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Sen. Reid on the Retirement of Justice O’Connor

Fantasea said:
This bunch turned out to be the antithesis of their former selves and shocked the Republicans beyond belief.
I’m trying to spoon feed some logic to ShamMol. Thanks for telling us how the story ends Fantasea!

Fantasea has a very good point. Do you still contend that the political views of the appointee are unequivocally those of the appointer? Should we proceed down the path where we compare the political positions of the appointee to the appointer?

I’ll say it again ShamMol, your argument is based upon an assumption that is total garbage.

If I understand you correctly, you, like Ried, don’t want Justices that strictly enforce the constitution; you want Justices that consider the consequences to the populace like politicians do.

If I’m wrong, I trust you’ll set me straight.
 
GPS_Flex said:
Are you referring to Scalia, Rehnquist or Thomas when you say he “isn’t a responsible jurist”?
Thomas and Scalia. Rehnquist is factually sound even if I don't agree with the legal arguments. They are activist judges, just like Breyer and Ginsburg. But luckily, the activism balances out.
 
ShamMol said:
Thomas and Scalia. Rehnquist is factually sound even if I don't agree with the legal arguments. They are activist judges, just like Breyer and Ginsburg. But luckily, the activism balances out.
So do you consider a strict interpretation of the constitution activism or not?
 
cnredd said:
What does Ted Kennedy & Baywatch have in common?
They both pretend to save people from drowning.
"Hey Teddy, What if I'm pregnant?" "Don't worry Mary-Joe, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it."
 
GPS_Flex said:
So do you consider a strict interpretation of the constitution activism or not
If you had been reading my posts up until now, you might realize that I believe something very inherently. There is no black and white answer. The answer to your question is that I believe that in some cases it can be used for activist purposes where case law is inherently against it and in other cases no-it all depends.

GPS_Flex said:
That’s a pretty big assumption ShamMol.

Your assumption doesn’t reflect the obvious divergence of the court from the beliefs of conservatives and it certainly doesn’t reflect the differences in opinions between the appointed Justices and their appointees except for the Democrats’ appointees.

If you would kindly explain why the voting records of Stevens, Kennedy, Souter and O’Conner should be ignored and they should be considered conservatives or moderates solely based upon who appointed them, we might come to an agreement.
First, let me say I had a beautiful response to this, and then my blipping computer froze and I lost everything, so let me try and reconstruct it.

First off, I don't understand the entire second paragraph, would you please explain it in...more simple terms so that I as a simpleton can understand?

The assumption is a big one, but usually correct one. You consider O'Connor and Kennedy liberal? That is a big assumption there. They aren't. At worst (for you) they are moderate and at best they are conservative, and most likely they are moderately conservative. Let's look at them, shall we?

O'Connor is reviled by the right for her decisions on abortion. But in fact, they show a very conservative mindset in the fact she wants to restrict abortion by making it harder to get them. She basically says that the legal principle behind it is sound (and frankly it is) but that there can and should be limitations on it that don't cause a woman undue burden. She differed from the conservatives (3) on two main cases regarding state sovereignity and even then, it wasn't much different in the narrow ruling she handed down. She voted with them on issues of limitations of government power. She even wants to limit affirmative action. The majority (almost vast, but I wont go that far just in case you want to prove me wrong) of the time, she votes with the conservatives-she must be liberal according to you.

The main problem that people on the right have with her is that her rulings are too...narrow, too based on fact and the common law. They consider this activist? This is what a jurist is supposed to be. Here is a nice quote explaining her judicial philosophy I found. "Legal scholars have had difficulty categorizing O'Connor's jurisprudence. Her opinions are conservative and attentive to detail, but also open-minded; they reflect no profound ideology and rarely contain any sweeping rhetoric. Critics say that her opinions have no passion, no lofty vision, and lack a personal tone. O'Connor has been compared to Justices Powell and John Marshall Harlan, "whose careers were distinguished by a devotion to pragmatic resolution of the issues before them." She is described as a justice "who looks to resolve each case and no more, one with no overarching philosophy that might preordain a result." (Source

Kennedy is reviled for an opposite reason. Here is an interesting article from the new york times I suggest you read about him. It is quite interesting and I think it may help spread some information about actually how conservative he is but how he gets the...rap for being a liberal activist (which enfuriates me because he is no liberal and that offends me people would think him liberal). It also shows the opposition that is against him that sess him as essentially evil. People even think he would support gay marriage, even after his writing that he would not and thinks that it is not right. He is the more activist of the two for sure, but he bases all cases strictly on fact and common law-the correct form for justices. Article-In fight for supreme court, right hopes to...

If you can't tell by now, I am a firm believer in the fact that strict constructionism and loose interpretation are both wrong. I say it doesn't matter. What does matter is basing each decision not on rhetoric or bashing of colleagues (had to throw that in there because I hate that Scalia does that-brings shame to the court), but turning on specific facts in a case. You don't institute your own views as a justice, you institute the correct legal views. Do you get where I am coming from?
 
SahmMol said:
Do you get where I am coming from?
I think I do. From what I’ve ascertained thus far I would describe your position as follows:

1. You think the Constitution is too complex for even a high school graduate to read and understand.
2. You think Common Law should trump any further attempts at interpreting said Constitution in the United States Supreme Court.
3. You think Supreme Court Justices should be “open minded” to anything other than actually ruling on what the Constitution really says.
4. You don’t agree with the United States Constitution and you can’t get the amendments required to change it so you lobby the courts to become the third political branch of government in the USA.
5. You don’t understand that the constitution doesn’t give any Citizen any rights.
6. You don’t understand that the Constitution is a very slight conveyance of rights from the Citizens and States to the Federal Government and that the Federal Government has no rights or powers over the States or the Citizen unless they are expressly surrendered in said Constitution.
7. You think the courts aren’t being political enough and you consider a strict interpritation of the Constitution to be activism because it is counter to your political opinions. As a result, you resort to No. 4 in this list.
8. You don’t consider the Constitution of the United States to be the ultimate law of the land.


Where am I wrong ShamMol?
 
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^A great many things.

"If you can't tell by now, I am a firm believer in the fact that strict constructionism and loose interpretation are both wrong. I say it doesn't matter. What does matter is basing each decision not on rhetoric or bashing of colleagues (had to throw that in there because I hate that Scalia does that-brings shame to the court), but turning on specific facts in a case. You don't institute your own views as a justice, you institute the correct legal views."

The constitution is complex and requires a highly trained mind to understand it. I think that normally (aka in non-extreme cases) common law should be used. And even when interpretting, it has to be used even to reaffirm a theory. I wish that the courts weren't political, but unfortunately, they are because taht is what today's climate has made it. I like the Bill O' Rights, don't you? Actually, that which is specifically not said in the constitution has been interpretted differently than that by the court. I think that a strict interpretation of the constitution and a loose interpretation are both wrong-get that. You are right, I don't consider the Constitution to be the ultimate law of the land-that is our own minds and souls telling us what is right and wrong (hey go figure, I used philosophy to prove a point).
 
ShamMol said:
The constitution is complex and requires a highly trained mind to understand it.
The Constitution can be read and understood by anyone with a reasonable command of the English language. Perhaps you find the Constitution so complex because you haven’t bothered to sit down and read it without stare decisis. Perhaps you think Constitutional Law is something that can’t be approached independently and the principle of stare decisis is so intertwined in these disciplines that they cannot be separated from the text of the Constitution itself.
I’m not referring to vertical stare decisis so don’t convelute things with that argument.


ShamMol said:
I think that normally (aka in non-extreme cases) common law should be used.
Why? Stare decisis violates the principle that only the legislature may make law don’t you think?

ShamMol said:
What does matter is basing each decision not on rhetoric or bashing of colleagues (had to throw that in there because I hate that Scalia does that-brings shame to the court), but turning on specific facts in a case.
Do you hate that Scalia does this due to the propensity of the court to rely on Stare decisis rather than interpret the Constitution? Would you be so kind as to point to where the Contitution ever uses the word “presidence”?


ShamMol said:
And even when interpretting, it has to be used even to reaffirm a theory.
I disagree. The only theory that’s Constitutional is what’s written in the Constitution. I agree that this applies to vertical stare decisis but not Horizontal stare decisis.


ShamMol said:
I wish that the courts weren't political, but unfortunately, they are because taht is what today's climate has made it.
If you truly wished the courts weren’t political, you would condemn rather than advocate this practice. The courts are political because of the types of arguments you are trying to make.


ShamMol said:
I like the Bill O' Rights, don't you?
Of course; I don’t consider any Amendment to be anything but a part of the Constitution.


ShamMol said:
Actually, that which is specifically not said in the constitution has been interpretted differently than that by the court.
I’m not sure what you are trying to say here so I’ll ask for clarification.


ShamMol said:
I think that a strict interpretation of the constitution and a loose interpretation are both wrong-get that.
I think you said that already.


ShamMol said:
You are right, I don't consider the Constitution to be the ultimate law of the land-that is our own minds and souls telling us what is right and wrong (hey go figure, I used philosophy to prove a point).
I thank you for your time ShamMoul.
 
I don't consider the Constitution to be the ultimate law of the land-that is our own minds and souls telling us what is right and wrong (hey go figure, I used philosophy to prove a point).
So if my mind and soul tells me it is ok to rape and murder children you’d be ok with that?
 
GPS_Flex said:
The Constitution can be read and understood by anyone with a reasonable command of the English language. Perhaps you find the Constitution so complex because you haven’t bothered to sit down and read it without stare decisis. Perhaps you think Constitutional Law is something that can’t be approached independently and the principle of stare decisis is so intertwined in these disciplines that they cannot be separated from the text of the Constitution itself.
I’m not referring to vertical stare decisis so don’t convelute things with that argument.
Fair argument, but the people who I work with would never agree, and I think I will side with people who have taken a year of constitutional law in law school... I actually have a little pocket Constitution though that I take out every once and a while.
Why? Stare decisis violates the principle that only the legislature may make law don’t you think?
They don't make law. They tell people how to use it so that it is used constitutionally or just flat out rule it unconstitutional.
Do you hate that Scalia does this due to the propensity of the court to rely on Stare decisis rather than interpret the Constitution? Would you be so kind as to point to where the Contitution ever uses the word “presidence”?
Nope, for his reliance on the "founders intent" which I have always thought of as a bullshit theory. Argue law and history, not something he has no idea about. He has argued it for religion so many times, when so many of the founders were nto religious at all. It has its place every once and a while, but not every blipping time.
I disagree. The only theory that’s Constitutional is what’s written in the Constitution. I agree that this applies to vertical stare decisis but not Horizontal stare decisis.
Just in case someone reading doesn't know what a stare decision is..."to stand by that which is decided." I think that all the case law is applicable to the new cases, but that doesn't make it necessarily the only decision that can be reached. O'Connor was famous for making her decision turning on one fact that made it different.
If you truly wished the courts weren’t political, you would condemn rather than advocate this practice. The courts are political because of the types of arguments you are trying to make.
So they are political because I say that is the unfortunate fact that they are? Not really, they are political since FDR tried packing the court (and even before that), they are political because politics and politicians made it so. It is not sensible to just hope against hope and not argue for the type (not political) of justice you want-strict, loose, pragmatic.
Of course; I don’t consider any Amendment to be anything but a part of the Constitution.
Alright, that is sensible.
I’m not sure what you are trying to say here so I’ll ask for clarification.
It was in response to number 6 of your list. Basically, what I meant was that there was much that was not in the constitution or the bill of rights which has been interpreted by Federal courts.
So if my mind and soul tells me it is ok to rape and murder children you’d be ok with that?
No, you misunderstand. Legally it is the law of the land, but to be truely the law of the land, it must be combined with what actually happens in every day life. In that way, I think of it as a living document, always changing to adapt to the society, not the society to it. But, on that same token, it cannot change to much to adapt to society otherwise it will not be the original document. That is the delicate balance that has to be woven, combining the morals of the day with teh document itself.
 
ShamMol said:
....I don't consider the Constitution to be the ultimate law of the land-that is our own minds and souls telling us what is right and wrong.....
To each his own. Sounds like a perfect recipe for chaos.
 
Fantasea said:
To each his own. Sounds like a perfect recipe for chaos.
Your mind is chaos...sorry, had to be said.

Anyway, you misunderstnad and I will post it again. "Legally it is the law of the land, but to be truely the law of the land, it must be combined with what actually happens in every day life. In that way, I think of it as a living document, always changing to adapt to the society, not the society to it. But, on that same token, it cannot change to much to adapt to society otherwise it will not be the original document. That is the delicate balance that has to be woven, combining the morals of the day with teh document itself."
 
ShamMol said:
...................That is the delicate balance that has to be woven, combining the morals of the day with teh document itself.
When popular morals can swing to and fro as a pendulum, as they do, I believe it is only by strictly interpreting the Constitution that constancy and orderly progression can be maintained.
 
Fantasea said:
When popular morals can swing to and fro as a pendulum, as they do, I believe it is only by strictly interpreting the Constitution that constancy and orderly progression can be maintained.
You think justices just change it on a whim? That is why I said it was a delicate balance. They can't change too much with the times otherwise the document is worthless, but by that same token they have to change otherwise the document will just represent the past and not the future and present.

But, I digress...I am shocked you even believe in progression, I mean with your views expressed on this forum. Strict interpretation would theoretically never allow progression because they would have to soley rely on what the document meant at that time, not now. And by that same token loose interpretation is wrong as well because it may go too much with the current moral state. As I said-a delicate balance that brilliant people weave.
 
ShamMol said:
You think justices just change it on a whim? That is why I said it was a delicate balance. They can't change too much with the times otherwise the document is worthless, but by that same token they have to change otherwise the document will just represent the past and not the future and present.

But, I digress...I am shocked you even believe in progression, I mean with your views expressed on this forum. Strict interpretation would theoretically never allow progression because they would have to soley rely on what the document meant at that time, not now. And by that same token loose interpretation is wrong as well because it may go too much with the current moral state. As I said-a delicate balance that brilliant people weave.
I'm quite content with my views, the principle one of which is that the nature of something which is, intrinsically, either right or wrong, cannot be reversed by popular request or a show of hands.

I believe that the charge of the courts is to maintain resistance to the caprice, whim and whimsey of the "in crowd" of an era. It's charge is not to find ways around limitations and prohibitions legislated by Congress.

If the populace is not satisfied with the work of Congress, vote in new members with a mandate for legislated change.
 
What you also fail to realize is this "vote new members in" mentality is bullcrap in the House where more than 90% of the house has safe seats thanks to gerrymandering. It is effectively impossible to make change in the House. In the Senate it is different, and you have a point there, but you should note that point.

A jurists responsibility is to examine the case in front of them. They look at the facts, they look at the case law, and then they look at the constitution and amms. After that they make a decision, and then set out to write the opinion. In this opinion, they create a stance, find case law to support it and then write it up. Now, some justices take it upon themselves to consider public sentiment as a sort of case law to help justify their opinion, and none of the jurists on the Supreme Court are immune from it, from Scalia, to O'Connor, to Breyer. They use all that is before them, that can even include international law to help justify their opinion, not make it. That is the important distinction.

The court is very pragmatic in the changes it instills, and we would hope it to be because they are very wise (usually) and very legally versed. They know what to do and will not do it, as you said, on a whim. They will be pragmatic and very thoughtful in response to each and every case, and if they consider public sentiment to be a part of it, they will include it. That simple. Do you cry foul when Scalia cites the public and the founders? I would tend to think not, but for another view...Fant?
 
ShamMol said:
What you also fail to realize is this "vote new members in" mentality is bullcrap in the House where more than 90% of the house has safe seats thanks to gerrymandering. It is effectively impossible to make change in the House. In the Senate it is different, and you have a point there, but you should note that point.
I agree. With a two year term, a Representative can never stop raising funds and campaigning. With a six year term, Senators have a bit more breathing room. In any event, both have three primary considerations. Getting re-elected, pork, and pleasing their benefactors. Everything else comes after that.

The solution, as I see it, is term limits. Perhaps four or five terms for Representatives and two terms for Senators. Fresh blood, fresh ideas, less time to become 'pocketed', as it were.
A jurists responsibility is to examine the case in front of them. They look at the facts, they look at the case law, and then they look at the constitution and amms. After that they make a decision, and then set out to write the opinion. In this opinion, they create a stance, find case law to support it and then write it up. Now, some justices take it upon themselves to consider public sentiment as a sort of case law to help justify their opinion, and none of the jurists on the Supreme Court are immune from it, from Scalia, to O'Connor, to Breyer. They use all that is before them, that can even include international law to help justify their opinion, not make it. That is the important distinction.
Public opinion has no place in the decision making of a USCC Justice. Nor should the laws of any foreign country.
The court is very pragmatic in the changes it instills, and we would hope it to be because they are very wise (usually) and very legally versed. They know what to do and will not do it, as you said, on a whim. They will be pragmatic and very thoughtful in response to each and every case, and if they consider public sentiment to be a part of it, they will include it. That simple. Do you cry foul when Scalia cites the public and the founders? I would tend to think not, but for another view...Fant?
I won't offer an opinion to the contrary. Let it suffice that even learned folks on opposite sides of a question cross over when they see a question that they believe was wrongly decided.

I won't give you a link because the discussion would then shift to the merits of the source instead of the material being presented.

I was particularly surprised to read the comments attributed to Ruth Ginsberg and Alan Dershowitz.

The Senate hearing referred to was held last month with little or no publicity, either before or after.

Senator Brownback Sets Sights on Roe
by Pete Winn, associate editor

Kansas senator to hold hearings on whether the Supreme Court's infamous 1973 abortion ruling may have been bad law after all.
U.S. Sen. Sam Brownback believes a hearing he's holding Thursday on Capitol Hill could eventually lead to the overturning of the Supreme Court's infamous Roe v. Wade decision.


Brownback, R-Kan., will convene the Senate Judiciary Committee's Constitution, Civil Rights and Property Rights subcommittee to examine the consequences of Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton, the other 1970s-era Supreme Court decision that helped give America abortion on demand.


"A number of legal scholars both from the left and the right believe that Roe v. Wade is badly decided law, so we're going to start going at the core issue of Roe and this decision," Brownback told CitizenLink. "I believe you'll see Roe v. Wade overturned."


Norma McCorvey (the "Jane Roe" of Roe v. Wade) and Sandra Cano ("Jane Doe" of Doe v. Bolton) are expected to be witnesses at the hearing. Though they were used three decades ago by pro-abortion attorneys to advance the leftist agenda, both women have become pro-life—and denounced the very decisions now identified by their pseudonyms.


Also expected to testify: Dr. Ken Edelin, associate dean of the Boston University School of Medicine; Teresa Collett, professor of law at the University of St. Thomas Law School in Minneapolis; M. Edward Whelan, president of the Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington, D.C.; R. Alta Charo, professor of law and bioethics and associate dean for research and faculty development at the University of Wisconsin Law School in Madison, Wis.; and Karen O'Connor, professor of government at American University, Washington, D.C.


Bruce Hausknecht, judicial analyst for Focus on the Family Action, said it's about time such a hearing was scheduled.
"It's a dirty little secret of the legal profession that (Justice) Harry Blackmun's opinion in Roe v. Wade was not very rich in constitutional underpinnings," Hausknecht explained. "It looked for a result and struggled to obtain that any way it could."


The real question, though, is can Roe v. Wade really be overturned?
"All an overturning of Roe v. Wade would do," Hausknecht said, "is put the whole issue back in the 50 state legislatures—where it belongs, anyway. That's something that most conservatives are comfortable with.


"Ultimately, I want to see abortion gone from all 50 states, but it's important to eliminate this as a federal 'constitutional right'—which has been the effect of Roe v. Wade."


It's no surprise that conservative jurists tend to think Roe is bad law. Indeed, three of the high court's sitting justices—Chief Justice Rehnquist, Justice Antonin Scalia and Justice Clarence Thomas—have all said they think Roe v. Wade was wrongly decided.


Slightly more surprising, according to Hausknecht, is the fact that liberal Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz also think Roe was bad law.


In a March 2005 speech at the University of Kansas, Ginsburg, a former American Civil Liberties Union attorney, said Roe was decided in a way which forbids any regulation or restriction of abortion—something which "seemed to me not the way courts generally work."


As for Dershowitz, in his book, "Supreme Injustice," the famous pro-abortion liberal scion compared Roe v. Wade to the Bush v. Gore decision that decided the outcome of the 2000 presidential election—blasting both rulings as instances where politics became wrongly inserted into the courts.
 
Fantasea said:
ShamMol said:
I agree. With a two year term, a Representative can never stop raising funds and campaigning. With a six year term, Senators have a bit more breathing room. In any event, both have three primary considerations. Getting re-elected, pork, and pleasing their benefactors. Everything else comes after that.

The solution, as I see it, is term limits. Perhaps four or five terms for Representatives and two terms for Senators. Fresh blood, fresh ideas, less time to become 'pocketed', as it were.
Honestly, the idea of term limits is one that has been brought up before and will never happen for both political and practical reasons. You have Senators who have been there forever, know the system and know how to get things done in Washington-that is invaluable to their home state as well as the country. That is the practical. The political side is that Senators will never give up that right becaue they like their jobs. 'Nuff said. Agreed on the job of politicians as well, though I truly believe that you have to add serve others to the list for some politicians.
Public opinion has no place in the decision making of a USCC Justice. Nor should the laws of any foreign country.
See, I see it as merely a reinforcment of the decision. Basically, this is how it happens. A justice makes a decision on what is right in the case and then sets out to make sure that they are right using whatever is at their disposal...even the internet *sic*.
I won't offer an opinion to the contrary. Let it suffice that even learned folks on opposite sides of a question cross over when they see a question that they believe was wrongly decided.
Agreed...let's see where you are going with this.
I was particularly surprised to read the comments attributed to Ruth Ginsberg and Alan Dershowitz.

The Senate hearing referred to was held last month with little or no publicity, either before or after.

Senator Brownback Sets Sights on Roe
by Pete Winn, associate editor

Kansas senator to hold hearings on whether the Supreme Court's infamous 1973 abortion ruling may have been bad law after all.
Ginsburg is very sound legally, there is no doubt about it. But I actually read through the decision and frankly believe that is was correctly decided. I think that the right to be secure in a person is an inherent right. Now, that being said...the court made a mistake in how it decided-Not the final outcome, but how. there were other ways to garuntee that right and it wasn't just to give a myriad of amms. that supported it...1st, 5th, 9th, and 15th I believe. Anyway, it should be interesting with this new court to see what happens, but I don't see the decision changing, maybe just being reinterpreted.
 
ShamMol said:
Ginsburg is very sound legally, there is no doubt about it. But I actually read through the decision and frankly believe that is was correctly decided. I think that the right to be secure in a person is an inherent right. Now, that being said...the court made a mistake in how it decided-Not the final outcome, but how. there were other ways to garuntee that right and it wasn't just to give a myriad of amms. that supported it...1st, 5th, 9th, and 15th I believe. Anyway, it should be interesting with this new court to see what happens, but I don't see the decision changing, maybe just being reinterpreted.
I think that one of these days, a politician with the right "stuff" is going to read Section IX B of Roe v. Wade and realize that Mr. Justice Blackmun purposefully left the door open for re-visiting the decision.

To refresh the memory:

"We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to the answer."

What was Mr. justice Blackmun saying? Simply this. In 1973, no one has come forward to tell us, with a sufficient degree of scientific certainty, that human life begins at conception. Therefore, today, ignoring any religious explanation and proceeding solely on a secular basis, it's anyone's guess, and that's not a foundation for a legal decision.

Relying on the apparent sincerity of the proponents of abortion who said they merely sought a safe alternative to back alley butchers in cases of rape and incest, perhaps he believed that the number of abortions would really be as few as they projected and considered that it wasn't really a big deal.

That politician I mentioned earlier, the one with the "right stuff", realizing that we are no longer in the 1973 "dark ages" of obstetrics, pediatrics, genetics, and other sciences related to the first nine months of human existence, will have a brainstorm.

It will occur to him that, today, in the twenty-first century, there are scientists and doctors who, through their research, are able to show that human life, indeed, begins at the point when the sperm and the egg unite. He will recall having seen ultra-sound scans of, perhaps his own children or grandchildren, in which they were frolicking right there in real-time full color motion right there inside mom's womb. They sure looked like real live human babies to him.

He will thank Mr. Justice Blackmun for leaving that door open, he will march right in, cast aside all of the religious mumbo-jumbo which has obscured the question, and on the basis of good old secular science and biology, will show that the time has come to remove any speculation.

At that point, Roe v. Wade will go the way of the Dred Scott and Plessy v. Ferguson decisions, which were initially thought to be correct, but which, with the passage of time, proved to be wrong. In this case, the court cannot sustain giving one human the power of life or death over another. That will render the "privacy" arguments unsupportable.

While a reversal of Roe v. Wade would simply turn the matter back to the states, the reason for it's reversal would serve as the basis for nullifying legalized abortion legislation in all fifty states.

In cases of extreme risk, hospitals will still try to save both mother and child, however, if only one can survive, the odds are that it will be the mother.
 
And now you have turned this into a debate about when life begins, which really isn't important in the case at all. What is important is whether the mother has the right to be secure in her own body, to have privacy-which really is the only legal issue. You'll want to say that it is murder, but it has nothing to do with this case at all. Prove to me that it is in Roe and we will talk, but I can garuntee you it isn't. The only way for the court to come to a conclusion on that is when some sheriff in Missouri or Tennessee or someplace in the Bible Beltway arrests a woman who got an abortion for murder, or even the doctor. That is when the court will/could examine the issue-you talk of scope and activism in judges...how activist would it be to make a legal finding, which Blackman did not, on something which isnt' even in the case.

"At this point in the development of man's knowledge"...He was very wise in saying this, in making when life began not an issue for the court but an issue for philosophers and the human population to figure out for themselves. It is not anyone's place to dictate knowledge, only to present factual evidence and hope that it takes....hold in a person's mind.

Oh, and I would be interested to know what you thought of the rest of my post before what you quoted becasue it directly responded to waht you had said. Cheers.
 
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ShamMol said:
And now you have turned this into a debate about when life begins, which really isn't important in the case at all.
On the contrary. It is precisely the point. It is the only point upon which the decision can pivot. If it is determined that human life begins at conception, then legalized abortion gives one human being the power of life or death over another human being. Roe v. Wade could not withstand that.
What is important is whether the mother has the right to be secure in her own body, to have privacy-which really is the only legal issue.
Life or death of a human being would trump any issues of privacy.
You'll want to say that it is murder, but it has nothing to do with this case at all.
You drag a red herring across the trail when you put the word "murder' in my mouth. You know full well that I have never used that word in connection with any abortion debate. In fact, I have cited on several occasions that prior to legalized abortion, the offense was "performing an illegal abortion", and it was the doctor who was indicted. The mother was never charged with anything.
Prove to me that it is in Roe and we will talk, but I can garuntee you it isn't. The only way for the court to come to a conclusion on that is when some sheriff in Missouri or Tennessee or someplace in the Bible Beltway arrests a woman who got an abortion for murder, or even the doctor. That is when the court will/could examine the issue-you talk of scope and activism in judges...how activist would it be to make a legal finding, which Blackman did not, on something which isnt' even in the case.
Funny you should mention Missouri.

Missouri Revised Statutes
Chapter 1
Laws in Force and Construction of Statutes
Section 1.205

August 28, 2004

Life begins at conception--unborn child, defined--failure to provide prenatal care, no cause of action for.
1.205. 1. The general assembly of this state finds that:

(1) The life of each human being begins at conception;

(2) Unborn children have protectable interests in life, health, and well-being;

(3) The natural parents of unborn children have protectable interests in the life, health, and well-being of their unborn child.

2. Effective January 1, 1988, the laws of this state shall be interpreted and construed to acknowledge on behalf of the unborn child at every stage of development, all the rights, privileges, and immunities available to other persons, citizens, and residents of this state, subject only to the Constitution of the United States, and decisional interpretations thereof by the United States Supreme Court and specific provisions to the contrary in the statutes and constitution of this state.

3. As used in this section, the term "unborn children" or "unborn child" shall include all unborn child or children or the offspring of human beings from the moment of conception until birth at every stage of biological development.

4. Nothing in this section shall be interpreted as creating a cause of action against a woman for indirectly harming her unborn child by failing to properly care for herself or by failing to follow any particular program of prenatal care.


While, at this point, they are still stuck with an inability to circumvent Roe v. Wade, there is no doubt that the legislators in Missouri are eager to see it overturned, wouldn't you say?
"At this point in the development of man's knowledge"...He was very wise in saying this, in making when life began not an issue for the court but an issue for philosophers and the human population to figure out for themselves. It is not anyone's place to dictate knowledge, only to present factual evidence and hope that it takes....hold in a person's mind.
Philosophers do not decide questions of science. Scientists do. In this instance, they have. All that is needed is someone in authority with sufficient courage to raise the issue so that the light of truth may shine upon it.
Oh, and I would be interested to know what you thought of the rest of my post before what you quoted becasue it directly responded to waht you had said. Cheers.
I believe that all the privacy citations you list cannot withstand a truthful answer to the question begging to be answered. The one which Mr. Justice Blackmun 'ducked' and passed to a future court.

Has the 'future' arrived?
 
In your opinion the future has arrived. In mine, it has not. Your definition of life is correct and great for you, but I also see it in a more gray shade. I think that being is what is important, not life. But again, I don't think that is important to this debate as Roe v. Wade made no decision on fact of when life/being begins. When a case comes before the court that adresses that issue, we'll talk Fant.
While, at this point, they are still stuck with an inability to circumvent Roe v. Wade, there is no doubt that the legislators in Missouri are eager to see it overturned, wouldn't you say?
I would tend to agree that they believe life begins at conception which is not, in my opinion, an opinion a state should have. It is up to the citizens to make their own choices about when they believe life begins, not the courts...wow, did I just make a conservative agrum...nevermind.
All that is needed is someone in authority with sufficient courage to raise the issue so that the light of truth may shine upon it.
Right, someone to break a statute, right? You need a profile in courage to break an unjust law? Forgive me, but I don't see it that way, I see it as idiocy.

Agreed. Murder would indeed trump privacy, and my point was that in the case of Roe, murder or even the case of when life begins (never decided) was not brought up.

Sorry for putting murder in your mouth, but my point stands insofar that I think that you want to make this not a legal issue but instead an issue of morality and philosophy, or what you see as merely science. It isn't just black and white, and I guess that is where we differ. I see everything as multi-facited and hard to understand and requiring information to make an informed decision over a long period of time. It isn't so concrete.

And what do you say to this. You just ducked it and instead posted about Missouri, which was interesting and all, but I still am interested in your response. "Prove to me that it is in Roe and we will talk, but I can garuntee you it isn't. The only way for the court to come to a conclusion on that is when some sheriff in Missouri or Tennessee or someplace in the Bible Beltway arrests a woman who got an abortion for murder, or even the doctor. That is when the court will/could examine the issue-you talk of scope and activism in judges...how activist would it be to make a legal finding, which Blackman did not, on something which isnt' even in the case. "
 
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ShamMol said:
In your opinion the future has arrived. In mine, it has not. Your definition of life is correct and great for you, but I also see it in a more gray shade. I think that being is what is important, not life. But again, I don't think that is important to this debate as Roe v. Wade made no decision on fact of when life/being begins. When a case comes before the court that adresses that issue, we'll talk Fant.
I understand that you do not agree. However, on the day that the Supreme Court Justices hear arguments which have never before been made before it, scientifically sound conclusions that the life of a human being commences at the moment of conception, all references to privacy will be swept aside.
Quote:
Previously posted by Fantasea
While, at this point, they are still stuck with an inability to circumvent Roe v. Wade, there is no doubt that the legislators in Missouri are eager to see it overturned, wouldn't you say?
I would tend to agree that they believe life begins at conception which is not, in my opinion, an opinion a state should have. It is up to the citizens to make their own choices about when they believe life begins, not the courts...wow, did I just make a conservative agrum...nevermind.
The determination will not be left up to the individual. Once the scientifically sound conclusion is accepted, that will become the law of the land.
Quote:
Previously posted by Fantasea
All that is needed is someone in authority with sufficient courage to raise the issue so that the light of truth may shine upon it.
Right, someone to break a statute, right? You need a profile in courage to break an unjust law? Forgive me, but I don't see it that way, I see it as idiocy.
I believe that out there lurks a person with a Martin Luther King type of personality, mentality, and determination, although, perhaps, not so placid a disposition.
Agreed. Murder would indeed trump privacy, and my point was that in the case of Roe, murder or even the case of when life begins (never decided) was not brought up.
Mr. Justice Blackmun did, indeed, acknowledge the subject and immediately followed with his "need not speculate" clause. With those words he left the door open for re-visiting the decision.
Sorry for putting murder in your mouth, but my point stands insofar that I think that you want to make this not a legal issue but instead an issue of morality and philosophy, or what you see as merely science. It isn't just black and white, and I guess that is where we differ. I see everything as multi-facited and hard to understand and requiring information to make an informed decision over a long period of time. It isn't so concrete.
You apologize for one red herring and immediately follow it with another. You know full well that I have never argued the question on morality or philosophy. I see it as merely a question of secular biology. No morals, no philosophy, no religion.
And what do you say to this. You just ducked it and instead posted about Missouri, which was interesting and all, but I still am interested in your response. "Prove to me that it is in Roe and we will talk, but I can garuntee you it isn't. The only way for the court to come to a conclusion on that is when some sheriff in Missouri or Tennessee or someplace in the Bible Beltway arrests a woman who got an abortion for murder, or even the doctor. That is when the court will/could examine the issue-you talk of scope and activism in judges...how activist would it be to make a legal finding, which Blackman did not, on something which isnt' even in the case.
Sorry, I must have missed that in my haste to show you what the folks in the "Show Me" state are up to.

To answer you.

One day, in a lower court, a law suit will commence on some facet of abortion. The list of those giving testimony will include scientists, geneticists, obstetricians, and other experts who will furnish data concluding that human life is present from the moment of conception. Previously, this had not been done.

Given the work in the field of in-vitro fertilization, DNA research, pre-natal surgery, the state of the art ultra-sound scanning equipment, and other technological advances not even dreamed of in 1973, it becomes easier each day to make the secular case that abortion kills a living human being.

It is unlikely that there will be conflicting testimony. All opposing arguments will center on privacy.

This evidence will wend its way through the system and ultimately lay before the nine justices, and will, therefore have to be considered.

By the way, It must have really frosted Tom Daschle's agates when his home state did this. Note particularly the portion of section 2 which I have bolded. That's the kind of stuff the Supreme Court will have to consider -- reinforced validity of a scientific fact.

excerpt

South Dakota Abortion Act

Mar 17 2004
ENTITLED, An Act to establish certain legislative findings, to reinstate the prohibition against certain acts causing the termination of an unborn human life and to prescribe a penalty therefor.
BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF SOUTH DAKOTA:

Section 1. The Legislature finds that the State of South Dakota has a compelling and paramount interest in the preservation and protection of all human life and finds that the guarantee of due process of law under the South Dakota Bill of Rights applies equally to born and unborn human beings.

Section 2. The Legislature finds that the life of a human being begins when the ovum is fertilized by male sperm. The Legislature finds that the explosion of knowledge derived from new recombinant DNA technologies over the past twenty-five years has reinforced the validity of the finding of this scientific fact.
Section 3. The Legislature finds that, based upon the evidence derived from thirty years of legalized abortions in this country, the interests of pregnant mothers protected under the South Dakota Bill of Rights have been adversely affected as abortions terminate the constitutionally protected fundamental interest of the pregnant mother in her relationship with her child and abortions are performed without a truly informed or voluntary consent or knowing waiver of the woman's rights and interests. The Legislature finds that the state has a duty to protect the pregnant mother's fundamental interest in her relationship with her unborn child.

Section 4. The Legislature finds that abortion procedures impose significant risks to the health and life of the pregnant mother, including subjecting women to significant risk of severe depression, suicidal ideation, suicide, attempted suicide, post traumatic stress disorders, adverse impact in the lives of women, physical injury, and a greater risk of death than risks associated with carrying the unborn child to full term and childbirth.

Section 5. The Legislature finds that a pregnant mother, together with the unborn human child, each possess a natural and inalienable right to life under the South Dakota Bill of Rights.
 
Fantasea said:
I understand that you do not agree. However, on the day that the Supreme Court Justices hear arguments which have never before been made before it, scientifically sound conclusions that the life of a human being commences at the moment of conception, all references to privacy will be swept aside.
I beg to differ as THAT IS WHAT THE CASE IS ABOUT. Literally, justices can reject that reasoning in their opinions after the hearings, but it will be discussed and put into I would think at least 8 of the justices opinions. The court doesn't conclude scientific truths-it decides law based upon the constitution and common law. Get that?
The determination will not be left up to the individual. Once the scientifically sound conclusion is accepted, that will become the law of the land.
Like evolution? Give it up. Science will always be questioned and it will be up to the individual to pick out waht it right.
I believe that out there lurks a person with a Martin Luther King type of personality, mentality, and determination, although, perhaps, not so placid a disposition.
Are you comparing someone who will arrest a doctor for performing a legal procedure that...you are comparing that person to MLK? Wow, just wow.
Mr. Justice Blackmun did, indeed, acknowledge the subject and immediately followed with his "need not speculate" clause. With those words he left the door open for re-visiting the decision.
He acknowledged he didn't know, and that means something. Teh court does not decide scientific truths because they can change quite easily over time, which has shown to be the case. Tehn there is the definiton of life itself whether you focus on actual life (which can be anything from a fetus to a fingernail or skin cell) or on personhood. I agree that is when life begins, but not when personhood begins, and somehow, I doubt the court in this day and age of cat-calls of activist judge would dare touch it with that definition which is so dear to so many on the line.
You apologize for one red herring and immediately follow it with another. You know full well that I have never argued the question on morality or philosophy. I see it as merely a question of secular biology. No morals, no philosophy, no religion.
Fine, and I disagree in your definition of personhood. We can end this part of the conversation now.
Sorry, I must have missed that in my haste to show you what the folks in the "Show Me" state are up to.

To answer you.

One day, in a lower court, a law suit will commence on some facet of abortion. The list of those giving testimony will include scientists, geneticists, obstetricians, and other experts who will furnish data concluding that human life is present from the moment of conception. Previously, this had not been done.

Given the work in the field of in-vitro fertilization, DNA research, pre-natal surgery, the state of the art ultra-sound scanning equipment, and other technological advances not even dreamed of in 1973, it becomes easier each day to make the secular case that abortion kills a living human being.

It is unlikely that there will be conflicting testimony. All opposing arguments will center on privacy.

This evidence will wend its way through the system and ultimately lay before the nine justices, and will, therefore have to be considered.

By the way, It must have really frosted Tom Daschle's agates when his home state did this. Note particularly the portion of section 2 which I have bolded. That's the kind of stuff the Supreme Court will have to consider -- reinforced validity of a scientific fact.

"The Legislature finds that the explosion of knowledge derived from new recombinant DNA technologies over the past twenty-five years has reinforced the validity of the finding of this scientific fact."
Honestly, I have nothing to respond to that. If they want to not do their job and make scientific fact their business, then fine. Wait, why am I arguing a conservative argument, someone get in here and do it for me!

Alright, I will let a true conservative argue that for me and I will take a different road. Scientific fact is great and all, but that doesn't mean that everyone accepts it. Look at the, over and over again, proven theory of evolution. They don't accept this, just like I don't accept your definition of personhood. When life begins is different than when personhood begins and that is a distiction that I find I will never agree with you on.
 
ShamMol said:
Alright, I will let a true conservative argue that for me and I will take a different road. Scientific fact is great and all, but that doesn't mean that everyone accepts it. Look at the, over and over again, proven theory of evolution. They don't accept this, just like I don't accept your definition of personhood. When life begins is different than when personhood begins and that is a distiction that I find I will never agree with you on.
Face it. The worm is turning. I cited legislation from two states that codifies the concept of "human life begins at conception" and is entitled to the protections afforded to persons.

I wonder why the various pro-abortion groups, Planned Parenthood, the ACLU, and the like, haven't raised a fuss over this.

I believe they realize that a challenge would force the courts to confront the issue that "abortion results in the death of a live human child". I further believe they realize they have not the ammunition to argue against the evidential testimony of scientific, medical, obstetric, and genetic experts.

The only argument available to the pro-abortion groups is 'privacy'. They realize that, when compared to the death of a live human child, the argument of privacy cannot prevail. Therefore, they don't want a showdown.

They do not want to risk having Roe V. Wade going the way of Dred Scott, Plessy v. Ferguson, and some 200 (so I've heard on a TV newscast) other Supreme Court decisions which have been reversed, overturned, or vacated by a subsequent court over the years.

If you don't care for my alluding to a person possessing the great attributes of Martin Luther King, then simply change it to 'a knight in shining armor on a great charger facing off against the terrible fire-breathing dragon'.

In any event, while you seem to believe that Roe. v. Wade will last forever, I believe that its days are numbered.
 
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