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Scientific American - Global warming is real

Unfortunately human nature does not work that way. You have to give an incentive for people to behave in the desired fashion or you have to give a disincentive against behaving in the undesired fashion. Pollution never has been and never will be solved by voluntary actions. The libertarian idea that people will just be able to use the free market to not buy products from pollutors or to sue them for polluting is ludicrous. It has never worked this way and never will. Remember that movie, Erin Brokovich? It was about a real case. The outcome was so unusual that they MADE A MOVIE ABOUT IT. The EPA and FDA exist because of this reality, the people demanded that their government step in and fix this problem.

Here's the mind-boggling thing about Cap and Trade: the Republicans came up with it. John McCain and Sarah Palin campaigned on it as a free market approach to pollution. What the ****? The health insurance mandate was their idea too, as was the Public Option that got removed from the healthcare bill because it was "too socialist." I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS HERE.

What no response to this?


Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
For the 973rd time, man affects temperature but man is not the ONLY cause of temperature change. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
Because you say man is 100% responsible for Global Warming. You can't have it both ways. More propaganda and exaggeration from GW promoters
 
Quote Originally Posted by Deuce
... man affects temperature but man is not the ONLY cause of temperature change. Why is this so hard for you to understand?


... Because you say man is 100% responsible for Global Warming. You can't have it both ways. ...


Perhaps the obvious disconnect is the cause of the problem. Deuce says something, you reply telling him he said something different, then spout irrelevant talking points..
 
No I said climate change not weather nice spin but climate change has a history long before the industrial revolution. Was the Ice age climate change? Did man cause it?

you said the temperature in San Diego. Guess what? That has absolutely nothing to do with climate, but everything to do with weather.
 
Unfortunately human nature does not work that way. You have to give an incentive for people to behave in the desired fashion or you have to give a disincentive against behaving in the undesired fashion. Pollution never has been and never will be solved by voluntary actions. The libertarian idea that people will just be able to use the free market to not buy products from pollutors or to sue them for polluting is ludicrous. It has never worked this way and never will. Remember that movie, Erin Brokovich? It was about a real case. The outcome was so unusual that they MADE A MOVIE ABOUT IT. The EPA and FDA exist because of this reality, the people demanded that their government step in and fix this problem.

Here's the mind-boggling thing about Cap and Trade: the Republicans came up with it. John McCain and Sarah Palin campaigned on it as a free market approach to pollution. What the ****? The health insurance mandate was their idea too, as was the Public Option that got removed from the healthcare bill because it was "too socialist." I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS HERE.

I'm more optimistic about human nature than you are.
For me and most people I know care about the envirionment and do our best to conserve, recycle etc. I think we have way to much government interference in our lives and need less not more of it.
As far as Sarah Palin and cap and trade, well when she said she was for it way back when it caused a big stir and led many of us to believe she was not for us. I have no idea what she was thinking then, but it was wrong thinking that she has gotten past.
The other stuff with mandates etc. I don't really know, but glad they've changed their minds. By the way I am no fan of McCains.
 
Quote Originally Posted by Deuce
... man affects temperature but man is not the ONLY cause of temperature change. Why is this so hard for you to understand?





Perhaps the obvious disconnect is the cause of the problem. Deuce says something, you reply telling him he said something different, then spout irrelevant talking points..

No Duece says Global warming is 100% caused by man then a couple days later says man is not the only cause. Now he runs and will not explain it. More propaganda and exagerations from GW defenders.
 
you said the temperature in San Diego. Guess what? That has absolutely nothing to do with climate, but everything to do with weather.

You seem to forget what that was a response to. Nice try but false
 
I'm more optimistic about human nature than you are.
For me and most people I know care about the envirionment and do our best to conserve, recycle etc. I think we have way to much government interference in our lives and need less not more of it.
As far as Sarah Palin and cap and trade, well when she said she was for it way back when it caused a big stir and led many of us to believe she was not for us. I have no idea what she was thinking then, but it was wrong thinking that she has gotten past.
The other stuff with mandates etc. I don't really know, but glad they've changed their minds. By the way I am no fan of McCains.

The part that makes my brain squirm is how the very same GOP leaders who introduced these ideas are now standing up and saying these exact same ideas are going to destroy our country. Not just other members of the GOP having a different opinion, I mean literally the same people who stood up in congress saying we need Cap and Trade are going on television and denouncing it as evil socialism. Wait? Your ideas are going to destroy our country, Senator? Then why did you support them in the first place? Why did you support an idea that you yourself are now calling socialism?

The GOP is just way better at politics than the Democrats are. They're getting the Democrats to enact Republican bills while being called socialists for doing it.
 
No Duece says Global warming is 100% caused by man then a couple days later says man is not the only cause. Now he runs and will not explain it. More propaganda and exagerations from GW defenders.

The current warming, ptif219. Look, you don't understand, so just give up.
 
So you distrust NASA because? Because they don't match how you reason the way the earth works in your head? How do you feel about electric motorcycles btw?
 
So you distrust NASA because? Because they don't match how you reason the way the earth works in your head? How do you feel about electric motorcycles btw?

I saw a segment on last nights news about an electric motorcycle. They run it for an hour, then recharge it for an hour and a half....
and it costs considerably more than a regular motorcycle....but these were dirt type bikes, and I suspect a road bike does better on the use/charge time ratio.
 
The current warming, ptif219. Look, you don't understand, so just give up.

No I understand that if you are left to talk long enough you will contradict yourself and show what a propagandist you are
 
So you distrust NASA because? Because they don't match how you reason the way the earth works in your head? How do you feel about electric motorcycles btw?

Nasa and the IPCC are playing politics with science. Notice Hansen's predictions over the years have failed

As for motorcycles I will stick with my Harley and will continue to use ethanol free gas in it for ethanol ruins air cooled engines.
 
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No I understand that if you are left to talk long enough you will contradict yourself and show what a propagandist you are

The current warming is caused by man. That doesn't mean that man is the only cause of warming. You literally do not understand basic, simple logic.
 
The current warming is caused by man. That doesn't mean that man is the only cause of warming. You literally do not understand basic, simple logic.

well THAT seems contradictory....are you saying that the current warming is caused by man but that other warmings were not?
No way can Man be the only cause of current warming, or warmings in the past. There are far too many factors involved to determine any one cause at any one time.
 
well THAT seems contradictory....are you saying that the current warming is caused by man but that other warmings were not?
No way can Man be the only cause of current warming, or warmings in the past. There are far too many factors involved to determine any one cause at any one time.

That's exactly what I'm saying and it's only contradictory if you're an idiot.

Last time my car's window was cracked it was caused by hail, therefore hail is the only thing that can make a car window crack! See how dumb that sounds? Because that's what some people around here seem to think.

The current warming trend was started by our CO2 emissions. Previous causes of warming trends have been increases in solar activity, changes in continental configuration, or the regular shifting of the earth's orbit. None of those things are causing the current warming. That is easily determined. There have even been changes in the earth's CO2 levels, but in the past those have been a result of rather than a cause of temperature, so in those cases CO2 acted as a feedback rather than a forcing. (we're ignoring the earth's primordial stage, things were just too different back then to be a good indication of anything)


Weather has a lot of variables that make it difficult, but not impossible, to predict. Global average temperature, on the other hand, is actually far more simple. How much energy goes into the system vs. how much energy comes out of the system.

Edit: And the fact that skeptics use climate scientists' research to attack the research of climate scientists is hilarious. You say climate changes naturally. Where, exactly, did you get that information from? How do you even know that there ever was an ice age?
 
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What does it matter if we are the sole cause of GW or not? We know that our pollution is a factor in it at the vary least. We also know that we can find far cleaner forms of energy than what we currently use, we know that our current main sources of energy are finite, and we know that recycling helps keep our planet cleaner. Who cares really if a handful of douche bags think we are the sole cause and another handful think we don't affect it at all? I mean really, it's pretty easy to be green these days...what harm could it possibly do?
 
Edit: And the fact that skeptics use climate scientists' research to attack the research of climate scientists is hilarious. You say climate changes naturally. Where, exactly, did you get that information from? How do you even know that there ever was an ice age?
I would bet that all scientists agree that ice ages have occurred...the last one, the Little Ice Age, was noted in the "new world" and in Europe.
Besides, I saw the movie on it, there were talking animals and everything....:2razz:
 
The current warming is caused by man. That doesn't mean that man is the only cause of warming. You literally do not understand basic, simple logic.

That is not what you said. So are you saying without man there would be no warming?
 
What does it matter if we are the sole cause of GW or not? We know that our pollution is a factor in it at the vary least. We also know that we can find far cleaner forms of energy than what we currently use, we know that our current main sources of energy are finite, and we know that recycling helps keep our planet cleaner. Who cares really if a handful of douche bags think we are the sole cause and another handful think we don't affect it at all? I mean really, it's pretty easy to be green these days...what harm could it possibly do?

It shows the lies and propganda of GW promoters like Duec,e the IPCC and Hansen
 
The part that makes my brain squirm is how the very same GOP leaders who introduced these ideas are now standing up and saying these exact same ideas are going to destroy our country. Not just other members of the GOP having a different opinion, I mean literally the same people who stood up in congress saying we need Cap and Trade are going on television and denouncing it as evil socialism. Wait? Your ideas are going to destroy our country, Senator? Then why did you support them in the first place? Why did you support an idea that you yourself are now calling socialism?

The GOP is just way better at politics than the Democrats are. They're getting the Democrats to enact Republican bills while being called socialists for doing it.

I might be wrong but I think Rep. are/were willing to support some kind of energy bill. However when the one they are looking at is 2000 some pages of regulations, taxes,job killers, intrusions on our lives and will do nothing to change climate I think they have to say no.
 
I would bet that all scientists agree that ice ages have occurred...the last one, the Little Ice Age, was noted in the "new world" and in Europe.
Besides, I saw the movie on it, there were talking animals and everything....:2razz:

That is my point, more or less. You know there were ice ages because paleoclimatologists did the research and came to this conclusion. You'll believe that research without question but carbon emissions causing a warming trend, research done by the same scientists? MUST BE A CONSPIRACY!
 
That is my point, more or less. You know there were ice ages because paleoclimatologists did the research and came to this conclusion. You'll believe that research without question but carbon emissions causing a warming trend, research done by the same scientists? MUST BE A CONSPIRACY!
If intentional, yes a conspiracy. I tend to think that AGW is just mass hysteria. Yes, man contributes to it, but whether or not that contribution will make a difference in the long run is not clear.
Certainly we can't undo what has been done in anything less than a hundred years.
First, it will take more new, yet to be discovered, technology applied on a grand scale to make a noticeable difference.
That will be the easy part compared to the the second part, that is for us to start living lifestyles that consume much less energy without impacting our economy negatively. Global conservation, while the right thing to do, has to be balanced against growth in emerging nations. Whatever we conserve in currently industrialized nations will be more than used up elsewhere.
 
That is my point, more or less. You know there were ice ages because paleoclimatologists did the research and came to this conclusion. You'll believe that research without question but carbon emissions causing a warming trend, research done by the same scientists? MUST BE A CONSPIRACY!

You want to deny that as history shows climate change is natural. You now want to say it is 100% man and nature has nothing to do with it. That is not believable or truthful.
 
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