Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

[stevecanuck]

When I comment about what's in the Qur'an, I frequently get this response, "OOOOOOOH, so AAAALLLLLLLLL Muslims are ..........." (Bill Maher got exactly that response from Islamic scholar Ben Affleck).

No. What Islam teaches and what individual Muslims do are two completely different topics. I recently proved that Islam allows for the rape of captives and slaves. It's in the Qur'an. It's in the hadiths. Mohamed encouraged it. The first Muslims did it. It just doesn't get any more Islamic than that.

BUT, it obviously doesn't mean that hundreds of millions of Muslim men are running around grabbing women in the name of jihad and raping them. What it does mean is that when ISIS, Boko Haram, and Al Shabab claim to have divine authority to do so, they're telling the truth, and it's one of the many truths we need to recognize in order to have a meaningful discussion about Islam.

It's more than possible to defend Muslims as individuals while at the same time directing well earned criticism at their religion.

 

[coldjoint]

When I comment about what's in the Qur'an, I frequently get this response, "OOOOOOOH, so AAAALLLLLLLLL Muslims are ..........." (Bill Maher got exactly that response from Islamic scholar Ben Affleck).

No. What Islam teaches and what individual Muslims do are two completely different topics. I recently proved that Islam allows for the rape of captives and slaves. It's in the Qur'an. It's in the hadiths. Mohamed encouraged it. The first Muslims did it. It just doesn't get any more Islamic than that.

BUT, it obviously doesn't mean that hundreds of millions of Muslim men are running around grabbing women in the name of jihad and raping them. What it does mean is that when ISIS, Boko Haram, and Al Shabab claim to have divine authority to do so, they're telling the truth, and it's one of the many truths we need to recognize in order to have a meaningful discussion about Islam.

It's more than possible to defend Muslims as individuals while at the same time directing well earned criticism at their religion.

I agree. But it should remain clear that all of Islam is taught from the same book.

 

[Kobie]

When I comment about what's in the Qur'an, I frequently get this response, "OOOOOOOH, so AAAALLLLLLLLL Muslims are ..........." (Bill Maher got exactly that response from Islamic scholar Ben Affleck).

No. What Islam teaches and what individual Muslims do are two completely different topics. I recently proved that Islam allows for the rape of captives and slaves. It's in the Qur'an. It's in the hadiths. Mohamed encouraged it. The first Muslims did it. It just doesn't get any more Islamic than that.

BUT, it obviously doesn't mean that hundreds of millions of Muslim men are running around grabbing women in the name of jihad and raping them. What it does mean is that when ISIS, Boko Haram, and Al Shabab claim to have divine authority to do so, they're telling the truth, and it's one of the many truths we need to recognize in order to have a meaningful discussion about Islam.

It's more than possible to defend Muslims as individuals while at the same time directing well earned criticism at their religion.

I agree. But it should remain clear that all of Islam is taught from the same book.

All of Christianity is taught from the same (violent) book.

I'm not drawing parallels with modern day behavior. The Muslim world is in serious need of an enlightenment. Of course ISIS, Boko Haram and Al Shabab are claiming "divine authority." That's what religious extremists do, of all stripes. It just so happens that the strain of religious extremism -- a devastating, often genocidal influence wherever and whenever it occurs -- is of the Muslim variety.

Outside of killing dead the bastards that do awful things in the name of their sky deity, the best way to combat such extremism is to isolate it. Which means not giving it the credence of calling it Muslim (I know many conservatives get all butthurt when Obama won't call ISIS "Muslim terrorists" but there's a reason for it, that dates back to the Bush administration); it means not marginalizing an entire religion based on the actions of its (at this point, discomfortably numerous) extremists; it means not screaming "BUT LOOK AT THE KORAN" as if that's a solution to anything, as if horribly violent passages don't exist in every Bronze Age Book of Superstitions known to man.

The two nations on earth with the most Muslims are Indonesia and India, neither of which have a real Muslim terrorist problem. India had the 2008 Mumbai attack (carried out by 90% foreign fighters), but has, for the most part, kept it under control. Indonesia hasn't had anything of note since Bali in '05. The problem is the governments in the ME that will fund and train terrorists to fight outside their borders in order to make Islamic terrorism someone else's problem.

But those governments were lucky enough to have a bunch of dinosaurs die underneath their sand a few million years ago, so nothing meaningful will be done about their complicity.

 

[Crovax]

All of Christianity is taught from the same (violent) book.

Yes turn the other cheek has been used as an excuse to commit so much violence

I'm not drawing parallels with modern day behavior. The Muslim world is in serious need of an enlightenment. Of course ISIS, Boko Haram and Al Shabab are claiming "divine authority." That's what religious extremists do, of all stripes. It just so happens that the strain of religious extremism -- a devastating, often genocidal influence wherever and whenever it occurs -- is of the Muslim variety.

Outside of killing dead the bastards that do awful things in the name of their sky deity, the best way to combat such extremism is to isolate it. Which means not giving it the credence of calling it Muslim (I know many conservatives get all butthurt when Obama won't call ISIS "Muslim terrorists" but there's a reason for it, that dates back to the Bush administration); it means not marginalizing an entire religion based on the actions of its (at this point, discomfortably numerous) extremists; it means not screaming "BUT LOOK AT THE KORAN" as if that's a solution to anything, as if horribly violent passages don't exist in every Bronze Age Book of Superstitions known to man.

The two nations on earth with the most Muslims are Indonesia and India, neither of which have a real Muslim terrorist problem. India had the 2008 Mumbai attack (carried out by 90% foreign fighters), but has, for the most part, kept it under control. Indonesia hasn't had anything of note since Bali in '05. The problem is the governments in the ME that will fund and train terrorists to fight outside their borders in order to make Islamic terrorism someone else's problem.

But those governments were lucky enough to have a bunch of dinosaurs die underneath their sand a few million years ago, so nothing meaningful will be done about their complicity.

Seems like you have chosen to talk about India instead of Pakistan they both have the same amount of muslims however India is only 15% muslim where Pakistan is over 95% mulsim and the world leader in state sponsored terrorism.

 

[Kobie]

Yes turn the other cheek has been used as an excuse to commit so much violence

Cherry picking ONE verse while ignoring the whole of Leviticus?

Seems like you have chosen to talk about India instead of Pakistan they both have the same amount of muslims however India is only 15% muslim where Pakistan is over 95% mulsim and the world leader in state sponsored terrorism.

Did I make any caveats? No, I did not. India has more Muslims than Pakistan. Fact. Does Pakistan being 95% Muslim negate any of my other points?

F Pakistan; I have as much use for that country as I do a goddamn hole in the head.

It's like you only read the words you want to, and ignore anything that doesn't fit your stunted, juvenile worldview. You literally ignored 90% of my post in order to concentrate on a math problem of your own design.

 

[Crovax]

Cherry picking ONE verse while ignoring the whole of Leviticus?

Apparently you seem to have a limited understanding of Christianity and the reading comprehension of a 4th grader.

Take the "cherry picked" verse

You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. -Matthew 5:38-39

Jesus is saying his words supersede old law.

 

[Kobie]

Apparently you seem to have a limited understanding of Christianity and the reading comprehension of a 4th grader.

I've most likely forgotten more about Christianity than you've ever known.

Take the "cherry picked" verse

You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. -Matthew 5:38-39

For starters, "eye for an eye" comes from the Code of Hammurabi, and it is an argument against excessive punishment. It was basically "eye for an eye, rather than eye for being run through by a scimitar." But I guess that's just my bad reading comprehension there!

Jesus is saying his words supersede old law.

I'm sorry, but as long as certain Christians continue to use Leviticus as an argument against treating homosexuals like people, I have a very hard time buying into the "Christians now don't believe in the Old Testament because Jesus" Get-Out-Of-Hell-Free card. Call me cynical, I suppose.

I see you conveniently ignored the rest of my post. Much like, apparently, Jesus told you to ignore the Ten Commandments! (Exodus, yanno. Old law.)

 

[RabidAlpaca]

When I comment about what's in the Qur'an, I frequently get this response, "OOOOOOOH, so AAAALLLLLLLLL Muslims are ..........." (Bill Maher got exactly that response from Islamic scholar Ben Affleck).

No. What Islam teaches and what individual Muslims do are two completely different topics. I recently proved that Islam allows for the rape of captives and slaves. It's in the Qur'an. It's in the hadiths. Mohamed encouraged it. The first Muslims did it. It just doesn't get any more Islamic than that.

BUT, it obviously doesn't mean that hundreds of millions of Muslim men are running around grabbing women in the name of jihad and raping them. What it does mean is that when ISIS, Boko Haram, and Al Shabab claim to have divine authority to do so, they're telling the truth, and it's one of the many truths we need to recognize in order to have a meaningful discussion about Islam.

It's more than possible to defend Muslims as individuals while at the same time directing well earned criticism at their religion.

The bible condones rape and murder on multiple occaisions. Remember when Moses and his troops attacked the Midianites? When they won, god told him to kill all of the non-virgins, men, women, and children, then to take the virgins for themselves. [Numbers 31:7-18]

As you stated, just because their holy book is full of horrific atrocities and calls for non-believers and sinners to be murdered, doesn't mean ALL Christians are bad people.

Apparently you seem to have a limited understanding of Christianity and the reading comprehension of a 4th grader.

Take the "cherry picked" verse

You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. -Matthew 5:38-39

Jesus is saying his words supersede old law.

What actually happens is you get to pick and choose what you do and don't like out of the old testament, and label everything you don't like as "Oh, that was done away with the new covenant". All those calls to murder homosexuals are still good though, right?

 

[shrubnose]

I agree. But it should remain clear that

all of Islam is taught from the same book.

Whoop-dee-doo.

The Christians who did the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades read from the same book as the Christians who pass out bologna sandwiches to hungry people.

:lol:

Just sayin'.

 

[RogueWarrior]

Apparently you seem to have a limited understanding of Christianity and the reading comprehension of a 4th grader.

Take the "cherry picked" verse

You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. -Matthew 5:38-39

Jesus is saying his words supersede old law.

The bible condones rape and murder on multiple occaisions. Remember when Moses and his troops attacked the Midianites? When they won, god told him to kill all of the non-virgins, men, women, and children, then to take the virgins for themselves. [Numbers 31:7-18]

As you stated, just because their holy book is full of horrific atrocities and calls for non-believers and sinners to be murdered, doesn't mean ALL Christians are bad people.



What actually happens is you get to pick and choose what you do and don't like out of the old testament, and label everything you don't like as "Oh, that was done away with the new covenant". All those calls to murder homosexuals are still good though, right?

Love it when christians rationalize the old testament away.

Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations.

Deuteronomy 7:9
Hasn't been a thousand generations of humans yet. Maybe he meant mosquitoes?

Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations ... an everlasting covenant.

1 Chronicles 16:15

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Psalm 119:160

Lets hear more bull**** about a second covenant.
christians have 613 commandments to obey. Enjoy.
opcorn2:

 

[Paleocon]

All of Christianity is taught from the same (violent) book.

I'm not drawing parallels with modern day behavior. The Muslim world is in serious need of an enlightenment. Of course ISIS, Boko Haram and Al Shabab are claiming "divine authority." That's what religious extremists do, of all stripes. It just so happens that the strain of religious extremism -- a devastating, often genocidal influence wherever and whenever it occurs -- is of the Muslim variety.

Outside of killing dead the bastards that do awful things in the name of their sky deity, the best way to combat such extremism is to isolate it. Which means not giving it the credence of calling it Muslim (I know many conservatives get all butthurt when Obama won't call ISIS "Muslim terrorists" but there's a reason for it, that dates back to the Bush administration); it means not marginalizing an entire religion based on the actions of its (at this point, discomfortably numerous) extremists; it means not screaming "BUT LOOK AT THE KORAN" as if that's a solution to anything, as if horribly violent passages don't exist in every Bronze Age Book of Superstitions known to man.

The two nations on earth with the most Muslims are Indonesia and India, neither of which have a real Muslim terrorist problem. India had the 2008 Mumbai attack (carried out by 90% foreign fighters), but has, for the most part, kept it under control. Indonesia hasn't had anything of note since Bali in '05. The problem is the governments in the ME that will fund and train terrorists to fight outside their borders in order to make Islamic terrorism someone else's problem.

But those governments were lucky enough to have a bunch of dinosaurs die underneath their sand a few million years ago, so nothing meaningful will be done about their complicity.

The Bible doesn't approve of any immoral behavior. It's not comparable to the Quran.

 

[shrubnose]

Love it when christians rationalize the old testament away.

Deuteronomy 7:9
Hasn't been a thousand generations of humans yet. Maybe he meant mosquitoes?

1 Chronicles 16:15
Psalm 119:160

Lets hear more bull**** about a second covenant.

christians have 613 commandments to obey. Enjoy.

opcorn2:

Forever is a long time,especially towards the end.

:lol:

 

[D_NATURED]

The Bible doesn't approve of any immoral behavior. It's not comparable to the Quran.

I noticed you use the word "immoral" rather than violent. Obviously, if god commands it, it's not immoral, right? Wrong.

Morality is not a divine mandate, it's a human choice.

 

[Paleocon]

I noticed you use the word "immoral" rather than violent. Obviously, if god commands it, it's not immoral, right? Wrong.

Morality is not a divine mandate, it's a human choice.

If morality were defined by human will, it'd be impossible for anyone to behave immorally.

It's certainly not the case that all violence is bad.

 

[Crovax]

Love it when christians rationalize the old testament away.

Love when non-Christans think they know more about Christianity than Christians

christians have 613 commandments to obey. Enjoy.

No, Jewish people have 613 laws to obey it called the Talmud

Pretty much everything Jesus says invalidates those old laws

Take the prohibition on eating pork and shellfish

“Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” -Mark 7:18-19

 

[Orly?]

This moronic deflection onto Christianity every time islam gets brought up is ridiculous..

This thread is about the difference between islam and all muslims, you guys with your christian bashing are way off topic..

 

[coldjoint]

Whoop-dee-doo.

The Christians who did the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades read from the same book as the Christians who pass out bologna sandwiches to hungry people.

:lol:



Just sayin'.

That is the lamest excuse(apology) I've heard in a long time. And you forgot the IRA.

 

[shrubnose]

That is the lamest excuse(apology) I've heard in a long time. And you forgot the IRA.

I said what I wanted to say. No one forces you to read my posts, if you don't like my comments don't read them.

 

[coldjoint]

I said what I wanted to say. No one forces you to read my posts, if you don't like my comments don't read them.

Same here.

 

[HonestJoe]

It's more than possible to defend Muslims as individuals while at the same time directing well earned criticism at their religion.

I'd suggest that you're half-way to a revelation.

Like pretty much all religions, there isn't a singular agreed definition of what Islam actually is and you can't simply take your interpretation of the Koran and declare that is Islam. Even actual Muslims don't get to do that. Just as it's flawed to criticize all Muslims, it's flawed to criticize all Islam. We can criticize individual beliefs, opinions, words and actions but only in the context of people who actually express or support them.

 

[JC Callender]

All of Christianity is taught from the same (violent) book.

I'm not drawing parallels with modern day behavior. The Muslim world is in serious need of an enlightenment. Of course ISIS, Boko Haram and Al Shabab are claiming "divine authority." That's what religious extremists do, of all stripes. It just so happens that the strain of religious extremism -- a devastating, often genocidal influence wherever and whenever it occurs -- is of the Muslim variety.

Outside of killing dead the bastards that do awful things in the name of their sky deity, the best way to combat such extremism is to isolate it. Which means not giving it the credence of calling it Muslim (I know many conservatives get all butthurt when Obama won't call ISIS "Muslim terrorists" but there's a reason for it, that dates back to the Bush administration); it means not marginalizing an entire religion based on the actions of its (at this point, discomfortably numerous) extremists; it means not screaming "BUT LOOK AT THE KORAN" as if that's a solution to anything, as if horribly violent passages don't exist in every Bronze Age Book of Superstitions known to man.

The two nations on earth with the most Muslims are Indonesia and India, neither of which have a real Muslim terrorist problem. India had the 2008 Mumbai attack (carried out by 90% foreign fighters), but has, for the most part, kept it under control. Indonesia hasn't had anything of note since Bali in '05. The problem is the governments in the ME that will fund and train terrorists to fight outside their borders in order to make Islamic terrorism someone else's problem.

But those governments were lucky enough to have a bunch of dinosaurs die underneath their sand a few million years ago, so nothing meaningful will be done about their complicity.

You should read it all then, and once you're done, tell me the violent intentions Jesus had when he said:

"AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' 31"The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

 

[Kobie]

You should read it all then, and once you're done, tell me the violent intentions Jesus had when he said:

"AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' 31"The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

You do realize there's a whole testament before all the lovey-dovey Jesus stuff, right?

 

[JC Callender]

You do realize there's a whole testament before all the lovey-dovey Jesus stuff, right?

And did Jesus make any changes to Old Testament laws?

 

[Kobie]

And did Jesus make any changes to Old Testament laws?

Could you possibly be missing the point harder? If Leviticus suddenly Doesn't Count Because Jesus, why do so many Christians cite it when voicing their opposition to homosexuality, for example?

My main point is that, despite the violent, kill-the-infidel **** in the Koran, a billion-plus Muslims have no problem going through life without becoming head-lopping monsters, so trying to use "BUT TEH KORAN IS VIOLENT" as some sort of argument is all sorts of useless.

 

[Orly?]

Why just ignore all the violent kill-the-infidel stuff in the Koran? It seems a whole big chunk of all who call themselves "muslims" don't ignore it..

Trying to justify islam by comparing it to Christianity as some sort of argument is all sorts of useless.