Seattle's transit system struggles as riders refuse to pay

[EMNofSeattle]

What???

Why is access not restricted?

I've riding els & subways since I was a baby in my parents' & grandparents' arms!. I've never seen one (in my city) without access restriction.

Have you ever been to Seattle?

This is a long running issue, so to explain it briefly, sound transit, the operator of these trains is a “special taxing district” that is privileged under state law to set its own rates, set its own fees, not have any elected oversight, and can even set its own district boundaries at will.

It is highly corrupt and not subject to any direct oversight.

The fare evasion has been tolerated for a long time because they’ve spent hundreds of billions of dollars since the 1990s and they’ve completed very little of the original project goals. So in the late 2000s, around 2009 if I remember, they opened the “link” light rail system and the ridership numbers were terrible, they wasted large amounts of money on a project that carried like 1/2 a percent of daily commutes, so then they started justifying it by claiming ridership was 100 times higher than official numbers and that the low numbers were because of fare evasion.

From then on they made only sporadic efforts to enforce fare evasion rules, sound transit doesn’t have their own police department, and they only hire a small number of King County sheriffs deputies as transit police, most fare enforcement is by private guards, but the political climate in Seattle has long been to tolerate fare evasion, so if you’re a private guard and detain someone for fare evasion, if they refuse to cooperate and attempt to leave the train or the station you have to physically arrest them and call the sheriffs office, but they have only like 15 or so deputies who do sound transit so you have to arrest someone for maybe hours to get a cop to actually arrest them.

Then to actually pay, you have to purchase your ticket at a ticket machine not on the actual platform. So if you don’t know and walk yo the platform there’s not a ticket machine. You have to walk back downstairs and buy than walk back up.

TLDR, sound transit has long tolerated fare evasion to cover up corruption, they don’t hire sufficient law enforcement, the politics of the region and the specificity of state law in regards to enforcing this means they’te basically not trying.

If you ever do visit, don’t bother paying for the train, I sure don’t.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

You know what's really interesting?

If/when they put up turnstiles we will never see a thread about it.

We may never see a thread, but that doesn’t mean there won’t be problems. I’ve literally never paid a penny to ride LA metro. They have turnstiles but they’ve disabled the fire alarms on the doors next to the turnstiles for some odd reason and I’ve learned from the homeless that they just reach over and open the door and let themselves in. Works for me

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Leave it up to Trumpsters to show up and inject politics into a thread that has nothing to do with politics...

Everything is about politics with them... It's the most important thing in their lives... Sad..

If you’ve lived in the PNW you would know that sound transit is just a money laundering and political patronage arm of the state Democratic Party. There’s labor unions for construction workers that openly hire people using the promise that ST is a lifetime job at prevailing wage

 

[EMNofSeattle]

London's system is indeed excellent.
It always amuses me when you hear Londoners moaning about public transport when they have by far the best system in the country with loads of underground trains and almost limitless options for busses.
To be fair the system in London was the first ever Underground system and has been built up since then.
This is both a blessing and a curse.

I can't imagine the Underground system without gates though and because we have the Oyster system which makes payment easy fare dodging isn't a huge problem here.

I think the difference is, the London tube is actually a transit system. The Pacific Northwest and it’s development is not conducive to transit, so sound transit, the agency operating the trains in this thread, is not actually a transit agency, it operates toy trains as a front for laundering tax payer money to political allies of the state Democratic Party.

This may sound like a wild claim, but I’ve seen it myself at job fairs where labor unions representing construction workers for these projects have promised lifetime employment on ST accounts at prevailing wage (prevailing wage is a system in the US where government contracts have to promise to pay a wage set by labor unions when bidding for state work, how it works in practice is, imagine any kind of trade work and add 10 pounds an hour just to work on a government job). That’s just the trade workers, but there’s entire admin offices full of compliance officers, diversity commissars, etc. all of the local city mayors get to be on the board and collect a seperate government salary for being on the board. Then there’s a quirk of Washington state law where any tax used to secure state debt can not be repealed, so they attach sound transit debt to all kinds of city and state taxes so the voters can’t repeal taxes by referendum and legislators can’t legally repeal taxes without paying the face value of the bonds. It’s a way of preventing voters from ever having a means of repealing taxes

Every project ST has ever started has been years over schedule and very over budget.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

It's partly the design of the stations, which are often at-grade and aren't much more elaborate than just shelters for waiting passengers.

Word of good enforcement of ticket-holding will spread. Some light rail systems have it and some don't.

Link stations are not “at grade” nearly all of them are elevated, and the ones in downtown are in a subterranean tunnel

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Interesting, in the lack of turnstiles. I'd hope there's random ticket-checks, then.

There is, but if you refuse to provide your name to the security guards and look like you might use violence to avoid paying they will let you go. It’s their policy.

I’m serious. If one of those pinkertons ever stops you just shout “**** you!” At the top of your lungs and shout “don’t touch me, I know thr RCWs, keep your hand off me!” Then slip out of the train when it stops, I’ve seen it happen.

And yes, I've often heard that pedestrian traffic more highly regulated and enforced in Europe.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Here's how it's done in the bigger American cities, where public miscreants are a constant hazard :

1] The turnstile bars on the entrance turnstiles only spin one direction (outward), unless a fare is deposited. Then, it will only move 1/3rd of a revolution to accommodate only one individual.

2] The exit turnstiles likewise only turn in one direction - exiting:

3] Here the entrance & exit turnstiles are used in combination:

--

Note how in all instances above, the entire area is essentially sealed-off from any ingress or egress, besides going through the turnstiles.

LA metro has this set up, kind of, except the fire exit doors at the egress are only waist high and they ended up turning off the fire alarms that are supposed to come on if the fire doors push bar is pushed. So most people just reach over the fire door, push the bar, open it and walk in the exit.

If you can’t tell. The west cost liberal cities don’t want to make it impossible to jump the fares. That’s the only conclusion one can draw, they can make fare evasion difficult and they choose not to.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

The lost fare income is not $168B. Transit systems expect to cover operating costs, not necessarily have a return on investment. The return is found in quality of life and overall economic development. I also question the $168B number. I find it very hard to believe it was anywhere near the costly to put a rail system in a metro area the size of Seattle. It was likely about 1/10 of that. Of course, its a Faux News story designed to instigate outrage of ignorant viewers, so it must be fact checked. Consider yourself played... so, let's unbunch your panties, eh?

Here is an article on the Seattle transit system. The light rail system cost about $3.0B to complete. The larger transit system was about $20B, all in. No where in the articles below would you find any number that approaches the number used in the Faux New article.

Why Sound Transit's projects are so costly - Seattle Business magazine

Sound Transit is on the move. The regional transportation authority, which operates rail and bus services in three central-Puget Sound counties, is completing a light-rail extension from downtown Seattle to Capitol Hill and the University of Washington campus, and has plans underway to extend...

seattlebusinessmag.com

Kent Reporter

www.tukwilareporter.com

Light rail systems often operate with a show your ticket on demand system. There are no turnstiles in Denver, either.

Sound Transit 3, the last taxing measure approved was for 54 Billion dollars in bonds. That’s just the bonds for the next 30 years of construction, not operating expenses or the last 30 years.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Maybe having it free at point of use but paying for it with higher income taxes makes sense? After all, a transit system that charges everyone the same could be seen as a regressive tax system if you look at it from a certain perspective.

Washington state has no income taxes, and there is state Supreme Court rulings saying your income is property and therefore can only be taxed at the same rate as property, which doesn’t allow for progressive taxation.

Voters have overwhelmingly rejected state income taxes at the ballot many times

 

[Phys251]

Won't really help. No public transportation system can support it's operations from fares anyway. Here in SoCal our latest metro train expenses is basically at a cost of $22 per mile per RIDER! Taxpayers are footing the bill for these loser sadsacks who use public transportation anyway.

How much profit do freeways turn, CJ?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

How much profit do freeways turn, CJ?

Like literally every dollar in profit made in Southern California silly.

virtually all industry in SoCal would fall apart if there wasn’t an efficient road network to move employees to work, this isn’t even taking into account truck deliveries. Have you even been to LA county? Next time you’re there try driving through east LA, and Compton, and Commerce, and Bell, and Vernon, and Carson, and Wilmington, and Long Beach. Rail alone cannot support all the industries and the towns where those workers live.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Shut it down. Let them walk.

And shut the city down, great idea

 

[Napoleon]

And shut the city down, great idea

I’m fine with writing-off Seattle.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

And shut the city down, great idea

Sound Transit carries such a low percentage of daily commutes that shutting it down wouldnt even be noticeable to the average citizen. You may not know this, but sound Transit is younger than me. It was started in like 1993, and there was a functioning city and Puget sound metro area since long before that.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I’m fine with writing-off Seattle.

It’s too bad that we lost World War Two because there was no Boeing factories because no cities could exist in the northwest before sound transit was invented to funnel money to democratic donors

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Sound Transit carries such a low percentage of daily commutes that shutting it down wouldnt even be noticeable to the average citizen. You may not know this, but sound Transit is younger than me. It was started in like 1993, and there was a functioning city and Puget sound metro area since long before that.

I expected it would have a similar ridership that Calgarys LRT would have, if not more so. Shutting it down would see 100 000 more cars on the streets and likely a large number of people who could not get to work or University

Calgary's started in the mid 80' and is packed during rush hours

With a lot going to work downtown or to the university for school. For a smaller system it has targeted the right pathways

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I expected it would have a similar ridership that Calgarys LRT would have, if not more so. Shutting it down would see 100 000 more cars on the streets and likely a large number of people who could not get to work or University

No it wouldn’t.

Firstly because public transit would still exist, the light rail system is expensive, inefficient, and doesn’t cover commonly travelled routes, and nearly all transit trips in king county are by bus or vanpool, secondly sound transit carries very few riders, single didget percentages of commutes at most.

And again, no one had a problem getting to work or university (the university of Washington is very close to the city center and in a very walkable neighborhood) before 1993

 

[upsideguy]

Sound Transit 3, the last taxing measure approved was for 54 Billion dollars in bonds. That’s just the bonds for the next 30 years of construction, not operating expenses or the last 30 years.

A reasonable response, but an incorrect one by implication. Yes, Seattle approved a large bond to finance Sound Transit 3 over the next 30 years. This represents a 5x expansion of the system and is in current and future dollars. The poster that I was challenging, who clearly could not meet the challenge, was asserting that the system had already had an investment of $168B, which was absurd.

Denver built its entire light rail system for about $5B (See RTD 2019 budget, Exihibit I - 1b3a). Which was the basis for thinking the $168B was an absurd number.

Seattle built out its system in three phases: Sound Move I, Sound Transit II and the currently underdevelopment Sound Transit III, which you cite.

Building the system | Sound Transit

How we plan and build complex transit projects, and how you can get involved.

www.soundtransit.org

SoundMove I: Total Cost: $3.9B



SoundTransit II: Total Cost: $17.8B

From cite: "....The ST2 Plan will cost an estimated $17.8 billion in capital and operating investments to expand
the regional high-capacity transportation system – Link light rail, Sounder commuter rail, and
ST Express bus service. The capital and other associated costs that would be incurred from 2009
through 2023 are as follows...." (look as cite, if you want to know)

Yet to built (or currently under development) is SoundTransit III, which is a $58.9B project.

From cite: "....The Sound Transit 3 Plan will cost an estimated $53.85 billion in capital and operating investments to expand
the regional high-capacity transportation system. The estimated capital and other associated costs that will be
incurred from 2017 to 2041 are as follows..." see cite if you need to know.

OK, so the Seattle transit system as it stands today is $3.9B + 17.8B + some small part of Sound Transit III - Call it $25B.

When Transit III is done in 2041, the all in number will be about $70B.... and this is a future number and it is far, far less than the $168B Faux News accepted from a loose-lipped politician without even considering the reasonableness of it and one of our other posters furthered lie by posting here with not only not challenging the reasonableness of it, but pathetically challenging me without any facts whatsoever.

When an estimated 70% of the riders aren't paying the fare do you believe they'll recover operating costs?

You do?

It does sound hard to believe, doesn't it?

Likely? LOL, well you're wrong.

I see. Again, you're wrong. I've already looked it up in like 5 minutes. But I'm going to let you remain in the dark, because you're so sure of yourself.

LOL! Nope. One extension cost about that much. But, you know the numbers.

Again, nope.

That must mean you're right! LOL. ...you're not.

Maybe Seattle is full of dishonest losers?

What a pathetic fact-free rant. Perhaps you would like to look above an learn a bit about how you research something. There is no basis of a claim that the Seattle transit system has a $168B investment. You clearly did not "look it up in 5 minutes" or you would have posted it. I produced evidence; you countered with more ignorant BS. Pathetic! Debate is about presenting your case and backing it up. No one is interested in ill-informed opinions.

BTW, I am not here to convince you. I am only here to show others how mis-information is spread by the ignorant. You certainly fell into that trap here.

This is also a great example of how loose Fox News is with facts and how its ignorant viewers just accept what is handed to them as truth. You were played.

 

[Court Jester]

How much profit do freeways turn, CJ?

Last I checked freeways are not transportation, they are roads. But it is true that for the commuters riding city transit buses on those freeways, the riders are not paying their fair share for the bus ride or for the roads.

But to toss your lame point right back at you, if public transportation were the same as freeways and roads, then shipping companies would be allowed to use city buses for shipping products and then just pay the same token fares which don't cover the transportation costs of the buses and trains. You

Why am I not surprised that a socialist does not understand economics?

 

[Chomsky]

Maybe having it free at point of use but paying for it with higher income taxes makes sense?

I could see that, if the numbers work-out and the tax does not deter the city's desirability in attracting new business. Hey, for all we know it may be a selling card for business!

After all, a transit system that charges everyone the same could be seen as a regressive tax system if you look at it from a certain perspective.

I get that.

 

[Phys251]

Last I checked freeways are not transportation, they are roads.

But it is true that for the commuters riding city transit buses on those freeways, the riders are not paying their fair share for the bus ride or for the roads.

But to toss your lame point right back at you, if public transportation were the same as freeways and roads, then shipping companies would be allowed to use city buses for shipping products and then just pay the same token fares which don't cover the transportation costs of the buses and trains. You

Why am I not surprised that a socialist does not understand economics?

None of your stupid-ass post answers my question.