School uniforms

[Winter Ivy]

And, with regard to understanding appropriate dress, wouldn’t learning to dress for business be a kind of teaching ‘freebee’?

Last time I checked, most investment banks don't require plaid skirts.

Seriously, my arguments above about the nature of learning about life and the nature of social perception address this. Letting kids choose their own clothes ultimately teaches them more about dress and the power of appearance than uniforms.

Productivity drops on every Friday, regardless of casual dress. Your company may be the exception to the rule, but the statistics are so sound that that's what they're teaching in every Wharton management class.

One does not need a Wharton MBA to understand that the TGIF syndrome does, indeed, cause a measurable drop in productivity. However, when casual dress is an additional factor, the result is a ‘double whammy’.

Circular. See Harvard Business Review's Guide to Managing people. While productivity always goes down on Friday, it goes down less with casual dress than with formal dress, while also fostering an atmosphere that promotes innovation (which is key to getting ahead in the business world).

I spent time tutoring in one. Control of classroms wasn't as much of a problem as resources impacting morale, at least from what I could see.

In my experience, the best, and certainly the most important classroom resource is the person in charge. The right person in a one room schoolhouse can get more out of and more into kids than the wrong person in the most modern and well equipped classroom. If a pupil likes a teacher, nothing can prevent learning.

Except for gang making it dangerous to commute each morning, crumbling infrastructures, and insufficient books, classrooms, and chalk.

If a pupil dislikes a teacher, nothing can motivate that kid.

If that were true, we'd see first-generation poor Asian kids with the same educational profiles as third-generation Americans. Teachers are not the be-all-end-all motivators: parents, safety, and knowing people who used their education to obtain excellent jobs also play integral roles.

Regardless of the particular school, it’s amazing to see the way kids with multiple teachers often perform differently for each one. Rather than write off some kids, many teachers would be wise to remember that one catches more flies with a spoonful of honey, than a barrelful of vinegar. I hark back to the old adage, ‘If the pupil hasn’t learned, the teacher hasn’t taught.”

Complaints about public money and resources are merely excuses advanced by well educated teachers and administrators who do not know how to outfox kids.

Then how would you "outfox" them?

If you doubt that, you may wish to do a little research on the results achieved at parochial schools and by home schoolers.

I have. At most parochial schools, teachers don't take the time to "outfox" their students, as you recommend. "Vinegar" is used far more than "honey" -- and those who don't like it are simply expelled. According to your belief that "if a student doesn't learn, then a teacher isn't teaching," it looks like parochial schools aren't doing their jobs.

You can believe that all you want, but remember, the private schools aren't as cost-effective as you'd like to believe. In most states, the public school districts are required to supply private schools with books, transportation, etc. identical to public school students' on demand. If the public schools crumble, a lot of private school parents will find themselves without a solid educational infrastructure.

Secondly, America's university system is basically a sophisticated voucher system. What's happening? Costs are going up so much, and quality's going down due to the fact that they're becoming increasingly consumer-oriented, that America's rapidly losing whatever educational prestige we once had.

Your failure to comment on the experience of the Cleveland Public School System with a school voucher program leads me to believe that you have not researched the subject and are merely expressing an unfounded opinion.

Actually, I was commenting on it. I'm pointing out that it's too early to see the effects of it, but that other nations' and systems' experiments with vouchers have generally failed. See Brian Gill's Rhetoric vs. Reality (it's not the original study, which was conducted by a University of Chicago economist, but it's the only one that's available outside of an academic institution that's still readable).

If the university system in the US is rapidly losing prestige, it is because of the steady dumbing-down of curricula by faculty and administrators who, rather than priding themselves on excellence, apparently have other fish to fry. Else, how can the continually rising percentage of ‘honors’ graduates square with falling prestige?

Do you have any evidence for this? From what I've read, it's a combination of expense, health care, and research capability.

Secondly, why do you think there are so many honors graduates? If someone goes tens of thousands of dollars into debt for a piece of paper, of course they're going to want it to have a glittering GPA. Aren't free markets supposed to give consumers what they want?

Honey, I went to (U)Penn. In my pre-professional track, we were "strongly encouraged" (i.e., had to) take courses where we taught and tutored kids at West Philadelphia High School. If you really want, I can give you a detailed description of the school's physical layout as it was five years ago. Your "polygraph" may flash red, but it'd be a false alarm.

Sweetheart, West Philly High seems like just the school setting referred to a couple of subjects back. Were the major problems a need for more metal detectors and armed guards? If so, the Cleveland ‘method’ would work wonders for those kids.

From what I'm told, the kids in Cleveland who weren't able to get into the private and parochial schools -- or who were expelled by them -- still have to deal with metal detectors. That's hardly working wonders.

When I was an undergrad, Philly public schools were in the process of implementing uniforms, so it was quite a hot topic of discussion.

Yes, I understand that the Philadelphia Public School System, with about a quarter million students, began requiring uniforms about the year 2000, or so. Any idea of the results?

A discussion of Philly's changes is a whole topic in and of itself. In terms of uniforms, they're not doing what it was supposed to do: gangs, drugs, and violence are still huge problems with little statistically significant changes. (Interestingly enough, the magnet schools were exempt from the requirements.)

Ivy

 

[mixedmedia]

You are free to find acceptable whatever you wish. However, I reserve the right to decide what affectations, actions, and dress I deem distasteful, offensive or, in some cases, grotesque. Because some screwball kid decides to embarrass his parents and make a point, I don't have dignify his lunacy by recognizing it as mainstream.

If you choose to tolerate only that within the mainstream then you are being decidedly intolerant.
Desensitization refers usually to something that people should be sensitive about, such as violence or barbarity. What is it exactly that is so disturbing about "screwball kids" who dress in a way you find out of the mainstream?
You know, if you ever got to know any of these kids, you might find them to be perfectly nice and admirable human beings.

 

[mixedmedia]

My point in comparing Catholic school uniforms to Japanese sailor uniforms is that it doesn't matter what the uniform looks like: they still single out young girls, which sexualizes high schoolers in the wider culture in a dangerous way.



Physically yes, but "good" in social terms is still dictated by t.v. and fashion houses.



If you're trying to learn about your individuality and tolerance, "modest jewelry" that's fundamentally part of the dress code doesn't help.



In Philly, they found that those touches still foster gang, class, and drug problems.



Call me crazy, but I think having books that are less than 15 years old goes and buildings without severe asbestos problems goes much farther to promoting a scholarly atmosphere than uniforms.

Ivy

I understand your point here, but I don't see the huge significance of the issue. We are only talking about young people's time at school. From my observation, they have no problem dressing to suit their individual tastes when out of school.

Learning about tolerance and individualism goes far beyond what clothes one wears to school. These can still be learned, encouraged and appreciated in schools with a uniform mandate.

I'm not sure what you meant about the "good clothes" comment. But I can say, for my clothes-horse daughter, tv or fashion houses are definitely not setting her trends.
But many of the clothes that are very successfully being marketed to young girls today call for pubic shaving and barely cover their asses. Call me old-fashioned, which I'm not, but I don't find that acceptable or, more importantly, good for a girl's blossoming self-image. It's all connected in my mind to the Barbie doll phenom that I have always felt was wrong for young girls - determining a sexual identity long before they should be burdened with such things.

Khakis and polo shirts don't carry the same sexual connotation as plaid skirts, sorry to disagree with you there. And in fact, the clothing that is marketed for young girls these days is more sexually-oriented by far.

Certainly safe schools and adequate materials is very, very important. But I don't see where the issue of uniforms has an impact on it. I will flip head over heels to advocate for it though.

 

[LiberalFINGER]

I was trying to read through all of this and I started to glaze over.

I would think that we were mature enough to realize that the discussion of school uniforms were exclusive of fetish gear such as japanese sailor style uniforms and catholic school girl get-ups.

 

[Fantasea]

Fantasea wrote:
You are free to find acceptable whatever you wish. However, I reserve the right to decide what affectations, actions, and dress I deem distasteful, offensive or, in some cases, grotesque. Because some screwball kid decides to embarrass his parents and make a point, I don't have dignify his lunacy by recognizing it as mainstream.
.

mixedmedia replied:
If you choose to tolerate only that within the mainstream then you are being decidedly intolerant.
Desensitization refers usually to something that people should be sensitive about, such as violence or barbarity. What is it exactly that is so disturbing about "screwball kids" who dress in a way you find out of the mainstream?
You know, if you ever got to know any of these kids, you might find them to be perfectly nice and admirable human beings.

Fantasea responds:
The majority of these 'perfectly nice and admirable human beings' may not disturb those whose horizon doesn't exceed the distance they can throw a ball; however, I have had enough interaction with kids of all stripes to know that they fall into two main groups -- those who, as adults, succeed with a relative degree of comfort, and those who, as adults, struggle their entire lives in an effort to avoid misery.

The teen years are the formative years. While there may be a small percentage of exceptions, kids who resist, resent, and recoil from the standards that are respected and observed by colleges and employers tend to fall into the latter grouping. One morning, and it seems to come as a surprise to some, they wake up, look in the mirror and say, Wow, I'm in my twenties, and I'm a nothing. Everybody let me down."

Accepting, rationalizing, justifying foolish dress and behavior makes a good script for a third rate teen flick or sitcom. In real life, it's a letdown.

It's the responsibility of adults to guide adolescents along the road to success, not to stand idly by as they stumble about in blind indifference.

The United Negro College Fund slogan sums it up nicely, "A mind is a terrible thing to waste."

 

[Fantasea]

I was trying to read through all of this and I started to glaze over.

I would think that we were mature enough to realize that the discussion of school uniforms were exclusive of fetish gear such as japanese sailor style uniforms and catholic school girl get-ups.

Surprise! Sometimes one underestimates the other side.

 

[Schweddy]

Fantasea, I find it harder and harder to disagree with you.

If young men really did care about female sexuality over their individuality, you'd see marriage occur at a much younger age.

Marriage and getting laid are two completely different ideas to a young man. Trust me, when I was younger I would do anything for it. Come to think of it, its not much different now that I am married.

Last time I checked, most investment banks don't require plaid skirts.

Seriously, my arguments above about the nature of learning about life and the nature of social perception address this. Letting kids choose their own clothes ultimately teaches them more about dress and the power of appearance than uniforms.

Herein lies the problem. Little girls and boys are not smart enough to know what is acceptable or they choose cloths for the bleeding edge. For instance, playboy shirts were very popular last year in my wifes school. The faculty asked them not to wear them. Finally they resorted to demarits and suspensions.

The goal of the boy is to get laid, the goal of the girl is to be sexy. Nothing short of what nature has intended, but uniforms (hopefully not with skirts) could help detour the physical sex appeal during school hours.

 

[mixedmedia]

Fantasea responds:
The majority of these 'perfectly nice and admirable human beings' may not disturb those whose horizon doesn't exceed the distance they can throw a ball; however, I have had enough interaction with kids of all stripes to know that they fall into two main groups -- those who, as adults, succeed with a relative degree of comfort, and those who, as adults, struggle their entire lives in an effort to avoid misery.

The teen years are the formative years. While there may be a small percentage of exceptions, kids who resist, resent, and recoil from the standards that are respected and observed by colleges and employers tend to fall into the latter grouping. One morning, and it seems to come as a surprise to some, they wake up, look in the mirror and say, Wow, I'm in my twenties, and I'm a nothing. Everybody let me down."

Accepting, rationalizing, justifying foolish dress and behavior makes a good script for a third rate teen flick or sitcom. In real life, it's a letdown.

It's the responsibility of adults to guide adolescents along the road to success, not to stand idly by as they stumble about in blind indifference.

The United Negro College Fund slogan sums it up nicely, "A mind is a terrible thing to waste."

Well, if a mind is proven to be judged by the clothes that one wears, then I would suppose that could explain the mindless conformity of most of the adults I know.
Lighten up. Some people like red, some people like blue...some people like both. Why be so judgemental?
Besides, all sorts of people "make it" in life while holding onto their eccentric personal tastes in clothing, appearance and lifestyle. Perhaps not at work, but outside of it. People tend to find their niche.
The "nothings" you speak so disparagingly of are just as likely to wear "normal clothes" as they are to be punks as badly as you wish to believe it. I have met a lot of shiftless men in cowboy boots, haven't you? It's unfair to say that all punk kids grow up to be self-pitying losers. It simply isn't so.
Your suggestion that we teach our children conformity to prepare them for life is silly. Let them be while they're young.

 

[LiberalFINGER]

Well, if a mind is proven to be judged by the clothes that one wears, then I would suppose that could explain the mindless conformity of most of the adults I know.
Lighten up. Some people like red, some people like blue...some people like both. Why be so judgemental?
Besides, all sorts of people "make it" in life while holding onto their eccentric personal tastes in clothing, appearance and lifestyle. Perhaps not at work, but outside of it. People tend to find their niche.
The "nothings" you speak so disparagingly of are just as likely to wear "normal clothes" as they are to be punks as badly as you wish to believe it. I have met a lot of shiftless men in cowboy boots, haven't you? It's unfair to say that all punk kids grow up to be self-pitying losers. It simply isn't so.
Your suggestion that we teach our children conformity to prepare them for life is silly. Let them be while they're young.

This is a tough call. On the one hand, I can completely stand behind the argument for individuality. For instance, using Fort Campbell High School as an example, their dress code is more strict then what I am faced with here at work, and I work for a respected company.

I find it funny that when I went to high school, I never got into trouble with the dress code, but now, I would be in all kinds of hot water because my basic mode of dress is blue jeans, a shirt, and boots.

I see uniforms as an easy way out. If there is a prescribed uniform, then no one has to think about what they are wearing.

 

[Fantasea]

Well, if a mind is proven to be judged by the clothes that one wears, then I would suppose that could explain the mindless conformity of most of the adults I know.

I regret that your social circle is thusly populated. Perhaps you might considering expanding it to include more of those whom you might find up to your standards.

Lighten up. Some people like red, some people like blue...some people like both. Why be so judgemental?

I prefer to think of it as discriminating, in the sense of the word before the advent of political correctness made it dirty.

Besides, all sorts of people "make it" in life while holding onto their eccentric personal tastes in clothing, appearance and lifestyle. Perhaps not at work, but outside of it. People tend to find their niche.

The problem is not finding a niche; it's being relegated to a niche that one finds both unpleasant and impossible to escape.

The "nothings" you speak so disparagingly of are just as likely to wear "normal clothes" as they are to be punks as badly as you wish to believe it. I have met a lot of shiftless men in cowboy boots, haven't you? It's unfair to say that all punk kids grow up to be self-pitying losers. It simply isn't so.

Since there are few absolutes in life, you are correct; not 'all'. However, the odds are stacked against them to extent that rising above their present circumstances is all but impossible.

Your suggestion that we teach our children conformity to prepare them for life is silly. Let them be while they're young.

Let them be while they're young ignores the old Pennsylvania Dutch admonishment: "Too soon olt; too late schmardt".

By the time a kid reaches the late teens, there jest ain't much time left to get the act together.

What is the purpose of spending a public fortune on twelve years of mandatory education for each kid, if not to get away from that, "Let them be while they're young"., attitude?

 

[Pacridge]

This is a tough call. On the one hand, I can completely stand behind the argument for individuality. For instance, using Fort Campbell High School as an example, their dress code is more strict then what I am faced with here at work, and I work for a respected company.

I find it funny that when I went to high school, I never got into trouble with the dress code, but now, I would be in all kinds of hot water because my basic mode of dress is blue jeans, a shirt, and boots.

I see uniforms as an easy way out. If there is a prescribed uniform, then no one has to think about what they are wearing.

Once agian I find myself agreeing with you. I think there are good arguments for the uniforms. But it's a tough call. If you do have uniforms you remove a lot of the social class issues. Poorer kids aren't so easy to spot if no ones wearing $350 sneakers.

 

[Fantasea]

Once agian I find myself agreeing with you. I think there are good arguments for the uniforms. But it's a tough call. If you do have uniforms you remove a lot of the social class issues. Poorer kids aren't so easy to spot if no ones wearing $350 sneakers.

Yes, it's amazing to see the 'poorer kids' zipping around with the latest Nike high end creations, isn't it? Can't shoot hoops without 'em.

 

[mixedmedia]

I regret that your social circle is thusly populated. Perhaps you might considering expanding it to include more of those whom you might find up to your standards.


I prefer to think of it as discriminating, in the sense of the word before the advent of political correctness made it dirty.


The problem is not finding a niche; it's being relegated to a niche that one finds both unpleasant and impossible to escape.


Since there are few absolutes in life, you are correct; not 'all'. However, the odds are stacked against them to extent that rising above their present circumstances is all but impossible.


Let them be while they're young ignores the old Pennsylvania Dutch admonishment: "Too soon olt; too late schmardt".

By the time a kid reaches the late teens, there jest ain't much time left to get the act together.

What is the purpose of spending a public fortune on twelve years of mandatory education for each kid, if not to get away from that, "Let them be while they're young"., attitude?

I don't even know where you're going with this anymore. Is it your argument that learning to conform to the mainstream of society while you're a teen is the only healthy & productive path to adulthood?
If so, with all due respect, Fantasea, for I don't want to bicker with you, perhaps it is you who would benefit most from expanding your circle of friends.

 

[Fantasea]

I don't even know where you're going with this anymore. Is it your argument that learning to conform to the mainstream of society while you're a teen is the only healthy & productive path to adulthood?
If so, with all due respect, Fantasea, for I don't want to bicker with you, perhaps it is you who would benefit most from expanding your circle of friends.

If, after all this time, you don't know where I'm going, then I have to wonder whether the fault lies with my writing, or with your comprehension.

My argument is rather simple and has never been successfully refuted. The period of adolescence is relatively short in comparison to that of adulthood. Yet, it is, in many ways the more important of the two because it provides the foundation for adulthood which usually lasts ten to fifteen times longer. Events during one's adolescence determine to a very great extent the degree of success or failure one will experience as an adult.

Adolescence is the final period of learning, or training, if you will, to become an adult. Those adolescents who rely on the skills, knowledge, wisdom, and efforts of qualified adults to teach and train them stand the best chance of leading happy, productive, useful lives as adults. Those adolescents who choose to be self taught, or to learn from other adolescents who are in the same boat as they, may sometimes succeed, however, as adults, they crowd out everyone else in prisons, graveyards, welfare lines, and unemployment offices. Since the military has raised its standards, even that haven is no longer available to feed, clothe and shelter them.

The pregnant teenager, the high school dropout, the gang member, the doper. These are the the kids who, rather than enjoying life to its fullest, even at their tender age, see instead only its misery. These are also, in the main, the kids who have either accidentally, or purposefully left the adolescent mainstream.

I find great pleasure in paraphrasing the words of successful persons. Winston Churchill is a favorite. Replacing just two words in one of his most famous quotes seems quite appropos for this discussion. Here goes.

Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried. -Winston Churchill

Mainstreaming is the worst form of preparation for adulthood except for all those others that have been tried. - Fantasea

 

[mixedmedia]

If, after all this time, you don't know where I'm going, then I have to wonder whether the fault lies with my writing, or with your comprehension.

My argument is rather simple and has never been successfully refuted. The period of adolescence is relatively short in comparison to that of adulthood. Yet, it is, in many ways the more important of the two because it provides the foundation for adulthood which usually lasts ten to fifteen times longer. Events during one's adolescence determine to a very great extent the degree of success or failure one will experience as an adult.

Okay, it's a little clearer now although you are making a much broader statement on adolescence than I thought we were concentrating on: namely appearance.

Truthfully I think you speak a little too broadly.
What evidence do you have that what clothing one wears or hair color a young person has affects their success or failure as an adult?
Where is the evidence that our prisons and welfare systems are filling up with former punk/alternative/goth kids?
Where is the evidence that rebellion is inherently bad for a young person's development? (After all, where would Americans be without it?)

You are biased against them, because you don't like the way they look - plain & simple. There are no studies to suggest that these kids are throwing away their lives by wearing clothes you find to be outlandish. A person is capable of learning life's lessons (or not learning them) regardless of what they wear. And I believe the facts would bear me out.

Being a child of the punk age myself ('70s, early '80s) I can say from experience that it was fun, nobody got hurt and as I grew older & my life busier, the practicality of a simpler appearance became more and more attractive. I never suffered or lost over my appearance and most kids don't. If you can't accept them, just ignore them.

I would love to see some studies on these issues if anyone knows of any. I would like to see comparisons of alcohol & drug use, teen sex, crime, violence and other teen ills that will show a demarcation between those kids that are into alternative lifestyles and those that are "normal." Cause truthfully I think you will find the results to be the opposite of what you purport. Certainly from surface observation I would say that to be true.

 

[Fantasea]

Okay, it's a little clearer now although you are making a much broader statement on adolescence than I thought we were concentrating on: namely appearance.

Truthfully I think you speak a little too broadly.
What evidence do you have that what clothing one wears or hair color a young person has affects their success or failure as an adult?

Appearance during adolescence is one of the primary indicators of future accpmplishment. If one watched the 'parade' of students entering a school and divided them into two groups, based solely on apparance, one would find that their scholastic and athletic attributes closely matched their looks. If you need confirmation of this, speak to a few teachers.

Where is the evidence that our prisons and welfare systems are filling up with former punk/alternative/goth kids?
Where is the evidence that rebellion is inherently bad for a young person's development? (After all, where would Americans be without it?)

If you need confirmation of this, speak to a few cops, parole officers, and welfare workers.

You are biased against them, because you don't like the way they look - plain & simple. There are no studies to suggest that these kids are throwing away their lives by wearing clothes you find to be outlandish. A person is capable of learning life's lessons (or not learning them) regardless of what they wear. And I believe the facts would bear me out.

My bias stems from the fact that throughout their lifeime, I can look forward to their being a drain on the system and increasing my tax load.

Being a child of the punk age myself ('70s, early '80s) I can say from experience that it was fun, nobody got hurt and as I grew older & my life busier, the practicality of a simpler appearance became more and more attractive. I never suffered or lost over my appearance and most kids don't.

I question whether your thirty-five year old experience is relevant, except to say that as the world becomes increasingly technologically sophisticated, the gulf between the two groups continues to widen.

If you can't accept them, just ignore them.

And, if I ignore them, will they go away?

I would love to see some studies on these issues if anyone knows of any. I would like to see comparisons of alcohol & drug use, teen sex, crime, violence and other teen ills that will show a demarcation between those kids that are into alternative lifestyles and those that are "normal."

Seek and ye shall find. For starters, do a 'google' search on one of those 'descriptors'. You'll be exposed to reams of information. Just wade in and learn what you would like to know.

Cause truthfully I think you will find the results to be the opposite of what you purport. Certainly from surface observation I would say that to be true.

When your thoughts are confirmed, one way or the other, perhaps you will report back with your findings.

Thus far, you question everything, yet refute nothing.

 

[mixedmedia]

Appearance during adolescence is one of the primary indicators of future accpmplishment. If one watched the 'parade' of students entering a school and divided them into two groups, based solely on apparance, one would find that their scholastic and athletic attributes closely matched their looks. If you need confirmation of this, speak to a few teachers.



If you need confirmation of this, speak to a few cops, parole officers, and welfare workers.


My bias stems from the fact that throughout their lifeime, I can look forward to their being a drain on the system and increasing my tax load.

I question whether your thirty-five year old experience is relevant, except to say that as the world becomes increasingly technologically sophisticated, the gulf between the two groups continues to widen.


And, if I ignore them, will they go away?

Seek and ye shall find. For starters, do a 'google' search on one of those 'descriptors'. You'll be exposed to reams of information. Just wade in and learn what you would like to know.


When your thoughts are confirmed, one way or the other, perhaps you will report back with your findings.

Thus far, you question everything, yet refute nothing.

You are the one purporting half-cocked personal opinions as universal facts. You do some research and prove to me that kids wearing punk clothes costs you a goddamn red cent, okay? And don't even bother sending me "case studies" & "research" goobledy-gook by religious organizations or neo-fascist "thinktanks." I would like to see secular, non-partisan data proving the fact that a child wearing punk clothes has more of a tendency to end up in prison or on the public dole. I suspect you'll find nothing because there isn't enough substance to the argument to have ever merited a study. Don't think punk kids get jobs? Don't think they go to college? You must live a very sheltered and isolated life to be under that impression.

Maybe though we can agree on some alarming trends among our youth today. They don't read. They aren't encouraged towards independent thought. I have met kids in high school who don't know who Mark Twain was. (Not "Wasn't he that guy who that wrote that book...." I mean never heard of him.) Kids don't have the patience to sit through anything without the frantic pace of an MTV video. Kids couldn't tell you whether Rembrandt was a writer or a composer. Whether Mesopotamia is person, place or thing. Value has no relation to anything other than money. The video games they play are very disturbingly & realistically violent (including the military games created w/ military consultation - I think it is obscene to promote the "glamour" of war, & violence in general, to our young people this way). I could go on and on but, fortunately for us all, I have to go cook supper.

There's plenty of matters to worry about when it comes to our kids. I think that what they wear is just about the least of them. Therefore I think I have said all I can possibly say about the matter. I do take heart, though, that as long as there are narrow-minded authoritarians out there with exacting codes regarding acceptable dress & experience for our youth, rebellion will remain healthy & strong. Thanks for that, Fanatsea.

 

[Hoot]

Hope everyone had a nice time over the holidays?

School uniforms are a non-issue for me...I know...then why am I butting in here? LOL

I still contend that school is the "job" of these kids.

You have a job, you're required to wear some sort of uniform...throughout life.

Don't like the job?

Then quit...no one can force you to finish High School. We have dropouts everyday.

If you want that HS diploma, and the school district..school board..PTA....require uniforms...then shutup and wear the uniform...you'll live. It's not the end of the world.

Sheesh...at this rate, I'm beginning to think requiring school uniforms at all school functions...football/basketball games would be a good idea!

How about school uniforms at the Senior prom? LOL!

Hoot

 

[Fantasea]

You are the one purporting half-cocked personal opinions as universal facts. You do some research and prove to me that kids wearing punk clothes costs you a goddamn red cent, okay? And don't even bother sending me "case studies" & "research" goobledy-gook by religious organizations or neo-fascist "thinktanks." I would like to see secular, non-partisan data proving the fact that a child wearing punk clothes has more of a tendency to end up in prison or on the public dole.

What better sources for secular, non-partisan, first hand, solid facts than the ones to which I referred you; cops, parole officers, and welfare workers. ?

Don't think punk kids get jobs?

With the unemployment rate as low as it is, employers are scraping the bottom of the barrel. Even at that, illegal aliens manage to get hired first.

Don't think they go to college?

Even with all of the affirmative action programs and the dumbed-down curricula, the drop out rate in the freshman year overall, and the first semester, in particuar, is astronomical. This goes for community colleges as well as four year schools.

Nothing being absolute, there are exceptions. However, the odds are heavily stacked against these kids. Check your local community college and find out for yourself.

Maybe though we can agree on some alarming trends among our youth today. They don't read. They aren't encouraged towards independent thought. I have met kids in high school who don't know who Mark Twain was. (Not "Wasn't he that guy who that wrote that book...." I mean never heard of him.) Kids don't have the patience to sit through anything without the frantic pace of an MTV video. Kids couldn't tell you whether Rembrandt was a writer or a composer. Whether Mesopotamia is person, place or thing. Value has no relation to anything other than money. The video games they play are very disturbingly & realistically violent (including the military games created w/ military consultation - I think it is obscene to promote the "glamour" of war, & violence in general, to our young people this way). I could go on and on but, fortunately for us all, I have to go cook supper.

If this is the way you truly feel, how can you blast me for complaining about the waste of tax dollars, especially mine? Name one other business, besides the public education system, that has turned out such a high percentage of defective products for the past forty years and gets more and more money poured into it every year.

There's plenty of matters to worry about when it comes to our kids. I think that what they wear is just about the least of them.

I agree with you to this extent. It's not the clothes, per se. The clothes, styles, makeup, piercings, tattoos, etc. are just badges of achievement; so that everyone who sees them will know who rules the roost. They indicate that the mother, and father, if there is one, are either unwilling or unable to exert the degree of parental control necessary to ensure an orderly and successful progression through adolescence.

I take heart, though, that as long as there are narrow-minded authoritarians out there with exacting codes regarding acceptable dress & experience for our youth, rebellion will remain healthy & strong. Thanks for that, Fanatsea.

Yes. And I'm sure that the police, parole officers, prison guards, welfare workers, as well as manufacturers and retailers who provide the clothes and stuff, MTV and record producers who provide the entertaining motivation, and assorted others who feed ravenously at this trough, look upon these tormented kids as a source of their own continued vocational stability and growing profits.

 

[out of the blue]

I personally like the idea of school uniforms, though I admit that they are not the panacea many believe they are. I am in favor of anything that eliminates in-school distractions and focuses kids' attention where it needs to be focused -- on academic learning.

Speaking of eliminating in-school distractions, I also believe that kids would better be able to focus on their academics if schools were segregated by sex. Now before some of you gasp and spill coffee all over yourselves, I am not advocating a return to the pre-civil rights era variety of segregation based on unfounded fear and racial bias. Rather, I see school segregation by sex as a logical step toward improving American kids' academic performance because the way we've been doing it for the past umpteen years has not been working.

 

[Fantasea]

I personally like the idea of school uniforms, though I admit that they are not the panacea many believe they are. I am in favor of anything that eliminates in-school distractions and focuses kids' attention where it needs to be focused -- on academic learning.

Speaking of eliminating in-school distractions, I also believe that kids would better be able to focus on their academics if schools were segregated by sex. Now before some of you gasp and spill coffee all over yourselves, I am not advocating a return to the pre-civil rights era variety of segregation based on unfounded fear and racial bias. Rather, I see school segregation by sex as a logical step toward improving American kids' academic performance because the way we've been doing it for the past umpteen years has not been working.

You are absolutely correct and, fortunately, although there is much opposition from the socialist-lib-dems who would prefer to see their constituents kept in ghetttos and on welfare so that the need for 'advocacy' will continue, there are people of compassion and vision who recognize that the public education system, as presently constituted, can never fulfill its mission.

The first step is to place students in an atmosphere in which learning, not stlyles and sexual posturing, is the primary focus. It is beginning to happen.

A little reading on the subject might be quite interesting.


http://www.al.com/opinion/mobileregister/index.ssf?/base/opinion/1104920234217800.xml

http://mathforum.org/epigone/ncsm.members/quunglermfli

http://www.portlandphoenix.com/archive/features/02/10/11/feat_sex.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0525/p11s02-legn.html

http://www.bxtimes.com/News/2004/0916/Boroughwide_News/054.html

http://ywlfoundation.org/

 

[Blue Hobgoblin]

I'm in school, and I enjoy seeing all the different ways my peers express themselves through their clothes, including me. Uniforms would ruin that form of self-expression.

 

[Fantasea]

I'm in school, and I enjoy seeing all the different ways my peers express themselves through their clothes, including me. Uniforms would ruin that form of self-expression.

Studies have shown that it is precisely the interest in 'fashion' that causes distractions which result in reduced classroom performance.

It would seem that the purpose in attending school is not to be distracted, but to do the best one can to excell in class.

 

[Gabo]

Hmmm.... the issue on school uniforms....

*gets out tally sheet*

*adds +1 to the "Issues we wouldn't have if the gov was Libertarian" column*


That's all the response this topic deserves.

 

[Jufarius87]

agreed if schools were privatized people could choose if they want to conform and possibly reap benefits by going to a school w/ a uniform code