Seattle's Wage Hike Not Working

[Hawkeye10]

I guess....I misplace that often. :doh It's hard to see that wink and nod from here. Thanks.

I even do TRIGGER WARNINGS sometimes, because you never know when someone who needs them to function might pop along.

SARCASM ALERT!

:blah:

 

[ludin]

You're right, shoulda been $30/hr-

why not 100 then everyone would be rich.

 

[ludin]

I don't think raising the minimum wage is the only or best answer to low or stagnant wages, but the article skims over things a little too much for me. From the article:

"To begin with, the economists said, some of the workers weren't helped at all, since their pay would have likely gone up anyway with experience and tenure on the job."
If we are talking about minimum wage jobs the amount of tenure needed to make $11 bucks an hour would be outstanding. I don't buy that some workers would see that big of a pay bump to their wage solely based on tenure.

"Although workers were earning more, fewer of them had a job than would have without an increase," the Post said. "Those who did work had fewer hours than they would have without the wage hike."
I accept that there is obviously going to be some job loss with any raise in wage, but the fewer hours thing is annoying. Notice it isn't claiming that they get paid less overall, but just that they work less. I see that as a benefit.

A year or two from now the studies on Seattle will be more interesting, but I haven't seen anything too damning yet.

working less pretty much means that employers cut their hours back to what they would have made before. if not working is good for you then well I guess that is ok.
it also means they are not making as much money. working hours is how hourly people make money. working overtime or having the ability to work overtime
is where they make their extra.

 

[ludin]

instead of increasing wages, WHY doesn't the government make a dollar WORTH a dollar, so it has more buying power.

answer: because they love to create money, which keeps the dollar worth about 4 cents

:roll: a dollar is worth a dollar.
go into any dollar store and buy an item they will ask you for 1 dollar.

Now if you are talking about what a dollar can buy that is a bit trickier.
there are many factors that go into the value of the dollar.

Things like inflation affect the price of goods and services.

we also aren't making the same pay that we were in the 1950's either.
you also have to usually work less hours to buy a similar item in 1950.

 

[Moderate Right]

working less pretty much means that employers cut their hours back to what they would have made before. if not working is good for you then well I guess that is ok.
it also means they are not making as much money. working hours is how hourly people make money. working overtime or having the ability to work overtime
is where they make their extra.

Employers are also probably figuring in that by cutting hours they will also be cutting not only labor dollars but healthcare dollars as well.

 

[ocean515]

This is a very slanted view of the Jacob report http://evans.uw.edu/sites/default/files/MinWageReport-July2016_Final.pdf . From the report: Seattle economy “boomed” over this period, posting growth rates that “tripled the national average” and “outpaced Seattle’s own robust performance in recent years.” The vast majority of low-wage workers end up with higher earnings. Even if some workers lose some hours of work, their annual income often goes up (which, in fact, is another finding from the study). Higher wages also made reduction in workers requiring SNAP benefits (food stamps).

Trickle down had it's turn and failed to deliver, time to let the money percolate up for a change. Seattle and San Francisco show this much much more equitable results, and increases economic activity.

The report also concludes:We do not find compelling evidence that the minimum wage has caused significant increases in business failure rates. Moreover, if there has been any increase in business closings caused by the Minimum Wage Ordinance, it has been more than offset by an increase in business opening.

I think your final sentence points towards the concept of the articles you define as "very slanted".

While business owners have found ways to deal with the higher cost of labor, what about the wage earner? Have they benefited? The article provides evidence they may have not.

 

[ludin]

Employers are also probably figuring in that by cutting hours they will also be cutting not only labor dollars but healthcare dollars as well.

yep because if they fall below the 30 hour mark they don't have to provide healthcare.

 

[Master PO]

:roll: a dollar is worth a dollar.
go into any dollar store and buy an item they will ask you for 1 dollar.

Now if you are talking about what a dollar can buy that is a bit trickier.
there are many factors that go into the value of the dollar.

Things like inflation affect the price of goods and services.

we also aren't making the same pay that we were in the 1950's either.
you also have to usually work less hours to buy a similar item in 1950.

no its not, based on the takeover of the federal reserve of our money.

since 1913 the dollar as fallen, today it takes over $22 dollars to equal the buying power of the dollar of 1913.

the dollar today is around 4 cents today , before the federal reserve the dollar actually at 1 time was worth 1 dollar and 8 cents.

people complain theY need more money, but what they need is the buying power of the dollar restored to it former value.

 

[MrWonka]

The Bitter Lesson From Seattle's Minimum Wage Hike | Stock News & Stock Market Analysis - IBD

Minimum Wage Study: Effects of Seattle wage hike modest, may be overshadowed by strong economy | UW Today

Liberals just fail to comprehend that their liberal policies often not only don't do well, but backfire many times. And when they don't work their solution is usually to do more of the same.

Do you even read the links you post? What this study is saying is that the economy in Seattle is doing so ****ing amazing that workers would have likely seen a raise anyway therefore the minimum wage didn't bump them up that much. Well guess why the economy in Seattle is doing so ****ing amazing? Because almost everyone in the city just got a raise last year. That lead to more spending which actually grew the economy.

Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, Washington Metropolitan Unemployment Rate and Total Unemployed | Department of Numbers

Well would you look at that.... The minimum wage took place in Seattle not the entire state of Washington. Well it turns out that Seattle's unemployment rate fell to 4.7% this month which is lower than the national average and a full % point lower than the state overall. As it turns out raising the minimum wage did nothing to kill jobs like conservatives claimed it would. In fact Seattle created even more jobs, and those jobs all pay more than they used to.

Even your own study was required to admit the fact that the wage increase did result in higher pay for workers even if it thinks it was only a few bucks per week. In fact this may indicate another positive benefit of the minimum wage hike that even I hadn't thought of. What it seems to be saying is that on average people at the minimum wage worked 1 less hour per week. It's claiming that their hours are being cut, but I would submit to you that is not actually the case at all. What you're seeing is that some workers who were doing okay before the raise can now afford to work a few hours per week less and still make about the same amount of money. You're seeing students who can afford to work less and focus more on studying. This results in businesses needing to hire additional workers to fill those shift gaps. That may actually improve the economy even further.

 

[Green Hornet]

I think your final sentence points towards the concept of the articles you define as "very slanted".

While business owners have found ways to deal with the higher cost of labor, what about the wage earner? Have they benefited? The article provides evidence they may have not.

Then the article is incorrect, the article uses the same report as the city of Seattle commissioned, that I previously linked. The report does not show minimum wage earners suffered any loss. In the 18 months after the Seattle Minimum Wage Ordinance passed, the City of Seattle’slowest-paid workers experienced a significant increase in wages.
The typical worker earning under $11/hour in Seattle when the City Council voted to raise the minimum wage in June 2014 (“low-wage workers”) earned$11.14 per hour by the end of 2015, an increase from $9.96/hour at the time of passage.The minimum wage contributed to this effect, but the strong economy did as well. We estimate that the minimum wage itself is responsible for a $0.73/hour average increase for low-wage workers...
.

 

[Green Hornet]

yep because if they fall below the 30 hour mark they don't have to provide healthcare.

They were not doing that anyway. Low wage workers make up the largest share of public charges.
This comes down to a basic concept if you work full time hours, you should not be in poverty or a public charge.

 

[ocean515]

Then the article is incorrect, the article uses the same report as the city of Seattle commissioned, that I previously linked. The report does not show minimum wage earners suffered any loss. In the 18 months after the Seattle Minimum Wage Ordinance passed, the City of Seattle’slowest-paid workers experienced a significant increase in wages.
The typical worker earning under $11/hour in Seattle when the City Council voted to raise the minimum wage in June 2014 (“low-wage workers”) earned$11.14 per hour by the end of 2015, an increase from $9.96/hour at the time of passage.The minimum wage contributed to this effect, but the strong economy did as well. We estimate that the minimum wage itself is responsible for a $0.73/hour average increase for low-wage workers...
.

How much did their take home earnings increase?

 

[ludin]

They were not doing that anyway. Low wage workers make up the largest share of public charges.
This comes down to a basic concept if you work full time hours, you should not be in poverty or a public charge.

I have worked full time almost my entire life but I had the skill and the knowledge to ask for more than minimum wage.
when I did not have those skills or knowledge then I did work for minimum wage.

working full time is meaningless. you make money by skills and knowledge.

not being in poverty is easy, however you have to do something with your life instead of just waiting for it to be handed to you.
that is your opinion not a concept.

 

[Green Hornet]

I have worked full time almost my entire life but I had the skill and the knowledge to ask for more than minimum wage.
when I did not have those skills or knowledge then I did work for minimum wage.

working full time is meaningless. you make money by skills and knowledge.

not being in poverty is easy, however you have to do something with your life instead of just waiting for it to be handed to you.
that is your opinion not a concept.

No that is completely incorrect, and has not been Public Policy since 1938, when the Fair Labor Labor Stranded Act was passed.

 

[Critter7r]

Revenue - expenses = profit

Anyone who says that you can double wages with no increase in production and not eventually have layoffs does not know how to run a business...or even possess economic common sense.

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/44995

Doubling the minimum wage over a very short period of time WILL result in less jobs in America...period.

Not maybe, not possibly...100% certainty.

Nobody here is advocating for "doubling" anything, nor even increasing it over a "very short period of time". Increasing it to $10 by 2021 or 2025 is not a "very short period of time".

And how many "less jobs" are we talking. 16? A thousand? Eleventy billion?

 

[ludin]

No that is completely incorrect, and has not been Public Policy since 1938, when the Fair Labor Labor Stranded Act was passed.

red herring argument. has nothing to do with what I said.

 

[ludin]

Nobody here is advocating for "doubling" anything, nor even increasing it over a "very short period of time". Increasing it to $10 by 2021 or 2025 is not a "very short period of time".

And how many "less jobs" are we talking. 16? A thousand? Eleventy billion?

7.50 to 15 is doubling the last time I checked.

 

[Critter7r]

7.50 to 15 is doubling the last time I checked.

And who here is advocating the jump to $15? I can't think of anybody.

 

[MrPeanut]

working less pretty much means that employers cut their hours back to what they would have made before. if not working is good for you then well I guess that is ok.
it also means they are not making as much money. working hours is how hourly people make money. working overtime or having the ability to work overtime
is where they make their extra.

Your second statement clashes your first statement. If a person can make about the same amount of money and get an extra day off in the process I believe that is a good thing. Maybe it will encourage them to pursue a degree, now that they have the free time, or maybe they will get a second job which will certainly leave them off better than they were before the increase. The problem with minimum wage increases is that the benefits and the pitfalls are not spread evenly which makes it hard to analyze. It takes time to see how things play out.

 

[ludin]

And who here is advocating the jump to $15? I can't think of anybody.

Seattle, parts of CA parts of NY and DC has done it have you not been reading?

 

[Visbek]

The whole point of my post is that these articles and studies have shown that the increased wages has not caused worker's overall wages to go up (because their hours have been cut back) and it has caused higher unemployment.....

You're also deliberately overemphasizing the negative effects, ignoring positive effects, ignoring how negative effects you predicted haven't materialized, fail to recognize that this is still a preliminary report, and deliberately ignore the opinion of the authors. Impressive.

It also doesn't account for the fact that Seattle has a higher cost of living than Hope, Arkansas.

Uh, hello? This type of report isn't designed to compare the effects of minimum wages in Arkansas, which has a significantly different economy and labor force. That's why they are comparing it to nearby areas, which have similar costs of living and workforce. (Although there are significant differences between Seattle and its surrounding areas.)

If you want to know the effects of a minimum wage hike in Arkansas, you need to look at or conduct research in Arkansas.

And again, the research on this -- including this report -- is not even remotely a slam dunk against minimum wage increases.

Again, you guys are more interested in your liberal economic models than you are in helping the poor.

<< shakes head >>

Yes, it is so awful to try and help people by increasing their incomes. It's downright fiendish!

By the way, what policies do YOU have on offer? We've already seen how "doing nothing" results in minimum wage workers relying on safety nets to survive. Perhaps that's your answer, then? Are you willing to subsidize low-income workers, who can't survive on their wages, with safety nets like food stamps, housing assistance, tax breaks for low income earners, or guaranteed income?

 

[Verthaine]

The Bitter Lesson From Seattle's Minimum Wage Hike | Stock News & Stock Market Analysis - IBD

Minimum Wage Study: Effects of Seattle wage hike modest, may be overshadowed by strong economy | UW Today

Liberals just fail to comprehend that their liberal policies often not only don't do well, but backfire many times. And when they don't work their solution is usually to do more of the same.

Wait,one city fails so that mean all other cities that gave a minimum wage hike has failed also?

 

[ludin]

Your second statement clashes your first statement. If a person can make about the same amount of money and get an extra day off in the process I believe that is a good thing. Maybe it will encourage them to pursue a degree, now that they have the free time, or maybe they will get a second job which will certainly leave them off better than they were before the increase. The problem with minimum wage increases is that the benefits and the pitfalls are not spread evenly which makes it hard to analyze. It takes time to see how things play out.

they still aren't making anymore money which was the whole point of the 15 dollar minimum wage yes?

I was working 40 hours now I am working 20 hours at 15. then guess what I am making the same money.
sure I could go find another job if there is one out there to hire me.

as it looks that isn't the case.
nothing I said clashes with anything.

Half Of Washington DC Employers Have Cut Jobs, Hours Due To Minimum Wage Increases - And It's Going To Get Worse | Zero Hedge
Employers cut jobs, raise prices as state minimum wages rise - The Blade

we already know how they will react because they are already doing it.

 

[MrPeanut]

they still aren't making anymore money which was the whole point of the 15 dollar minimum wage yes?

I was working 40 hours now I am working 20 hours at 15. then guess what I am making the same money.
sure I could go find another job if there is one out there to hire me.

as it looks that isn't the case.
nothing I said clashes with anything.

Half Of Washington DC Employers Have Cut Jobs, Hours Due To Minimum Wage Increases - And It's Going To Get Worse | Zero Hedge
Employers cut jobs, raise prices as state minimum wages rise - The Blade

we already know how they will react because they are already doing it.

One of the purposes of the 15 dollar minimum wage was try to put more money in workers pockets. In that sense alone it hasn't been a success. Another purpose is that if an employer decides to cut hours all of the sudden that minimum wage employee will have free time while making near the same amount of money. It may not seem like much, but having that extra day a week in your schedule could be a real motivator for some people.

These are the statements that you made that I believe clash.

"working less pretty much means that employers cut their hours back to what they would have made before. if not working is good for you then well I guess that is ok.
it also means they are not making as much money."

I don't value work by itself as something to be cherished. Work for money definitely is. If my value is increased via minimum wage increase and that results in less hours but a similar paycheck that is fine with me.

 

[Visbek]

Seattle, parts of CA parts of NY and DC has done it have you not been reading?

Seattle's minimum wage was not $7.25, it was $9.47 before April 1. Companies with less than 500 employees won't hit the $15/hour mark until 2021, by which point inflation will almost certainly have eroded the purchasing power of that wage by $1.

NYC's minimum wage is $10.50/hour. Some surrounding counties have similar increases, while most of NY state (geographically speaking) will hit a whopping $12 by 2020. There are variations based on the size of the business, and the county in which it operates.

It's still a big jump, but more like 50%. Not 100%.