbiter of deciding what is the true meaning of Islam? It certainly is not Daesh.
 
Yeah, we know, it's a violent book. That's really not the subject of the debate.

It's not just a violent book... Like Clancy novels are violent books..

The quran ADVOCATES violence.. It is specific as to what violence it advocates also.. Encourages violence..

AND!! It claims that GOD SAYS SO!!

If ya didn't know..
 
Let me give you just one example. Verse 2:98 says, "Allah Ado al kafareen (God is the enemy of infidels)". I defy anyone to dredge up a different meaning, or mitigating context.

You can cite all the examples you want, it does not explain why the majority of Muslims around the world do not follow those sayings.
 
You can cite all the examples you want, it does not explain why the majority of Muslims around the world do not follow those sayings.

The majority of Muslims around the world DO follow those sayings...
 
You can cite all the examples you want, it does not explain why the majority of Muslims around the world do not follow those sayings.

No it doesn't, but I fail to see what your point is. It's those who DO follow those commands who are trying to ruin the world.
 
Are you saying that Muslims living in Indonesia and Malaysia are not following "true" Islam?

Who is the final arbiter of deciding what is the true meaning of Islam? It certainly is not Daesh.



I'm saying Daesh/ISIS is practicing the Quran in a more literal fashion, which is obviously a problem.
 
Are you saying that Muslims living in Indonesia and Malaysia are not following "true" Islam?

Who is the final arbiter of deciding what is the true meaning of Islam? It certainly is not Daesh.

"It certainly is not Daesh". Based on specific knowledge, can you tell us what they're getting wrong?
 
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