anomaly said:
Now in your discussion of his 'points' however, you claim that the USA is socialist through following '50%' of what it says. If that's how you look at it, than most countries in the world and most which have ever existed are socialist (that's of course not true).
Yes, USA is only about 50% socialist.
But think about how capitalistic the US pretends to be and used to actually be! We were like the most capitalistic society out threre.
And now we're 50% socialist!
That's a HUGE change....
anomaly said:
Show the evidence for this. In the global capitalist society, we see workers exploited coninually. You have no evidence to back up your claim that the bourguosie are so kind as you make them seem.
How about the fact that almost every job these "horrible" bourguosie give in the US ALREADY pays more than minimum wage, even though they don't have to.
Now why would they EVER do that, since they want to be as evil as possible?
O wait, that's right! It's because happy workers are productive workers!
They make more money by paying their workers more!
Also, looking at global capitalism, jobs going overseas help those people.
What may seem like a fraction of a livable wage in the US is enough to have a decent living in other countries.
And, people in those other countries are only taking the jobs because they think those jobs are better than where their currently working.
anomaly said:
Present one of these 'studies'. To me, if you pay a worker 50 cents an hour, causing him to not be able to afford to live, that hurts the worker. But hey, that's just me.
Here is a sample study:
http://www.house.gov/jec/cost-gov/regs/minimum/against/against.htm
While minimum wage is nice in theory, problems arise when businesses realize they don't have an infinite money supply.
Now for me to explain in a simple example:
I own a cake factory, where I have 10 workers and pay them each $4/hr.
Every week each worker works 40 hours and produces 20 cakes.
I sell the cakes for a reasonable $10 each to the grocery stores.
My total expenses to the workers each week is $1600.
My total profit from selling the cakes is $2000.
It costs me $100 to pay the bills on the factory each week.
I take home $300 per week and my workers each take home $160 each week.
NOW: Our best buddy government creates a MINIMUM WAGE of $5/hr.
If I continue operating as I have, I will now be paying $2000 a week in wages.
All of the sudden, I am faced with a major dilemma.
I have 2 choices to fix things to how they should be, and BOTH are unfair to the workers in my factory.
a) Fire 2 workers (that's 1/5 my work force) to make up for the extra costs. Not only that, but now my 8 workers left must make 5 more cakes a week just for me to maintain the same level as before. Worker happiness is likely to decrease, some may even leave the job. The other two are now unemployed.
b) Raise the prices of my cakes. I would now have to make each cake I sell to the manufacturer cost $12. But that's if I'm lucky. If my consumers don't take kindly to paying $2 more for their cakes (which most probably won't), then they will buy less than I manufacture. Which means I must increase the price EVEN MORE or start laying off people. And what happens to my workers? The extra cost of the cakes is passed off to them, and they may be layed off from lack of production.
As you can see, even a simple example of a cake owner with ONLY 10 workers suffers from a slight increase in minimum wage. Think how many jobs are lost and how much prices increase for EVERY BUSINESS IN THE COUNTRY.
anomaly said:
Socialists wish to better the condidtion of the world's people, and help the workers who have for centuries been hurt by capitalism. Socialists advocate the use of force when the proletariat are the vast majority and are exploited by the bourgeosie, I advocate this only in poorer countries where workers will gain rights. But in the USA, force would never work, since the military is so strong. Socialism can happen through force, or through democratic action, which I prefer.
I don't mean force in revolution.
I mean FORCE actually incorporated in your form of government. People are FORCED to give up all private land. People are FORCED to give up practically everything they produce. This use of FORCE in government is what I do not think is right. Although I have no problem if your government if voluntary, because then people are deciding to give up their properties.
anomaly said:
How am I allowed to create my ideal society, you fool? WE socialists see the national government run by two anti-socialist parties (they support global capitalism and are eating away at the old welfare state). And our nation is ruled by the market, anymore, not the workers, the people. It is capitalist in that we see production strictly for profit, which means companies throughout the world will do what is neccesary to raise profit, including submit workers to terrible condidtions. We see that all the time. There is no socialist party, but we see two pro-market parties.
I did not say you would be able to convert the world into capitalism.
All you must do is create YOUR OWN community government where everyone agrees to abide by and live under socialist rules. All business and production in your society would be for the betterment of the people, etc.
The rest of the world can go ahead and remain 50/50, while your community can stay as socialist as you want.
anomaly said:
And if complete freedom is what you wish for, capitalism is not the answer. Paradoxically, socialism is. Socialism, or the handing of the economy over to a government chosen by the people, gives people indirect control over the economy. The governemnt acts in the will of the people, neccesarily, to remain elected, and therefore will improve conditions abroad.
Socialism is democracy. And democracy is majority rules.
Another name for majority rules: MINORITY
LOSES
It's fine with me if your socialist community if entered into voluntarily, but when you FORCE people to adapt your government, you are screwing all MINORITIES in every case whatsoever.
Majority rules is not freedom.
Individual rules is freedom.
anomaly said:
Socialism will in turn light a fire that will lead to global socialism, and from here the people can democratically decide to go to anarcho-communism, which seems to be what you really want.
I wouldn't be caught dead in a socialist society.
And neither would the other 40,000 US libertarians.
Unless you decide to FORCE socialism on us (which is what I hate so much), then you obviously aren't going to have global socialism.
anomaly said:
Perhaps socialism, which benefits the majority, would seem more appealing if it weren't achieved through force. If so, I can provide you with a few ideas of mine concerning how to achieve this.
Exactly! Please do it without force!
If you will try and understand me, you'll realize the only government that doesn't use force is a libertarian one!
Only under libertarian government are all people free to live and abide by their own set standards and rules.
Only under a libertarian government can a socialist and capitalist community live side by side without breaking the law.
I'm fine with letting you have yours!
Now let me have mine!