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[W:#2026]School's out forever: Arizona moves "to kill public education" with new universal voucher law

The Secretary to the Board is not an elected office
Correct.
and has absolutely zero qualifications or duties past that of an administrative assistant.
Again, I can only speak to the duties of the ones around here, but this statement would be WOEFULLY ignorant in this area.
It is an administrative position. The purpose of which is to record board minutes, maintain board files, announce board meetings and changes, etc.
How about finances? Does she oversee the finances of the district (coding expenditures, ensuring payments are made to vendors, etc.)? Even if not, the things you're saying are INCREDIBLY important, as the Board (I assume) governs the district.
The salary we pay to ours is more than double the AVERAGE pay for a Board Secretary in the state of NJ.
Then either she's better than what you're saying, she's sleeping with the boss, or (and I assume this most likely) you live in a fairly wealthy district.
 
I could easily earn far more money in another field. Even had a quasi job opportunity for roughly double what I'm making now.

No, it means I don't believe in being evil. You, on the other hand, pay more than double your state average in property tax and are completely fine with poor people not being educated. If only someone had been repeatedly pointing this out throughout the thread...

Because statistics and logic just don't support this baseless conclusion. Again, are there bad schools and bad teachers? Sure. Never have said otherwise. But the system as a whole does a much better job than it could be reasonably expected to do.

You're sitting in a gilded carriage and telling the people huddled in the gutters they don't deserve the opportunities your child gets.
Actually, not even close.

I'm sitting here screaming that with the funding that our schools get, there should not BE children that are not receiving the services they NEED and are legally entitled to by law because the well-funded public schools in NJ are failing kids.

So, if the well-funded schools cannot get it right, then provide any student and family that wants one, a voucher refunding them back their money so that they can give that money to a school that WILL get it right.

We keep dumping buckets of money into a broken system...which then gobbles up the money, provides no better service, and sticks its hands out asking for more.

It isn't working. It isn't doing what it is supposed to do. It is broken, bloated, and inefficient.
 
Does she oversee the finances of the district (coding expenditures, ensuring payments are made to vendors, etc.)?
Nope, that's a different position...we pay that guy $84K part-time.
 
Actually, not even close.
You literally said:
The failing public school closes.

Win-win.
You are cheering the closing of the only avenue a significant portion of America has to receive an education, as someone with enough wealth to pay more than double your state average in real estate taxes. That's exactly what's happening.

Like I said, I see the real problem here...and it's not the public school.
I'm sitting here screaming that with the funding that our schools get, there should not BE children that are not receiving the services they NEED and are legally entitled to by law because the well-funded public schools in NJ are failing kids.
By your own admission, this is not happening. By your own admission, you're receiving money from the state (that your posts in this thread suggest you don't truly need) to send your child to a private school that has the services you're seeking.
 
By your own admission, this is not happening. By your own admission, you're receiving money from the state to send your child to a private school that has the services you're seeking.
A fraction of the money I pay...and a fraction of the tuition I pay. This is not a zero sum game...there is still a large lump of my tax money that's still in the system (I'd love to know exactly WHERE that is going, tbh) our local district won't specifically receive it if he isn't enrolled there...so where does it go? Question for another day I suppose....
You are cheering the only avenue a significant portion of America has to receive an education
I'm cheering for a significant portion of America to have the OPPORTUNITY to CHOOSE a better option than a failing system for their kids. Many currently do not have the OPTION because we only fund public schools. Vouchers allow OPTIONS, especially for people that do not have the financial means to otherwise afford private schools.

You're arguing that the only choice those without affluence should continue to have is a system that fails them. I know you don't see it that way...because you believe that the end all and be all is the public school system. It is not.
 
Are you in Arizona? When was the last time you rang up a private school to ask what they cost? Average private tuition there is between 9k and 15k....so, wise one...where is the rest of the money going to come from? Should we just deny a certain segment of the population an education? ....also, if you take those funds and hand them to parents...that is less funding for public school systems....which means schools will close.
Absolutely, some will close. That's what happens when competition comes into play. The better options succeed and the options not chosen/wanted, fail. Kind of a big and important nudge to public schools in my view. As I've talked about previously, some public schools are highly sought after right now - because they are known to do a good job.
When I was a kid, most went to a specific public school based on the location of their home. There were a few private schools but most everyone went to public school. When my children had little kids, they were choosing among public schools, getting on wait lists, and such. I never did get all the details but I think each child was guaranteed a spot at one school but had the option of going to another school within the district if room was available and their child was accepted. It seemed like a whole "choice" door had opened up, even within public schools. Now, this is just another step in that direction. Since I'm a big fan of school choice and the education of my children was a high priority to me and to them (and now to them with their children), I think education is wonderful place to increase choice. Children simply are not one size fits all.
 
A fraction of the money I pay...and a fraction of the tuition I pay.
But that's your choice. In more ways than one.
This is not a zero sum game
But that's exactly what you're wanting.
...there is still a large lump of my tax money that's still in the system (I'd love to know exactly WHERE that is going, tbh)
Your school's budget is public information. All you have to do is request it. But your state's website has information on budget summaries.


So you can start there.
our local district won't specifically receive it if he isn't enrolled there...so where does it go? Question for another day I suppose....
There's no mystery.

"Here’s how it works: If you live in a low-income district, especially an urban one, most of your school district costs are covered by the state. If you live in a high-income district, then local property taxes pay for almost all of your school costs. Most people agree that this is progressive and fair: the amount of money spent on a child’s education shouldn’t depend on his or her parents’ income or a family’s ability to move into a high-quality school district."


I'm pretty certain I've already posted that once.
I'm cheering for a significant portion of America to have the OPPORTUNITY to CHOOSE a better option than a failing system for their kids.
The public education system is not failing. This is a myth I have repeatedly debunked. What is failing is society. Society is failing our children, not the public schools.
Many currently do not have the OPTION because we only fund public schools.
Which is the way it should be...public funds for public schools.
Vouchers allow OPTIONS
Options to attend schools which have the option not to accept any student they do not wish. Public money should not go to further discrimination.

, especially for people that do not have the financial means to otherwise afford private schools.
Private schools are inherently no better than public schools. This has been repeatedly covered.
You're arguing that the only choice those without affluence should continue to have is a system that fails them.
The public education system, on the whole, is not failing the children.

But what you're arguing is to close the public school system, which means the only children who will be allowed an education at all is those of affluence. You're advocating for a system which literally has the outcome you're claiming here is bad.
I know you don't see it that way...because you believe that the end all and be all is the public school system.
I don't see it that way because it is wrong. Just because you're unable to see the big picture doesn't change the fact the things you are saying are indisputably wrong.
 
Absolutely, some will close. That's what happens when competition comes into play. The better options succeed and the options not chosen/wanted, fail. Kind of a big and important nudge to public schools in my view.
A big and important nudge to public schools...to do what? What exactly do you think public schools can do, under the law, with existing funding and with their existing clientele, that they do not do now?
 
Absolutely, some will close. That's what happens when competition comes into play. The better options succeed and the options not chosen/wanted, fail. Kind of a big and important nudge to public schools in my view. As I've talked about previously, some public schools are highly sought after right now - because they are known to do a good job.
When I was a kid, most went to a specific public school based on the location of their home. There were a few private schools but most everyone went to public school. When my children had little kids, they were choosing among public schools, getting on wait lists, and such. I never did get all the details but I think each child was guaranteed a spot at one school but had the option of going to another school within the district if room was available and their child was accepted. It seemed like a whole "choice" door had opened up, even within public schools. Now, this is just another step in that direction. Since I'm a big fan of school choice and the education of my children was a high priority to me and to them (and now to them with their children), I think education is wonderful place to increase choice. Children simply are not one size fits all.
Around here, the highest level of competition seems to be with students getting into the technical high schools (public). I know people that have kids spending their summers preparing to take tests in the winter so they can get in.

We just had a local school district get in trouble for saying that they would no longer pay the "sending" of kids to the technical school and they got smacked down. Just because District D provides electrician classes does not mean they are on par with the classes provided by Technical school...therefore, they have to provide the funds to technical school and could no longer be telling parents/students they wouldn't.

It was great to see. And exactly what SHOULD be expanded across schools, not just specific to the technical schools.

If district A cannot provide a service as well as school B...and parents want their child to attend School B...then school B gets the money.
 
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I meant here at DP... but yeah, there are some ****ed up liberals out there just like there are some racist woman hating conservatives out there.

Unlike you, I dislike both sides and their hatred. You generally seem to only embrace one.
Some? This is a state.
 
But what you're arguing is to close the public school system
I'm arguing to make the public school system COMPETE. If they can change and become competitive, they keep their money. If they can't, they close. Competition isn't a bad thing. Why are you afraid of public schools having to compete?
 
and what happens to those who cannot f****** afford the rest of the tuition? Tough luck? What about those with kids with special needs? Guess what happens when demand rises? The price goes up....imagine this...you send tens of thousands of kids into the private system.....the cost will double or triple.
Clara, you are just wrong about this. This is what you see when you enter the Harvard University financial aid page, and this is 100% true. And don't think for a second these students from poorer families aren't being accepted because they will require fully paid tuition. They are absolutely being sought after and accepted. Honestly, it's the middle class who are really being squeezed in paying for their children to attend institutions like Harvard and the most expensive K-12 private schools. For that group, costs do get pretty high - precisely so these schools can afford to give all these scholarships out. And boy do they ever want to give out these scholarships to our nation's poor. It's their mission and they are very dedicated to it.
Now, no doubt I'm talking about excellent students loaded with potential. No average students get accepted to these universities (unless they paid for a new wing, but that's an entirely different topic) but good private schools, beginning in kindergarten, are very dedicated to finding and educating talented kids among our nation's poor.
As far as academically average or less than average students, they weren't getting these opportunities before AZ changed their law and they won't be now. But that is no reason to force every student into the same bucket. There have long been high achievers in public schools, those who struggle to graduate, and a whole bunch in between. Nothing AZ has done will change that natural spread.


Screenshot 2022-07-05 074256.png
 
Here’s a real life example:

2018 more than 1,000 public schools in AZ closed because of a teachers strike and parents had to “figure it out”.

Covid 2020 shut down schools in AZ on and off for months.

Parents like the one in your scenario figured out how to make it work, how to help with “virtual” school, etc. Parents figure it out daily when a school closes for one reason or another - you just haven’t been a parent with kids in public school recently enough to remember.
No kidding, because if that parent was employed at a grocery store, they were "essential" and had to show up to work while their children were home for so darn long. And there are certainly a great number of days off of school (even when it's in session/in person) when working parents have to figure it out.
 
"Every red state in the country should follow [Ducey's] lead," since the law "gives every family a right to exit any public school that fails to educate their children or reflect their values."
Problem spotted.

Public schools allow brown people in and don't replace science with the old testament on demand.
 
If what you find funny was the only metric by which to judge public education, you'd have a point.

However, since you arent, and you think asymptomatic means not sick, regularly pitch QAnon nonsense and Trumpian garbage, I think they need more funding in general.

Does anyone other than Fishking have anything to say about Arizona not funding schools?
Historically for-profit schools are very poor performers
Arizona will deserve their future
 
Nope.
Catholic schools are not for profit
Spin again
Spent 13 years in Catholic schools.

Indoctrinate children to believe the dumb garbage that they believe. Admitting that Galileo was correct in 1992 was hilarious.
 
I'm arguing to make the public school system COMPETE.
But you're making them compete as a burger joint with a $15/hr minimum wage against the burger joint next door with a $3/hr minimum wage. Force private schools to educate all children. Force them to provide special education for all children. Force them to take the Johnnys of the world. Force them to submit all the student documentation public schools do. Force them to follow the same laws and regulations public schools have to follow.

When you do that, you'll find that the public schools are doing a far better job.
If they can change and become competitive, they keep their money. If they can't, they close. Competition isn't a bad thing. Why are you afraid of public schools having to compete?
A) Because education is not about competition B) if it were about competition, the playing field is extremely unlevel C) the losers of public schools closing are most likely the students who are already at a societal disadvantage.
 
But you're making them compete as a burger joint with a $15/hr minimum wage against the burger joint next door with a $3/hr minimum wage. Force private schools to educate all children. Force them to provide special education for all children. Force them to take the Johnnys of the world. Force them to submit all the student documentation public schools do. Force them to follow the same laws and regulations public schools have to follow.

When you do that, you'll find that the public schools are doing a far better job.

A) Because education is not about competition B) if it were about competition, the playing field is extremely unlevel C) the losers of public schools closing are most likely the students who are already at a societal disadvantage.

So, you boil your argument down to "But, competition isn't fair...make competition fair, and then we will compete and you'll see how good we are"

This is what happens when generations are raised with the mindset everyone gets a trophy....you don't get excellence, you get people complaining that competition isn't fair.

Except they don't just want the participation trophy...they want ALL the funding also.
 
[snip]
Last Friday, while the country reeled from the Supreme Court overturning Roe v Wade, Arizona made history of a different sort. Legislators in the Grand Canyon State passed a universal school voucher bill that, once signed by Gov. Doug Ducey, will become the most wide-reaching school privatization plan in the country.

In his January State of the State address, Ducey called on Arizona lawmakers to send him bills that would "expand school choice any way we can," and the Republican-dominated legislature obliged, delivering last Friday's bill, which will open a preexisting program for Empowerment Scholarship Accounts (ESAs) up to the entire state. In practice, the law will now give parents who opt out of public schools a debit card for roughly $7,000 per child that can be used to pay for private school tuition, but also for much more: for religious schools, homeschool expenses, tutoring, online classes, education supplies and fees associated with "microschools"

"Every red state in the country should follow [Ducey's] lead," since the law "gives every family a right to exit any public school that fails to educate their children or reflect their values."

From Rhode Island, anti-CRT activist Nicole Solas, a fellow with the right-wing Independent Women's Forum, tweeted, "You know what happens when you abuse people? People leave you. Bye, public school."

"The Republican universal voucher system is designed to kill public education," tweeted former Arizona House Rep. Diego Rodriguez. "OUR nation's greatness is built on free Public schools. The GOP goal is to recreate segregation, expand the opportunity gap, and destroy the foundation of our democracy."

"I think it's a very serious mistake and the result will be that, within a decade, Arizona will have a very, very poorly educated adult population," added Carol Corbett Burris, executive director of the Network for Public Education. "Maybe that's the game."

"One of the things people never fully comprehend is how far privatization advocates want to take things," he said. "They want to get rid of all public funding for education. Eventually vouchers will die off too." What will remain, he argues, will be a self-funded primary education system, funded by a lending market much as colleges are. Or as Lewis says, a "system of haves and have-nots."

[snip]

At this point, every post I put in the breaking news section feels like I'm documenting the rise of Christian Nationalism. It seems like every day...a little piece of our society is stripped away. A little closer to their vision of theocratic fascism. On it's own...this is not a huge deal. But take in the context of current events this is just one more chip away.


The public schools are already failing our students. That's the problem, really.

We already do have a very very poorly educated adult population.

I can tell you this - in my state - the charter schools significantly outperform the public schools. Frankly, if it was between public schools and homeschooling these days, I would homeschool in a minute. The public schools are not keeping up, and it seems to me that a lot of the focus is on social issues, and not education.
 
Look at all the posters on the right blaming the public schools for their own childrens' failings.

When the public schools are passing kids to the next grade who don't meet basic grade standards, and when they are graduating kids from high school who don't know basic history, math and literature, then there is a problem. And, that is where we are right now.
 
When the public schools are passing kids to the next grade who don't meet basic grade standards, and when they are graduating kids from high school who don't know basic history, math and literature, then there is a problem. And, that is where we are right now.

You should have made your kids work harder.
 
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