• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Senator Graham offers strong defense of Geneva Convention (1 Viewer)

danarhea

Slayer of the DP Newsbot
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 27, 2005
Messages
43,602
Reaction score
26,256
Location
Houston, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
What impresses me most about Lindsey Graham's interview on Face the Nation, was that he told the interviewers that the US could survive without him in the Senate. Graham is willing to put his beliefs ahead of partisanship to the point that he is also willing to put his job on the line.

Folks, if Lindsey Graham considered running for President, I would seriously consider voting for him.

And what did Lindsey Graham do before he was in the Senate? He was a JAG in the military. 'Nuff said.

Article is here.
 
Last edited:
danarhea said:
What impresses me most about Lindsey Graham's interview on Face the Nation, was that he told the interviewers that the US could survive without him in the Senate. Graham is willing to put his beliefs ahead of partisanship to the point that he is also willing to put his job on the line.

Folks, if Lindsey Graham considered running for President, I would seriously consider voting for him.

And what did Lindsey Graham do before he was in the Senate? He was a JAG in the military. 'Nuff said.

Article is here.

danarhea, I taped Face the Nation and rewound it so I could hear him again. He won me over entirely with that statement he made. I have nothing but admiration for him. What a principled man. I would seriously consider voting for him.

McCain was pretty impressive on George Stephanapoulos.
 
NO WAY!! Lindsey Graham voted for, fought for and was by the side of John McCain all the way for this amnesty program. He voted for it despite the fact the people who put him in office were telling him not to, if this is the type of President you want, one who will not listen to you then he is the man.

I hope he is voted out of office for his actions along with McCain.
 
jonathanC. said:
NO WAY!! Lindsey Graham voted for, fought for and was by the side of John McCain all the way for this amnesty program. He voted for it despite the fact the people who put him in office were telling him not to, if this is the type of President you want, one who will not listen to you then he is the man.

I hope he is voted out of office for his actions along with McCain.

What I find so offensive of your mindset is that it's people who have never been on the battlefield who are protesting this issue. Those who have served their country ON THE BATTLEFIELD have first-hand knowledge of what kind of repercussions could occur if we don't take the moral high ground. But maybe it's people like you who have no idea what it means to take the moral high ground.
 
aps said:
danarhea, I taped Face the Nation and rewound it so I could hear him again. He won me over entirely with that statement he made. I have nothing but admiration for him. What a principled man. I would seriously consider voting for him.

McCain was pretty impressive on George Stephanapoulos.

SEN. GRAHAM: This war can take on many different dimensions. Nation states could become involved not just rogue people like al Qaeda and Taliban. There are CIA agents all over the world trying to protect us. What would happen if a CIA agent were captured in Iran trying to suppress their nuclear program, and the Iranian government put this person on trial as a war criminal, and the Iranian prosecutor had a file marked "secret," gave it to their judge and their jury and said convict this man, and they never shared the evidence with the American agent? We would go nuts. We would say that secret trial violates the Geneva Convention standards for trying people.

Spys don't have Geneva Convention protections.

Art. 46. Spies 1. Notwithstanding any other provision of the Conventions or of this Protocol, any member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict who falls into the power of an adverse Party while engaging in espionage shall not have the right to the status of prisoner of war and may be treated as a spy.
 
Stinger said:
SEN. GRAHAM: This war can take on many different dimensions. Nation states could become involved not just rogue people like al Qaeda and Taliban. There are CIA agents all over the world trying to protect us. What would happen if a CIA agent were captured in Iran trying to suppress their nuclear program, and the Iranian government put this person on trial as a war criminal, and the Iranian prosecutor had a file marked "secret," gave it to their judge and their jury and said convict this man, and they never shared the evidence with the American agent? We would go nuts. We would say that secret trial violates the Geneva Convention standards for trying people.

Spys don't have Geneva Convention protections.

Art. 46. Spies 1. Notwithstanding any other provision of the Conventions or of this Protocol, any member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict who falls into the power of an adverse Party while engaging in espionage shall not have the right to the status of prisoner of war and may be treated as a spy.

Stinger, I don't think that was his point. His point was that we would go nuts if any American was not given legal rights like we have here in the United States.
 
Sen. Graham said:
We cannot have a great nation when we start redefining who we are under the guise of redefining our law.

I could not agree more. I missed this interview, but I am now a great admirer of this man.
 
aps said:
Stinger, I don't think that was his point. His point was that we would go nuts if any American was not given legal rights like we have here in the United States.

If they are legal combatants. If they are fighting for a terrorist organization as an illegal combatant they get what they deserve and certainly the US government should not step in to help them. But Graham was specifically talking about a spy, and spy's DO NOT have Geneva Convention protections.

Do you think we should be able to question Al qaeda capties?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen. Graham
We cannot have a great nation when we start redefining who we are under the guise of redefining our law.


mixedmedia said:
I could not agree more. I missed this interview, but I am now a great admirer of this man.

I think we are defining ourselves. We will treat unlawful combatants humanely but we WILL question them and we WILL do so vigorously. I only wish our enemies would treat their capties as well.
 
jonathanC. said:
NO WAY!! Lindsey Graham voted for, fought for and was by the side of John McCain all the way for this amnesty program. He voted for it despite the fact the people who put him in office were telling him not to, if this is the type of President you want, one who will not listen to you then he is the man.
I hope he is voted out of office for his actions along with McCain.

Nope. I believe that man is GW Bush and he has already served his two terms.
 
Stinger said:
If they are legal combatants. If they are fighting for a terrorist organization as an illegal combatant they get what they deserve and certainly the US government should not step in to help them. But Graham was specifically talking about a spy, and spy's DO NOT have Geneva Convention protections.

Do you think we should be able to question Al qaeda capties?

Absolutely. But we need not torture them.
 
Myself, I don't think we need to torture Al Queda either. We should kill them. Dead. Guilt by association.

But we should get all the info we can from them first. But if after a week or so, they don't give it up, a bullet to the head will suffice. Why waste water and oxygen?

But that's just me.
 
Stinger said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen. Graham
We cannot have a great nation when we start redefining who we are under the guise of redefining our law.




I think we are defining ourselves. We will treat unlawful combatants humanely but we WILL question them and we WILL do so vigorously. I only wish our enemies would treat their capties as well.

I don't think anyone is voicing opposition to having unlawful combatants questioned, vigorously even, but I think many Americans are concerned about where the lines of our new definition will be drawn. And I believe we defined ourselves on the issue of torture when we signed the Geneva Conventions. I am not so distrustful of the Bush Administration to believe that they will try to draw the lines beyond the pale, I have to believe that they feel at least some of the same trepidation that folks like me do concerning this issue. But I do think it is vitally important that Americans pay close attention and not take it lightly. And also, to realize that it doesn't matter who captives are, where they came from, or what they did. The question truly is about who we are as a nation and what we stand for. I think this is one of the most important questions we have to face in this struggle against radicalism.
 
aps said:
Absolutely. But we need not torture them.

Interrogated that is.

POW's cannot be interrogated. Should they recieved POW treatement as accorded by the Geneva Conventions then?
 
Stinger said:
Interrogated that is.

POW's cannot be interrogated. Should they recieved POW treatement as accorded by the Geneva Conventions then?

I don't know. I don't know enough to respond intelligently to this question.
 
aps said:
I don't know. I don't know enough to respond intelligently to this question.

Then why are you engaging in the debate? It is a very KEY point. Right now the CIA has stopped all interrogation and questioning of terrorist or suspected terrorist they capture. We can't put them in the position of going to jail thinking they are following the law.

Congress is trying to address this. The Dems and a couple of Rep's want to give them POW protections. Means we can't interrogate them. Name, Rank and Serial number according to the Geneva Conventions. The Republicans want to spell out how we interpret those clause so we can get back to trying to keep us safe.

Which side are you on. How will you vote in November?
 
Stinger said:
Then why are you engaging in the debate? It is a very KEY point. Right now the CIA has stopped all interrogation and questioning of terrorist or suspected terrorist they capture. We can't put them in the position of going to jail thinking they are following the law.

Congress is trying to address this. The Dems and a couple of Rep's want to give them POW protections. Means we can't interrogate them. Name, Rank and Serial number according to the Geneva Conventions. The Republicans want to spell out how we interpret those clause so we can get back to trying to keep us safe.

Which side are you on. How will you vote in November?

The military cannot interrogate prisoners of war. They do not interrogate irregulars out of uniform either from what I saw on report tonight. The CIA cannot interrogate enemy regulars in uniform (like there are any of those operating these days). They can interrogate insurgents. theoretically the US military could shoot on sight or upon capture any irregular not in unform as a spy

btw when that Saigon Military Police Chief shot the VC in that famous Eddie Stone picture that was no violation of any law
 
jonathanC. said:
NO WAY!! Lindsey Graham voted for, fought for and was by the side of John McCain all the way for this amnesty program. He voted for it despite the fact the people who put him in office were telling him not to, if this is the type of President you want, one who will not listen to you then he is the man.

I hope he is voted out of office for his actions along with McCain.

I suppose another word of his actions would be "principle." Yes?
 
Senator Graham's defense of the Geneva Conventions leaves a lot to be desired. In fact, its actually pretty naive, to say the least. Graham said:

"Weakening the Geneva Convention protections is an unnecessary step and will put our military members and others defending our nation at risk by jeopardizing the protections they currently are provided.

"What is being billed as 'clarifying' our treaty obligations will be seen as 'withdrawing' from the treaty obligations. It will set precedent which could come back to haunt us."

To which one blogger has replied, rather cogently:

Exactly what protections are our troops being provided by the Geneva Convention? No enemy we've ever fought or are fighting has abided by it. So, in real world terms, the Geneva Convention provides no protection for our troops whatsoever. If we completely withdrew from the Geneva Convention tomorrow, it would have no impact at all on how our troops are treated.

Granted, the Geneva Convention could be of use in the unlikely event that we were to get into a war with Belgium, Italy, Spain or some other Western European nation. However, isn't the argument we're hearing from Europeans and American liberals that we should treat the terrorists we've captured by the rules of the Geneva Convention (as a matter of fact, better than the rules require) despite the fact that they haven't signed onto the treaty? Since that's the case, why wouldn't the same rules apply to any signatories of the treaty that we fought with? Even if, theoretically, we were doing something as evil as kicking their captured soldiers into industrial paper shredders for fun, shouldn't they give our soldiers every benefit the Geneva Convention requires?

What's that, you say? If we don't do it for their soldiers, why should we expect them to treat our troops with respect? Great! Now why doesn't that apply to our troops and Al-Qaeda? If Al-Qaeda is torturing and murdering our troops, why should we treat their captured prisoners as well as, say, American soldiers that are thrown into the brig? Why should we treat some terrorist from Saudi Arabia who wants to kill American citizens like he's a uniformed soldier who follows the rules of war or worse yet, like he has the same constitutional rights as an American citizen?

We shouldn't!

If the Geneva Convention were actually being properly applied, it wouldn't apply to terrorists. If people, including irresponsible Supreme Court Justices, want to pretend that it actually does apply to terrorists, then the Geneva Convention has outlived its usefulness and should be abandoned.

Before the August recess, most Republicans in Congress appeared to support aggressive interrogations of suspected terrorist leaders and tough but fair military trials. And many Democrats, determined to win control of Congress in November, weren't raising sharp objections.

But that was before Sen. McCain, along with Sens. Lindsey Graham and John Warner, turned a debate over rules to govern interrogations and military tribunals into a shouting match over "torturing" detainees. It's notable that, unlike Abu Ghraib, this isn't a controversy over documented abuses. In its proposed legislation, the White House wants to ratify, not expand, its current terrorist interrogation policies and its planned terrorist tribunals.
 
oldreliable67 said:
Senator Graham's defense of the Geneva Conventions leaves a lot to be desired. In fact, its actually pretty naive, to say the least. Graham said:



To which one blogger has replied, rather cogently:



Before the August recess, most Republicans in Congress appeared to support aggressive interrogations of suspected terrorist leaders and tough but fair military trials. And many Democrats, determined to win control of Congress in November, weren't raising sharp objections.

But that was before Sen. McCain, along with Sens. Lindsey Graham and John Warner, turned a debate over rules to govern interrogations and military tribunals into a shouting match over "torturing" detainees. It's notable that, unlike Abu Ghraib, this isn't a controversy over documented abuses. In its proposed legislation, the White House wants to ratify, not expand, its current terrorist interrogation policies and its planned terrorist tribunals.

I don't think it has anything to do with how our soldiers are treated by Al Qaeda. Again, it is about who we are. They are not the ones re-thinking their principles. And I think it is pertinent to note that, if Abu Ghraib had not happened, this controversy wouldn't be so sharp. But it did.

What I can't seem to stop thinking about over the last twenty-four hours is that he we are, a nation so concerned with the effect violent movies and video games and even sex or nudity on television will have on our children, being so cavalier about the effects re-writing this facet of our national character might have on our society and the way we view ourselves and others. I understand the nature of the other side. I understand that most of the people we fight will not be adhering to the Geneva Conventions. But I also thought I understood how we were different. It continues to bother me.
 
TurtleDude said:
The military cannot interrogate prisoners of war. They do not interrogate irregulars out of uniform either from what I saw on report tonight.

From what I am reading and hearing ALL interrogations have stopped.

Another win for the terrorist.

theoretically the US military could shoot on sight or upon capture any irregular not in unform as a spy

Yep, a spy can be summarily executed.

btw when that Saigon Military Police Chief shot the VC in that famous Eddie Stone picture that was no violation of any law

Once again correct, and very few know that because the media played it differently.
 
oldreliable67 said:
Senator Graham's defense of the Geneva Conventions leaves a lot to be desired. In fact, its actually pretty naive, to say the least. Graham said:



To which one blogger has replied, rather cogently:



Before the August recess, most Republicans in Congress appeared to support aggressive interrogations of suspected terrorist leaders and tough but fair military trials. And many Democrats, determined to win control of Congress in November, weren't raising sharp objections.

But that was before Sen. McCain, along with Sens. Lindsey Graham and John Warner, turned a debate over rules to govern interrogations and military tribunals into a shouting match over "torturing" detainees. It's notable that, unlike Abu Ghraib, this isn't a controversy over documented abuses. In its proposed legislation, the White House wants to ratify, not expand, its current terrorist interrogation policies and its planned terrorist tribunals.

Of course, bloggers are entitled to their opinions, but let me ask this:

1) Did the blogger serve in the military.

2) If the blogger served, then what did he do in the military.

I ask these questions because they are pertinent to the discussion. Lindsey Graham was a Judge Advocate General in the military, so he knows what he is talking about.
 
danarhea said:
Of course, bloggers are entitled to their opinions, but let me ask this:

1) Did the blogger serve in the military.

2) If the blogger served, then what did he do in the military.

I ask these questions because they are pertinent to the discussion. Lindsey Graham was a Judge Advocate General in the military, so he knows what he is talking about.

Beg to differ: whether or not the blogger served in the military is not pertinent nor relevant to this question. Neither is Graham's experience as a JAG. I know you will disagree with these assertions, and you, like the blogger quoted above, are entitled. In fact, the more I hear of Graham's assertions, the more it seems to me that his JAG experience is getting in the way of his making a rational decision in this matter: he begins to remind me of the old saying, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." He either doesn't know enough or doesn't know as much as he thinks he does, and is basing his assertions on too little knowledge and attempting to apply old-war experiences to new-era contexts. He thinks his knowledge base is extensive and applicable when it isn't. Just my impression, but he would do better to step back and think about this matter in the context of today's assymetric warfare than in the context of his JAG experience.

Just my impressions. Certainly, YMMV.
 
oldreliable67 said:
Beg to differ: whether or not the blogger served in the military is not pertinent nor relevant to this question. Neither is Graham's experience as a JAG. I know you will disagree with these assertions, and you, like the blogger quoted above, are entitled. In fact, the more I hear of Graham's assertions, the more it seems to me that his JAG experience is getting in the way of his making a rational decision in this matter: he begins to remind me of the old saying, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." He either doesn't know enough or doesn't know as much as he thinks he does, and is basing his assertions on too little knowledge and attempting to apply old-war experiences to new-era contexts. He thinks his knowledge base is extensive and applicable when it isn't. Just my impression, but he would do better to step back and think about this matter in the context of today's assymetric warfare than in the context of his JAG experience.

Just my impressions. Certainly, YMMV.

A well thought out argument. No namecalling, no verbal jabs, no zingers - Well done. I wish others argued as you just did. Thank you.

However, I strongly disagree with you on the point that you made. You are trying to tell me that someone's knowledge of the law is getting in the way of his argument? His argument WAS based on the law. Not only that, but he also gave his argument based on what our own troops might face themselves, if captured. If our own soldiers were subjected to repeated simulated drowning, only to be pulled out of the water at the point of losing consiousness, over and over again, in order so that our enemies could extract false confessions from them, would you support that?
 
Last edited:
danarhea said:
he also gave his argument based on what our own troops might face themselves, if captured. If our own soldiers were subjected to repeated simulated drowning, only to be pulled out of the water at the point of losing consiousness, over and over again, in order so that our enemies could extract false confessions from them, would you support that?

Lets see, waterboarding versus beheading and mutilations and having your charred corpse mutilated and strung up and left hanging publicly from a bridge? Which would you choose?

In reality, the debate over the Article 3 of the Conventions is something of a false choice. The presumption of many, including Graham, is that it will protect our military, but from what and by whom? The only adversaries likely to adhere to the standards are those who are also signatories, which AQ and the like are not.

Furthermore, we shouldn't ignore the larger debate that has to do with affording terrorists some form of "due process", whether in the form of military tribunals or UCMJ rules or who-knows-what. The debate over Article 3 shoul d not be considered in a vacuum. It is but one part of the larger question.

In considering this, lets back up a moment and consider the charges against the intelligence community for being unable to "connect the dots" prior to 9/11. In an article first published in 2004 and recently reprinted by the WSJ, Andrew McCarthy -- a former chief assistant U.S. attorney in New York, and led the 1995 terrorism prosecution of Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman in connection with the first World Trade Center bombing -- wrote:

As Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has observed, weakness is provocative. The fecklessness of meeting terrorist attacks with court proceedings--trials that take years to prepare and months to present, and that, even when successful, neutralize only an infinitesimal percentage of the actual terrorist population--emboldened bin Laden. But just as hurtful was the government's promotion of terrorism trials in the first place. They were a useful vehicle if the strategic object was to orchestrate an appearance of justice being done. As a national security strategy, they were suicidal, providing terrorists with a banquet of information they could never have dreamed of acquiring on their own.

Under discovery rules that apply to American criminal proceedings, the government is required to provide to accused persons any information in its possession that can be deemed "material to the preparation of the defense" or that is even arguably exculpatory. The more broadly indictments are drawn (and terrorism indictments tend to be among the broadest), the greater the trove of revelation.

In addition, the government must disclose all prior statements made by witnesses it calls (and, often, witnesses it does not call).

This is a staggering quantum of information, certain to illuminate not only what the government knows about terrorist organizations but the intelligence agencies' methods and sources for obtaining that information. When, moreover, there is any dispute about whether a sensitive piece of information needs to be disclosed, the decision ends up being made by a judge on the basis of what a fair trial dictates, rather than by the executive branch on the basis of what public safety demands.

It is true that this mountain of intelligence is routinely surrendered along with appropriate judicial warnings: defendants may use it only in preparing for trial, and may not disseminate it for other purposes. Unfortunately, people who commit mass murder tend not to be terribly concerned about violating court orders (or, for that matter, about being hauled into court at all).

In 1995, just before trying the blind sheik (Omar Abdel Rahman) and eleven others, I duly complied with discovery law by writing a letter to the defense counsel listing 200 names of people who might be alleged as unindicted co-conspirators--i.e., people who were on the government's radar screen but whom there was insufficient evidence to charge. Six years later, my letter turned up as evidence in the trial of those who bombed our embassies in Africa. It seems that, within days of my having sent it, the letter had found its way to Sudan and was in the hands of bin Laden (who was on the list), having been fetched for him by an al-Qaeda operative who had gotten it from one of his associates.

When we purposely provide asymmetric treatment and tell them what we know--for what is blithely assumed to be the greater good of ensuring they get the same kind of physical treatment and fair trials as insider traders and tax cheats--we enable them not only to close the knowledge gap but to gain immense insight into our technological capacities, how our agencies think, and what our future moves are likely to be.

Andrew McCarthy closes his article with the following:

"No doubt, the next time something goes boom, these Senators and their myriad sympathizers will be among the first to wail about unconnected dots.

A political class that appreciated the stakes involved would not indulge in this sort of recklessness."


Indeed.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top Bottom