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Senate Wises Up and Blocks Extension of "Patriot" Act

Trajan Octavian Titus

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Hoot said:
There is no evidence that our previous civil liberties, before the Patriot Act, posed a barrier to the tracking of potential terrorists.

Instead of throwing the problem back in our face, and asking us whether we've personally experienced discrimination, why don't those of you on the right tell us why we need this act?

<<<continued from above>>>

At the Department of Justice, we have taken a comprehensive and concerted approach to this task. The Department has investigated hundreds of bias-motivated incidents involving violence or threats against individuals perceived to be Muslim, or of Arab, Middle Eastern, or South Asian origin - and we’ve obtained a number of important federal convictions. We’ve also assisted local law enforcement in its efforts to do the same, resulting in more than 150 additional bias-related criminal prosecutions.

In addition, we are working closely with leaders of these communities to ensure that we are doing everything we can to promote fairness and respect for all people as we confront our common enemy. Senior officials in the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department have held meetings with leaders of Muslim, Sikh, Arab, and South-Asian American organizations in Washington and throughout the country to ensure that community concerns are being heard and addressed. And our Community Relations Service has held town and community meetings around the country aimed at ensuring better understanding among diverse communities.

Combating racism and bias against our Muslim citizens is both a moral imperative and essential to success in the War on Terror. As the President explained in his second inaugural address, “our country must abandon all the habits of racism, because we cannot carry the message of freedom and the baggage of bigotry at the same time.”

Half a world away, we are sowing the seeds of justice in Iraq. One year ago, the Central Criminal Court of Iraq had the capacity to prosecute fewer than 10 trials and investigative hearings per month. In the first two weeks of September 2005 alone, the Court prosecuted more than 50 multi-defendant trials, and conducted 133 investigative hearings. This is progress for the Iraqi people who are desperate for a measure of normalcy and order, who want the lawlessness and brutality to end.

The Court is now expanding its reach throughout Iraq with separate branches in local provinces. Since the fall of Saddam Hussein, the Department of Justice has helped to train hundreds of Iraqi judges. These judges are now busy resolving cases under Iraqi law - more than 20,000 felony cases since 2003. This element of the President’s National Strategy for Victory in Iraq will help diminish the rule of terrorists in Iraq - and I am proud that the Department continues to play a role in helping to bring relief to a population thirsting for justice.

***

History shows that our forefathers have remained vigilant and resolute in past conflicts similar to the one we now face.

During the long winters and many losses between the first shot at Lexington and the final victory six years later at Yorktown, even Washington and those most loyal to the revolutionary cause considered giving up their fight. Other good people quit the cause altogether.

Those who fought for union and equality in the Civil War had many dark days after bloody battles like Gettysburg where - as hard as it is for us to imagine now - they doubted the worthiness of their cause.

And there were those during World War II who said that the costs and dangers associated with liberating Europe from the Nazis was too much for this country to bear when it could remain safely ensconced an ocean away from the bloodshed.

Now it is our generation’s turn to write history. We must reaffirm and rededicate ourselves to protecting this country for our children and grandchildren.

If we are to prevail in this struggle, we must show the same resolve and determination our forefathers did in the midst of the most trying conflicts of their day - from Valley Forge to Gettysburg to the Battle of the Bulge. At the same time, we must wage this war in ways that are true to our principles and values. We cannot allow ourselves to fall prey to the same sort of vicious cultural biases that our enemies display.

In November 1942, after a series of Allied victories, Winston Churchill gave an impassioned plea for the British people to be as “equally resolute and active in the face of victory” as they had been in weathering defeat after defeat through the dark days of 1939 and 1940. Churchill knew that the future of the war effort, even in late 1942, remained gravely uncertain, telling his audience: “I promise nothing. I predict nothing.”

Yet Churchill concluded with words asking for endurance and resolve that are critically appropriate for our time. Churchill said, “Do not let us be led away by any fair-seeming appearances of fortune; let us rather put our trust in those deep, slow-moving tides that have borne us thus far already, and will surely bear us forward, if we know how to use them, until we reach the harbour where we would be.”

We have not yet reached that harbour. So I would ask that each of you assume the mantle of Churchill’s firm resolve and stout-heartedness. The terrorists killed nearly 3,000 Americans in our homeland on a single day, and we cannot doubt that they would gladly do so again tomorrow - and again every day thereafter.

To succeed, we must continue to pressure the terrorists on each and every front in this unconventional war and do so with all the tools at our disposal - from the weapons of war to those of the criminal justice system and of the war of ideas and values. It is only by these slow-moving but effective means that we will continue to ensure the safety of our Nation and preserve America as a symbol of political and personal freedom for our children, as our forefathers did for us.

Thank you. May God bless each of you and may He continue to bless America.

I look forward to your questions.

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2005/December/05_opa_641.html
 
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Trajan Octavian Titus

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Hoot said:
There is no evidence that our previous civil liberties, before the Patriot Act, posed a barrier to the tracking of potential terrorists.

Instead of throwing the problem back in our face, and asking us whether we've personally experienced discrimination, why don't those of you on the right tell us why we need this act?

Safeguards are in place
Security Letters protect people's rights as well as fight terrorism.
By Rachel Brand and John Pistole

The Justice Department cannot secure our nation against terrorist attack unless investigators are equipped with tools that allow them to disrupt plots before they can be carried out. These same tools must protect civil liberties. National Security Letters (NSLs) satisfy both requirements.

In national security investigations, the FBI must follow up on every tip and every threat. The American people demand as much. NSLs, which predate the USA Patriot Act, enable the FBI to do so quickly and unobtrusively.

An NSL is simply a request for information. It does not authorize the FBI to conduct a search or make a seizure. If the recipient of an NSL declines to produce the requested information, the FBI cannot compel him to do so; only a federal court has that authority.

NSLs are subject to two other important limitations. First, the FBI may issue them only to obtain information relevant to an international terrorism or espionage investigation. They are not available in criminal investigations or domestic terrorism investigations.

Second, they may be used only to obtain narrow categories of information. For example, the FBI may obtain credit-card billing records to attempt to learn the identity of a terrorist suspect. An NSL may not be used to obtain the contents of an e-mail or a telephone conversation. And if the FBI went beyond these legal constraints, the recipient could challenge the NSL in court. In fact, the Justice Department supports amending the NSL statutes to make this right to challenge express where currently it is implied.

The NSL statutes do prohibit an NSL recipient from disclosing the fact that he received it. In international terrorism and espionage investigations, there are obvious reasons for this. If a terrorist were tipped off to the fact that the FBI was asking for his billing records, he might flee, destroy evidence, or even accelerate plans for an attack.

The Department of Justice is committed to protecting the USA against terrorist attack while using its authorities carefully, lawfully and consistent with civil liberties. The NSL authorities facilitate this mission.


Rachel Brand is assistant attorney general for the Office of Legal Policy at the Department of Justice. John Pistole is deputy director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20051109/oppose09.art.htm
 

Stace

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There was no need to post the articles in their entirety. You could have posted the first couple of lines, and then posted the link. It's annoying trying to read that much stuff in this format.
 

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Cry me a river. :2bigcry: :violin
I thought you conservatives were all about minimizing big government. What happened to that? So I guess it is when your party is in control then you don't want to minimize government, but want it to push through such a bill as the "Patriot" act that allows for conservatives to control all aspects of our life.
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

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jfuh said:
I thought you conservatives were all about minimizing big government. What happened to that? So I guess it is when your party is in control then you don't want to minimize government, but want it to push through such a bill as the "Patriot" act that allows for conservatives to control all aspects of our life.



Ya that's what the patriot act does allright . . . not.

You really should research the issues before you comment on them.

As for big government, conservatives are only conservative in the sense that they base their ideologies on Wilsonian principles of open markets and spreading Democracy.

I have a feeling that you would hate paleo-conservatives alot more than neo-cons that is if you even understood what the difference is which I'm sure you don't as your post clearly demonstrates.
 

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Ya that's what the patriot act does allright . . . not.

You really should research the issues before you comment on them.

As for big government, conservatives are only conservative in the sense that they base their ideologies on Wilsonian principles of open markets and spreading Democracy.

I have a feeling that you would hate paleo-conservatives alot more than neo-cons that is if you even understood what the difference is which I'm sure you don't as your post clearly demonstrates.

Why don't you try reading the Patriot Act http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html
 

jfuh

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Ya that's what the patriot act does allright . . . not.

You really should research the issues before you comment on them.

As for big government, conservatives are only conservative in the sense that they base their ideologies on Wilsonian principles of open markets and spreading Democracy.

I have a feeling that you would hate paleo-conservatives alot more than neo-cons that is if you even understood what the difference is which I'm sure you don't as your post clearly demonstrates.
More ad hominen nonsense tot? Backed into a little corner with no valid argument to make so you attack the poster? Lame.
I think you should take your own advice about research before comment, particularily if you don't think that the Patriot Act is about expanding governmental powers.
 

culturalrider

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jfuh said:
More ad hominen nonsense tot? Backed into a little corner with no valid argument to make so you attack the poster? Lame.
I think you should take your own advice about research before comment, particularily if you don't think that the Patriot Act is about expanding governmental powers.

Of course the Patriot Act expands government powers, and of course the Patriot Act damages the First, Fourth, and Fifth amendments. And of course I don't agree with the Patriot Act.
 

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FinnMacCool said:
Good. The patriot act is an attack on our civil libertires.

Not by any rational sense and it just passed. You are safer because of it, be thankful. Unless of course you are dealing with terrorist, then you better run and hide.
 

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Stinger said:
It was just passed, be thankful you are safer because of it.

Better to die free than to live in a gilded cage
 

aps

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dogger807 said:
Better to die free than to live in a gilded cage

dogger, you are absolutely correct! Bravo. :clap:
 

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Stinger said:
Not by any rational sense and it just passed. You are safer because of it, be thankful. Unless of course you are dealing with terrorist, then you better run and hide.

The above comment is a prime example of the reasons the patriot act passed again. Not because it "Makes Us Safer", though it may do so in some ways, but because little minds attempt (successfully) to spread fear through intimidation of the less informed in our society. If indeed the Patriot act was worthwhile, its provisions for Homeland security would be taken more seriously by the Administration ie: securing Nuclear/chemical/biological facilities....beefing up port security and inspection...etc....
Having attempted to read the entire document, I find it to be pretty good, but I do not see the Government actually implementing the parts that matter to me, and instead focusing on the parts that make me uncomfortable.
 

Stinger

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tecoyah said:
The above comment is a prime example of the reasons the patriot act passed again.

Actually my statement had nothing to do with it, it is merely an observation.

Not because it "Makes Us Safer", though it may do so in some ways, but because little minds attempt (successfully) to spread fear through intimidation of the less informed in our society.

And your is a prime example of why those who believe we can do nothing and survive lost. And you having to use invectives to make a point only show how weak your arguement really is.

If indeed the Patriot act was worthwhile, its provisions for Homeland security would be taken more seriously by the Administration ie: securing Nuclear/chemical/biological facilities....beefing up port security and inspection...etc....

First you don't know what the adminsitration and the DHS is doing because most of it is classified and you can't even state anything specific but have to resort to specious claims that they "aren't taking it seriuosly", really lame.


Having attempted to read the entire document, I find it to be pretty good, but I do not see the Government actually implementing the parts that matter to me, and instead focusing on the parts that make me uncomfortable.

Well if the Dems and left would refrain from the bogus attacks they engage in and actually try to do something to support increasing our securtiy we might be able to make better progress. Don't hold your breath.
 

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dogger807 said:
Better to die free than to live in a gilded cage

And you think for some reason you are not free anymore? When we were engage in WW2 there were lots of restrictions to "freedom", you could not go out and buy the food and gas you might have wanted to, there was a draft, there were blackouts, and yes there was hieghten security measures. Should we not have done those things because it would have been better to allow the NAZI's to win?
 

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Stinger said:
It was just passed, be thankful you are safer because of it.
How about this, since you extreemist conservatives love the patriot act so much. How about we make it only applicable to you while the rest of us live our lives freely.
Oh and just how does the patriot act make ME safer? How does looking at library records make me safer?
 

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Cry me a river. :2bigcry: :violin

[mod mode]

TOT. As per forum rules, when posting an article, you must either post the first paragraph or paraphrase. Don't forget the link.

[/mod mode]
 

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jfuh said:
1 How about this, since you extreemist conservatives love the patriot act so much. How about we make it only applicable to you while the rest of us live our lives freely.

2 Oh and just how does the patriot act make ME safer? How does looking at library records make me safer?


1 Actually most of the polls I 've seen since the very beginning show broad public support for the Patriot Act. "Extremists" should be a word reserved for those who oppose it, if any.

2 Are you kidding? Roving wiretaps keep us in the game. They are absolutely essential to preventing terrorism. And things like library records obviously help spot loonies who are studying how to make bombs and who are reading fanatical crap.
 

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aquapub said:
1 Actually most of the polls I 've seen since the very beginning show broad public support for the Patriot Act. "Extremists" should be a word reserved for those who oppose it, if any.
Fine, show me those polls of overwhelming public support.

aquapub said:
2 Are you kidding? Roving wiretaps keep us in the game. They are absolutely essential to preventing terrorism. And things like library records obviously help spot loonies who are studying how to make bombs and who are reading fanatical crap.
No, I'm not kidding. Welcome to the information age, library records? You have got to be ******** me. Look at the medium you're using now, you think a person looking to make a bomb need go to the library? You think a loony need go to a library for fanatical crap?
Do you honestly think that terrorists need to use phone systems to communicate with sleeper cells? Patriot act is nothing but a misleading name that in itself is the basis of un-patriotic acts.
 
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Sorry, but it passed and has now been sent to the President for signing. :2wave:
 

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KCConservative said:
Sorry, but it passed and has now been sent to the President for signing. :2wave:
After three major revisions. Wow, that must have pissed you off huh? That some of the totalitarian presidencies power was curbed? Especially that wire tap revision ooooo damn, still have to abide by FISA.
Damn those that revised the patriot act, damn you all to hell!
 
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