Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bill

[danarhea]

Just happened. John McCain, Lindsey Graham, John Warner, and Susan Collins defied Bush, and this was after Bush personally paid a visit to the House to lobby for his plan. The Senate has voted to defend the Constitution of the United States, and the Geneva Convention. They have passed their own version of the bill, which is quite different than what Bush wanted. This bill will be lawful, Constitutional, and moral. Kudos to the Senate.

Article is here.

 

[jfuh]

Re: Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bi

Ahh you beat me to it.... again.
Source

Additionally, the letter from Gen. Powell. Source

Sorry Mr. Bush, it is not agreed with overturning all rights granted under the Geneva convention nor is it agreed of torture - which you and your attorney general are so adament about.
Now before the apologetics start jumping at me for "supporting" terrorists, perhaps you can explain then how the measure does anything of the sort.

The measure that the panel endorsed and sent to the Senate floor would let suspects see evidence against them and would bar statements obtained through torture or coercion.

Seems perfectly reasonable.

 

[aps]

Just happened. John McCain, Lindsey Graham, John Warner, and Susan Collins defied Bush, and this was after Bush personally paid a visit to the House to lobby for his plan. The Senate has voted to defend the Constitution of the United States, and the Geneva Convention. They have passed their own version of the bill, which is quite different than what Bush wanted. This bill will be lawful, Constitutional, and moral. Kudos to the Senate.

Article is here.

I am sooooooooooo proud of them!!!

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bi

While I am glad they did it, deep down I feel they only did it because this is an election year and Bush's policies in regards to military tribunals are unfavorable amongst the people.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not, but I simply don't trust the senate to do the right thing unless they have something to gain for it.

 

[danarhea]

Re: Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bi

While I am glad they did it, deep down I feel they only did it because this is an election year and Bush's policies in regards to military tribunals are unfavorable amongst the people.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not, but I simply don't trust the senate to do the right thing unless they have something to gain for it.

That is an extremely cynical view, but I must admit, you could very well be right.

 

[26 X World Champs]

Re: Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bi

Just happened. John McCain, Lindsey Graham, John Warner, and Susan Collins defied Bush, and this was after Bush personally paid a visit to the House to lobby for his plan. The Senate has voted to defend the Constitution of the United States, and the Geneva Convention. They have passed their own version of the bill, which is quite different than what Bush wanted. This bill will be lawful, Constitutional, and moral. Kudos to the Senate.

Article is here.

The most important part of this is that these GOP Senators are putting principle ahead of party, thank God! Now this cannot be called the work of what the Bushaholics in this community like to label as "RINOs" This is simply doing what's right. WOW!

The other part of this is Colin Powell's letter supporting the Senators and ******* on Bush...how great is that?

...said Colin L. Powell, the former secretary of state. “The world is beginning to doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism,” Mr. Powell said in a letter to Senator John McCain of Arizona,[snip]

Mr. Powell’s repudiation of the White House’s anti-terrorism approach was both stark and highly unusual for a former cabinet member.[snip]

“Furthermore, it would put our own troops at risk,” Mr. Powell said in his letter to Mr. McCain. Critics of the Bush administration approach have argued that, if the United States is seen to be mistreating captives, Americans who are taken prisoner could be subjected to cruelty.

Mr. Powell resigned as secretary of state in November 2004 after it had become widely known that he had had deep misgivings about the Bush administration’s war to topple Saddam Hussein and was tired of repeatedly clashing with Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld on the issue.

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/14/w...&en=5b5335bd38510cbe&ei=5094&partner=homepage

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bi

That is an extremely cynical view, but I must admit, you could very well be right.

Like I said, I may be right or wrong. But IMO, that is usually how things are done in an election year. Anything to get elected.

There is a reason that politicians are grouped with Lawyers as far as ethics go.

 

[jujuman13]

Curiously we have had no comment on this from Trajan Octavian Titus, one wonders why? is he afraid of Democracy?

 

[aps]

Re: Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bi

While I am glad they did it, deep down I feel they only did it because this is an election year and Bush's policies in regards to military tribunals are unfavorable amongst the people.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not, but I simply don't trust the senate to do the right thing unless they have something to gain for it.

I honestly don't think they are doing this because it's an election year. Graham has first-hand knowledge of the kind of trials that are fair. His reason for wanting to allow detainees to see evidence against them was that the Supreme Court specifically rejected that. John McCain experienced torture first hand. This behavior from John Warner is not unique.

Personally, I am surprised that more republicans didn't vote in favor of this bill because Bush is so lawless when it comes to detainees. Objectively, his proposal was a joke and it essentially was the White House giving the Supreme Court the finger (but of course directed solely at those who voted against Bush).

 

[danarhea]

Re: Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bi

I honestly don't think they are doing this because it's an election year. Graham has first-hand knowledge of the kind of trials that are fair. His reason for wanting to allow detainees to see evidence against them was that the Supreme Court specifically rejected that. John McCain experienced torture first hand. This behavior from John Warner is not unique.

Personally, I am surprised that more republicans didn't vote in favor of this bill because Bush is so lawless when it comes to detainees. Objectively, his proposal was a joke and it essentially was the White House giving the Supreme Court the finger (but of course directed solely at those who voted against Bush).

Actually, more Republicans in the Senate could have defied Bush, except this was not on the Senate floor - Only in the Armed Services subcommittee. However, the trend is clear. The Bushneviks are now losing their grip on power.

 

[aps]

Re: Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bi

Actually, more Republicans in the Senate could have defied Bush, except this was not on the Senate floor - Only in the Armed Services subcommittee. However, the trend is clear. The Bushneviks are now losing their grip on power.

These republicans went against Bush because they are principled when it comes to this issue. Warner served in World War II. McCain in Vietnam. And Graham was a judge advocate.

 

[danarhea]

Re: Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bi

These republicans went against Bush because they are principled when it comes to this issue. Warner served in World War II. McCain in Vietnam. And Graham was a judge advocate.

Those in the Senate who served have a better handle on what could happen to our own troops if they are captured, if Bush gets his way, than those who avoided service.

 

[Binary_Digit]

Re: Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bi

I honestly don't think they are doing this because it's an election year. Graham has first-hand knowledge of the kind of trials that are fair. His reason for wanting to allow detainees to see evidence against them was that the Supreme Court specifically rejected that. John McCain experienced torture first hand. This behavior from John Warner is not unique.

I totally agree, especially about McCain. He's been at the forefront against Bush's torture policy since the beginning and he has my utmost respect for that.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Just happened. John McCain, Lindsey Graham, John Warner, and Susan Collins defied Bush, and this was after Bush personally paid a visit to the House to lobby for his plan. The Senate has voted to defend the Constitution of the United States, and the Geneva Convention. They have passed their own version of the bill, which is quite different than what Bush wanted. This bill will be lawful, Constitutional, and moral. Kudos to the Senate.

Article is here.

Good now the terrorists's lawyers can find out how we get our intelligence and run and tell his various other terrorist clients.

Regardless Bush will probably break out the veto pen for the second time.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Re: Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bi

Those in the Senate who served have a better handle on what could happen to our own troops if they are captured, if Bush gets his way, than those who avoided service.

Tell me which or our enemies has ever abided by the Geneva Conventions?

 

[Binary_Digit]

Re: Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bi

Good now the terrorists's lawyers can find out how we get our intelligence and run and tell his various other terrorist clients.

Right, because disclosing evidence actually reveals how we obtained it. :roll:

Regardless Bush will probably break out the veto pen for the second time.

Then he'll have two stupid vetoes under his belt instead of just one. Wow he's a hard charger!

Tell me which or our enemies has ever abided by the Geneva Conventions?

Yeah, and we should cut their heads off with Rambo knives because they do it too. Anything less is having sympathy for terrorists. You're a model human being.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Re: Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bi

Right, because disclosing evidence actually reveals how we obtained it. :roll:

If it was human intelligence yes it does, because the lawyers are going to demand to know the name of the source.

Then he'll have two stupid vetoes under his belt instead of just one. Wow he's a hard charger!

I don't see how not allowing terrorists to learn the names of our spies and continuing to have effective interogation techniques; such as, waterboarding would be stupid.

Yeah, and we should cut their heads off with Rambo knives because they do it too. Anything less is having sympathy for terrorists. You're a model human being.

All I'm saying is that the claim that the Geneva Conventions protects our soldiers when and if they are captured is total bullshit because none of our enemies has ever abided by them and certainly not terrorists.

 

[jfuh]

Re: Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bi

Tell me which or our enemies has ever abided by the Geneva Conventions?

The answer to your question? tu-quo quoi

This is not about who they are, this is about who we are. We Americans hold law and obeying law above all else. It is what truly distinguishes us apart from them. If you want to become them, go ahead and drive a plane and dive bomb into mecca. If you want to be American and what we stand for, abide by the Geneva conventions and human rights.

 

[Binary_Digit]

Re: Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bi

If it was human intelligence yes it does, because the lawyers are going to demand to know the name of the source.

I don't see how not allowing terrorists to learn the names of our spies and continuing to have effective interogation techniques; such as, waterboarding would be stupid.

You're shifting goal posts, your argument has evolved from providing evidence against them to revealing the sources of the evidence. I'm not aware of anything in this bill that requires the sources to be revealed.

All I'm saying is that the claim that the Geneva Conventions protects our soldiers when and if they are captured is total bullshit because none of our enemies has ever abided by them and certainly not terrorists.

I agree with that. But all I'm saying is that's not a justification to treat them how they would treat us. Or do you think we should cut their heads off with Rambo knives?

 

[aps]

Re: Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bi

All I'm saying is that the claim that the Geneva Conventions protects our soldiers when and if they are captured is total bullshit because none of our enemies has ever abided by them and certainly not terrorists.

Can you provide examples of when the Geneva Conventions were not abided by with our soldiers? Iraq and Afghanistan cannot be used as examples because the United States clearly has not abided by the Geneva Conventions itself.

 

[ProudAmerican]

Re: Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bi

Can you provide examples of when the Geneva Conventions were not abided by with our soldiers? Iraq and Afghanistan cannot be used as examples because the United States clearly has not abided by the Geneva Conventions itself.

ahhh, it all makes sense now.

our enemies dont abide by it, but we must.

we dont abide by it, so our enemies dont have to.

yep. its all so much more clear to me now.

 

[aps]

Re: Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bi

ahhh, it all makes sense now.

our enemies dont abide by it, but we must.

we dont abide by it, so our enemies dont have to.

yep. its all so much more clear to me now.

In this case, we didn't abide by them BEFORE they didn't abide by them. So when does it stop?

 

[ProudAmerican]

Re: Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bi

In this case, we didn't abide by them BEFORE they didn't abide by them. So when does it stop?

really?

the 3,000 dead people from NYC might disagree with you.

and dont start on how Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11. you have no idea at all if those people at guitmo are part of the very same group that commited 9-11.

the bottom line is you are a hypocrite. you expect America to abide by rules that you do not expect the rest of the world to abide by.

 

[aps]

Re: Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bi

really?

the 3,000 dead people from NYC might disagree with you.

and dont start on how Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH 9-11!

you have no idea at all if those people at guitmo are part of the very same group that commited 9-11.

And I don't care.

the bottom line is you are a hypocrite. you expect America to abide by rules that you do not expect the rest of the world to abide by.

OMG, you called me a hypocrite! I'm devastated!


NOT.

 

[26 X World Champs]

Re: Senate Armed Services Committee defies Bush; Passes its own terrorism tribunal bi

Regardless Bush will probably break out the veto pen for the second time.

I say "Go For It!" It would be great fodder pre-election and Bush still would not be able to torture people or try them his way because the Supreme Court has already ruled it illegal.

Haven't you noticed the pro-torture anti-civil rights Republicans are the ones who have not served in the military and the ones championing the no-torture pro-civil rights side are ex-Military?

Bush is turning into a despot with his pro-torture idealogy...and in the end being a war monger who tortures his enemy and denies them the right to a fair trial will be his historic legacy.