Saudi Arabia recalls Danish ambassador

[Kandahar]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060130/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_prophet_drawings


Think that Arab Muslims only hate the countries who "oppress" them? Bullshit. This story shows that they are willing to go to great lengths to find any excuse to hate Western nations. Denmark is a completely harmless nation, but that hasn't stopped a pan-Arab boycott of its products.

 

[Australianlibertarian]

Yep, just shows you how pathetically intolerant, sections of the Muslim communitity are. This boycott of Danish products, is childish, just shows you the medieval and infantile attitudes of some people.

 

[Kandahar]

Libya just expelled the Danish ambassador too. Islamic Jihad and al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigades have warned Danes, Swedes, and Norweigians that they have 48 hours to leave Gaza.


Such a lovely society, isn't it?

 

[Inuyasha]

Denmark ought to expell all the Arabes and North Africans who are there making a living wage and enjoying the good life of the infidels. The Danes ought to send these people back to their countries where they will die of starvation. Oh and send their ambassadors back too.

 

[ShamMol]

Denmark ought to expell all the Arabes and North Africans who are there making a living wage and enjoying the good life of the infidels. The Danes ought to send these people back to their countries where they will die of starvation. Oh and send their ambassadors back too.

Umm...are you serious. If there is no communication then there will be no resolution to this conflict and that would only inflame the situation more (headscarves were the start of it a few years ago). That is not the right idea.

To show the face of Muhammad in any way is shirk (a bad thing that contradicts the religion) and it is considered one of the greatest sins in Islam. I have been looking at Muslim art as of late, and one thing you will never see is his face. To show it is to allow the worshiping of false idols (another shirk) and thus...well, you can see why Islamic nations would be upset at this action.

 

[Kandahar]

To show the face of Muhammad in any way is shirk (a bad thing that contradicts the religion) and it is considered one of the greatest sins in Islam. I have been looking at Muslim art as of late, and one thing you will never see is his face. To show it is to allow the worshiping of false idols (another shirk) and thus...well, you can see why Islamic nations would be upset at this action.

No, I can't.

Because of the actions of one newspaper, these idiots have called for a pan-Islamic boycott of Danish products and two nations have recalled their ambassadors...all because the Danish government refused to punish the cartoonist for exercising his freedom of the press. Palestinian terror groups have told Scandanavians to leave Gaza or be killed; I guess the irony of using terror to "protest" a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb, is lost on these guys. Now all we need is for the New York Times to publish these cartoons too. That will really stick it to these idiots.

As for it being "one of the greatest sins in Islam," too damn bad. Do Christians or Jews or Hindus or Buddhists fly into murderous rages when someone mocks their religion? No.

 

[ShamMol]

No, I can't.

Because of the actions of one newspaper, these idiots have called for a pan-Islamic boycott of Danish products and two nations have recalled their ambassadors...all because the Danish government refused to punish the cartoonist for exercising his freedom of the press. Palestinian terror groups have told Scandanavians to leave Gaza or be killed; I guess the irony of using terror to "protest" a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb, is lost on these guys. Now all we need is for the New York Times to publish these cartoons too. That will really stick it to these idiots.

As for it being "one of the greatest sins in Islam," too damn bad. Do Christians or Jews or Hindus or Buddhists fly into murderous rages when someone mocks their religion? No.

You obviously don't even want to understand Islam, but here is one thing that everyone can understand -- For most ordinary muslims, they cannot seperate their political, religious and ordinary lives from each other like we can. Religion is the influence on everything, and governs their every action, and unlike other religions, they listen to what is told to them.

They aren't idiots for insisting that the ideals of their religion be respected, and we see it with Christians too (just look to what happens whenever Christianity is supposedly under attack in America...the people come out in force--same thing here). They can do what they want, and frankly, they are trying something other than violence to get their point across. Would you rather they blow up the newspaper's headquaters? No, I would much rather have a boycott of products, thank you very much.

There aren't secular governments (aside from Turkey) in the Mid East and to assume taht they should be secular ebcause you have decided so makes you what you call them, an idiot who can't accept other people's views. This is peaceful protest and justified protest if you look at the shirk involved.

 

[Inuyasha]

Umm...are you serious. If there is no communication then there will be no resolution to this conflict and that would only inflame the situation more (headscarves were the start of it a few years ago). That is not the right idea.

To show the face of Muhammad in any way is shirk (a bad thing that contradicts the religion) and it is considered one of the greatest sins in Islam. I have been looking at Muslim art as of late, and one thing you will never see is his face. To show it is to allow the worshiping of false idols (another shirk) and thus...well, you can see why Islamic nations would be upset at this action.

Maybe I came on a bit strong but I live in Spain half of the year and I'll tell you that the average person in the street in many countries in Europe are sick of the Middle Easterners who come as guests whine and cry at each turn in the road and try to impose their way of life on the rest of us. Cinco de Mayo is a great holiday... in Mexico but to make it an official holiday in the US just because Mexicans come here is at best ridiculous. The Mexicans came because they wanted to not because people in the US begged them to. Same goes for the Muslims in Europe. If they disdain our customs and way of life they can stay at home where they can enjoy the full benefits of a Muslim theocratic state. I am not about to turn Spain into a Muslim state anymore than I am about to turn Saudi Arabia into a Catholic colony. In Spain and other Western nations there are mosques where these people can go to worship. In Spain alone there are at least 200.
HTTP://HTTP.sacristan.org/Islamic/travelogue1.HTML

How many Catholic or Protestant churches are there in Saudi Arabia?

I admit that some but few Muslims consider the feelings their host country. But not enough and their attitude toward the host country leaves much to be desired. Any failure to do this is fanaticism. I don't want Bin-Laden in my neighborhood nor do I want Pat Robertson there either. I have enough of a problem with the local fanatics. Do you see what I am saying?
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/95E243E9-E73F-4B2D-BF66-9DDBA3C9E960.htm

 

[ShamMol]

Maybe I came on a bit strong but I live in Spain half of the year and I'll tell you that the average person in the street in many countries in Europe are sick of the Middle Easterners who come as guests whine and cry at each turn in the road and try to impose their way of life on the rest of us. Cinco de Mayo is a great holiday... in Mexico but to make it an official holiday in the US just because Mexicans come here is at best ridiculous. The Mexicans came because they wanted to not because people in the US begged them to. Same goes for the Muslims in Europe. If they disdain our customs and way of life they can stay at home where they can enjoy the full benefits of a Muslim theocratic state. I am not about to turn Spain into a Muslim state anymore than I am about to turn Saudi Arabia into a Catholic colony. In Spain and other Western nations there are mosques where these people can go to worship. In Spain alone there are at least 200.
HTTP://HTTP.sacristan.org/Islamic/travelogue1.HTML/quote]
The point remains taht in Islam, you are not supposed to seperate the public and private sphere. You can't just say that religion doesn't influence your daily actions because then you would be committing sin against Allah. Basically, you are looking at it from a secularists point of view, when that view is technically not even allowed in Islam. You may be sick of it, but frankly it isn't going to change because that is what is required of a Muslim.

How many Catholic or Protestant churches are there in Saudi Arabia?

Frankly, I don't care because there aren't that many Catholics in Saudi Arabia. There are more Muslims in your country than Catholics or Christians in theirs (I would be willing to bet).

I admit that some but few Muslims consider the feelings their host country. But not enough and their attitude toward the host country leaves much to be desired. Any failure to do this is fanaticism. I don't want Bin-Laden in my neighborhood nor do I want Pat Robertson there either. I have enough of a problem with the local fanatics. Do you see what I am saying?
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/95E243E9-E73F-4B2D-BF66-9DDBA3C9E960.htm

I see waht you are saying, but there is a difference between what you are saying and reality. There are traditionalists in any religion, and they are the minority in Islam (something like 20% according to my textbook). They aren't the norm and it is usualyl just people trying to get by in the world who go to live in the other countries. The only thing that you can do to diminish the chance of extremism (traditionism) is to increase their economic opportunity--but of course the EU could care less about that, and frankly that would solve the vast majority of the problems.

 

[Kandahar]

You obviously don't even want to understand Islam, but here is one thing that everyone can understand -- For most ordinary muslims, they cannot seperate their political, religious and ordinary lives from each other like we can. Religion is the influence on everything, and governs their every action, and unlike other religions, they listen to what is told to them.

That's exactly the problem. They listen to what is told for them and indiscriminately hate anyone who disagrees with them on anything. Remember Salman Rushdie? Theo Van Gogh?

They aren't idiots for insisting that the ideals of their religion be respected, and we see it with Christians too (just look to what happens whenever Christianity is supposedly under attack in America...the people come out in force--same thing here).

Christian fundamentalists don't call for nationwide boycotts protesting freedom of the press, nor do they threaten all people of a certain nationality with terrorism. (And if you're going to find some loony counterexample, compare the relative number of Muslims who do this with Christians.)

They can do what they want, and frankly, they are trying something other than violence to get their point across. Would you rather they blow up the newspaper's headquaters? No, I would much rather have a boycott of products, thank you very much.

Several bomb threats HAVE been called in to the newspaper's headquarters. Terrorist groups have told Scandinavians to leave the Gaza Strip. Countries have recalled their ambassadors...all because of the actions of a PRIVATE NEWSPAPER.

Why are you defending this idiocy?

There aren't secular governments (aside from Turkey) in the Mid East and to assume taht they should be secular ebcause you have decided so makes you what you call them, an idiot who can't accept other people's views. This is peaceful protest and justified protest if you look at the shirk involved.

Peaceful protest my ass. What the hell is the Danish government supposed to do? Crack down on freedom of the press to placate these idiots? They did NOTHING wrong and now they are hated by the entire Arab world. Face it, these morons are looking for ANY reason to hate the rest of the world. "Oppression" or "occupation" are simply excuses, as this story proves.

 

[oldreliable67]

The point remains taht in Islam, you are not supposed to seperate the public and private sphere.

Then why would a devout Muslim immigrate to a secular state and then complain about something that is offensive to no one but Muslims? How about, stay in a theocratic state or accept your new homeland - that you chose of your own accord - for what it is ????

 

[ShamMol]

That's exactly the problem. They listen to what is told for them and indiscriminately hate anyone who disagrees with them on anything. Remember Salman Rushdie? Theo Van Gogh?

You cite what extremists do, not what ordinary Muslims do. That is completely wrong -- do I condemn Christians for teh acts of a few who go insane and blow up abortion clinics? Nope, I just realize that they are nut jobs, same as these people are.

Christian fundamentalists don't call for nationwide boycotts protesting freedom of the press, nor do they threaten all people of a certain nationality with terrorism. (And if you're going to find some loony counterexample, compare the relative number of Muslims who do this with Christians.)

But they do in some forms, not a national boycott, but boycotts non the less. This was shirk and they are within their right to protest that action peacefully--better than the alternative don't you think?

Several bomb threats HAVE been called in to the newspaper's headquarters. Terrorist groups have told Scandinavians to leave the Gaza Strip. Countries have recalled their ambassadors...all because of the actions of a PRIVATE NEWSPAPER.

Which was shirk. That is literally the most offensive thing you can do in Islam. If I shat all over a bible and published the photos, there would be bomb threats to me, I would like to presume.

Why are you defending this idiocy?

Because I actually can understand where they are coming from now thanks to taking a class. It is shirk and if they want to protest that, so be it. That isn't defending it, it is being pragmatic.

Peaceful protest my ass. What the hell is the Danish government supposed to do? Crack down on freedom of the press to placate these idiots? They did NOTHING wrong and now they are hated by the entire Arab world. Face it, these morons are looking for ANY reason to hate the rest of the world. "Oppression" or "occupation" are simply excuses, as this story proves.

Your ass eh? They did a lot wrong, they showed the prophet's face which is horredously bad. they aren't looking for any reason to hate, and it seems to be the other way around with you looking for any excuse to hate them for something that can best be described as peaceful protest.

 

[ShamMol]

Then why would a devout Muslim immigrate to a secular state and then complain about something that is offensive to no one but Muslims? How about, stay in a theocratic state or accept your new homeland - that you chose of your own accord - for what it is ????

Do we force our views on others...that is what it comes down to--FOR BOTH SIDES. You can't say that they are wrong for wanting to press their views on you when you are doing the exact same.

They can't seperate and since there is freedom of religion, they can't be forced to seperate the private and public spheres.

 

[oldreliable67]

Do we force our views on others...that is what it comes down to--FOR BOTH SIDES. You can't say that they are wrong for wanting to press their views on you when you are doing the exact same.

They can't seperate and since there is freedom of religion, they can't be forced to seperate the private and public spheres.

Thats not the point. The point is, that Muslims have immigrated to secular states with the complete foreknowledge that those states were secular. With secular states come responsibilities as citizens that are completely separate and apart from one's religion. The secular state is under no obligation to change its basic freedoms to accomodate a specific religion. A conflict between "church and state" as we know it is one thing and is a matter for the courts to resolve; this disagreement is quite another matter. Yes, IMO the Muslims are wrong for wanting to press their views on the state to which they immigrated.

Accept, adapt or tolerate, or don't immigrate to a secular state.

(Just realized: that kinda rhymes! Totally unintentional.)

 

[Inuyasha]

"You're a poet and don't know it" and i agree with what you say. I would not go to a Catholic country preaching Protestant fundamentalism either. It simply shows a lack of respect and concern for your hosts.

 

[ShamMol]

Thats not the point. The point is, that Muslims have immigrated to secular states with the complete foreknowledge that those states were secular. With secular states come responsibilities as citizens that are completely separate and apart from one's religion. The secular state is under no obligation to change its basic freedoms to accomodate a specific religion. A conflict between "church and state" as we know it is one thing and is a matter for the courts to resolve; this disagreement is quite another matter. Yes, IMO the Muslims are wrong for wanting to press their views on the state to which they immigrated.

Accept, adapt or tolerate, or don't immigrate to a secular state.

(Just realized: that kinda rhymes! Totally unintentional.)

What about those who did not choose to immigrate and were born Muslim there. Do you expect them to just leave their home country and go to a place where they have never been before in the Middle East?

And on that note, is it wrong for a state in Middle East to practice religious intolerance and would you accept it if you lived there (or born a citizen there)?

 

[lrb]

The danish newspaper should have never drawn the pictures of mohamed(peace be upon him). if they did cartoons of muslim's no one would have reacted. It's the same everywhere if someone came and insulted me badly i wouldn't really be bothered but if they insulted my father or mother etc. i would rellly be annoyed because what have they done to them. why should a newspaper insult mohamed (peace be upon him) what has he done to them they don't know him they don't know anything about him. A boycott is the best the islamic states can do they are annoyed so they boycott dansih products this way the government's economy will go down and they will be forced to make new laws that sate no one should insult a religion

 

[Kandahar]

You cite what extremists do, not what ordinary Muslims do. That is completely wrong -- do I condemn Christians for teh acts of a few who go insane and blow up abortion clinics? Nope, I just realize that they are nut jobs, same as these people are.

As I said in my last post which you chose to ignore, let's compare the number of Christians who "go insane and blow up abortion clinics" with the number of Muslims who do analogous things. In the United States as a whole and even among Christian fundamentalists, abortion terrorists are reviled.

But they do in some forms, not a national boycott, but boycotts non the less.

If the New York Times prints something that Pat Robertson finds offensive, does he call for all Americans to stop buying ALL American products and launch terror attacks on innocent Americans? Even if he did, would anyone listen or would they just laugh at him?

This was shirk and they are within their right to protest that action peacefully--better than the alternative don't you think?

You have yet to explain how threatening the lives of innocent people is a "peaceful protest."

Which was shirk. That is literally the most offensive thing you can do in Islam. If I shat all over a bible and published the photos, there would be bomb threats to me, I would like to presume.

And I would presume that there would NOT be bomb threats against you, if you did that. People have done similar things in art exhibits all over the United States. While there has been some outrage from Christian groups, there hasn't been any violence. The scope of those protests was mainly limited to writing letters to the exhibitor demanding that the exhibit be removed.

Because I actually can understand where they are coming from now thanks to taking a class. It is shirk and if they want to protest that, so be it. That isn't defending it, it is being pragmatic.

Yeah they have the "right" to protest freedom of the press, just like the neo-Nazis have the right to march through a Jewish neighborhood. That misses the point of this story entirely.

Your ass eh? They did a lot wrong, they showed the prophet's face which is horredously bad.

Really? The Danish government did that? Every business in Denmark signed on?

I just LOVE how some people are so quick to remind us that not ALL Muslims or Muslim governments support terrorism...they're just a few bad apples, we're told. Then at the same time you support collective punishment against an entire country for the actions of ONE NEWSPAPER which the government truly DIDN'T have any control over.

Could it be knee-jerk anti-Western racism? Yep.

they aren't looking for any reason to hate, and it seems to be the other way around with you looking for any excuse to hate them for something that can best be described as peaceful protest.

What exactly is the purpose of these "peaceful protests" (that include terror threats and official diplomatic action)? What is their goal? What could the Danish government possibly do to placate these idiots, other than cracking down on freedom of the press? They've already apologized (which is more than they should have done), yet the threats/boycotts/protests continue to escalate.

 

[Inuyasha]

What about those who did not choose to immigrate and were born Muslim there. Do you expect them to just leave their home country and go to a place where they have never been before in the Middle East?

Why not? Jews did it. If you religion is more important than the country that you live in then you should immigrate to a region where you will be more confortable and where you beliefs are accepted. The same is true of politics. If you don't like the way the Danes run their country then don't go there and b¡tch about it, just stay home.

 

[cherokee]

What this boils down to is very simple.

If you move from your country A to country B then you have to obey the laws of country B.

If living in country A its not ok to show a pic of whoever then so be it.

But if in country B its ok then you have to deal with it or move out.

It makes NO difference if you believe it to be a sin or not..

 

[Inuyasha]

What this boils down to is very simple.

If you move from your country A to country B then you have to obey the laws of country B.

If living in country A its not ok to show a pic of whoever then so be it.

But if in country B its ok then you have to deal with it or move out.

It makes NO difference if you believe it to be a sin or not..

Bingo!!!! Clear as spring water.

 

[Kandahar]

Woohoo! French, German, Spanish, Italian, and Dutch newspapers all printed the cartoons today! Yay for freedom of the press. Eat it, radical Islamists.

Anyone here have a blog? How about some American solidarity for freedom of the press?

 

[cherokee]

Bingo!!!! Clear as spring water.

Thank you.

When my wife and I travel overseas we obey the laws of whatever country we are in.
To us its just respect.

 

[oldreliable67]

Yes. What Cherokee said.

 

[Kandahar]

This sums it up pretty well:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-2_1_06_MM.html