Sane people's nervousness over the relaxed CDC guidelines is understandable.

[Noodlegawd]

584,487. That is how many Americans we have lost to COVID-19. At least 40% of those deaths were easily preventable, but the pandemic struck us when we had a flagrantly anti-science, anti-truth president, and a loud minority of citizens who were willing to literally jump off a cliff for him if so ordered. We've had to deal with this level of toxic selfishness for over a year now, and we have every right to be sick and tired of it.

Those who had to continue to work in person during lockdown had to hope that today wasn't the day that they got this life-threatening disease. For a hot minute, we as a country decided to do what we needed to do to stay safe, even if it was hard. But then, the selfishness, hubris, and freedumb fetish kicked back in. A loud minority of Americans proved that they were not "pro-life" despite their howling to the contrary.

Here's the thing about trauma: It doesn't end when the source of abuse ends. Just because trump is no longer president doesn't mean that we don't continue to have bad memories of him. Just because some of us are vaccinated doesn't mean we don't remember what it's like to have to navigate the minefield of covidiots.

So it's perfectly normal when sane people are nervous over the new, relaxed CDC guidelines on COVID-19. It's perfectly normal to keep an eye on the horrible situation in India and recognize that a virulent mutation could cause a problem here. Your freedumb fetish does not make trauma disappear. In fact it makes us distrust you even more.

It's understandable, but not really rational. It's starting to appear that allowing people to decide whether to wear masks didn't make a dramatic difference in states that made that decision, and anyone who is still nervous about it is perfectly free to continue double masking and social distancing. On top of that, it's getting pretty easy to get actual N95 masks, so people who are really worried can get that extra protection.

 

[Phys251]

584,487. That is how many Americans we have lost to COVID-19. At least 40% of those deaths were easily preventable, but the pandemic struck us when we had a flagrantly anti-science, anti-truth president, and a loud minority of citizens who were willing to literally jump off a cliff for him if so ordered. We've had to deal with this level of toxic selfishness for over a year now, and we have every right to be sick and tired of it.

Learn to use quote tags. You didn't say that. I did.

Also, learn to read the embedded links before spewing crap:

I saw an extreme dynamic response to COVID in Europe about a year ago and all the forced lockdowns did nothing to prevent high rates of exposure and to make matters worse did nothing to prevent the second wave.

Such as that. Science deniers, whom you enable, have no problem with millions of people who have died from COVID-19. All they care about is freedumb.

 

[Phys251]

It's understandable, but not really rational.

Not a good start, but please, proceed.

It's starting to appear that allowing people to decide whether to wear masks didn't make a dramatic difference in states that made that decision, and anyone who is still nervous about it is perfectly free to continue double masking and social distancing.

As long as that is done with ZERO shaming by the anti-mask crowd. To be very clear, I am talking about the anti-maskers during the time that we absolutely needed to mask up, yet those entitled idiots didn't.

On top of that, it's getting pretty easy to get actual N95 masks, so people who are really worried can get that extra protection.

One N95 or a double mask works well.

 

[Phys251]

On DP it's called the "Cardinal Approach" for reasons you'll eventually discover.

And there it is. The personal attack. Right after making a false claim of a personal attack.

Keep it up. That's all your side has left at this point.

 

[COTO]

584,487. That is how many Americans we have lost to COVID-19. At least 40% of those deaths were easily preventable, but the pandemic struck us when we had a flagrantly anti-science, anti-truth president, and a loud minority of citizens who were willing to literally jump off a cliff for him if so ordered. We've had to deal with this level of toxic selfishness for over a year now, and we have every right to be sick and tired of it.

I saw an extreme dynamic response to COVID in Europe about a year ago and all the forced lockdowns did nothing to prevent high rates of exposure and to make matters worse did nothing to prevent the second wave.

Viruses are opportunistic obligate intracellular parasites who don’t understand or care about legislation.

Legislation was however effective in destroying millions of jobs mostly in small business which could not afford the lockdowns allowing big businesses to get even bigger.

Ironic, huh?

These are cases per million and deaths per million.

Note where the US is in the rankings.

10th in cases per million and 18 in deaths per million.

It helps to understand proportions.

From the link in reply #2:

In a paper [Prof. Doug Allen] published in April, in which he compiled his findings based on a review of over 80 papers on the effects of lockdowns around the world, Allen concluded that lockdowns may be one of “the greatest peacetime policy failures in Canada’s history.”​

​

[...]​

​

Allen’s own cost-benefit analysis is based on the calculation of “life-years saved,” which determines “how many years of lost life will have been caused by the various harms of lockdowns versus how many years of lost life were saved by lockdowns.”​

​

Based on his lost-life calculation, lockdown measures have caused 282 times more harm than benefit to Canadian society over the long term, or 282 times more life years lost than saved.​

​

Furthermore, “The limited effectiveness of lockdowns explains why, after one year, the unconditional cumulative deaths per million, and the pattern of daily deaths per million, is not negatively correlated with the stringency of lockdown across countries,” writes Allen. In other words, in his assessment, heavy lockdowns do not meaningfully reduce the number of deaths in the areas where they are implemented, when compared to areas where lockdowns were not implemented or as stringent.​

The science about the detrimental impact lockdowns couldn't be clearer. Unfortunately you can't dynamite the idea out of some people's minds that the lockdowns were necessary and beneficial. And this is to say nothing about their impact on civil liberties and ushering in the beginnings of dystopian nightmares like social credit systems--which is frankly an even bigger concern than the immediate damage they've caused.

 

[Sagittarius83]

Learn to use quote tags. You didn't say that. I did.

Also, learn to read the embedded links before spewing crap:



Such as that. Science deniers, whom you enable, have no problem with millions of people who have died from COVID-19. All they care about is freedumb.

I am simply supplying the undisputed data from worldometer.

I was in the eye of the storm here in Europe. I caught COVID and survived with no after effects.

The measures you say should have been employed in the States were tried here and did not work.

 

[COTO]

And there it is. The personal attack. Right after making a false claim of a personal attack.

Keep it up. That's all your side has left at this point.

Your lack of debate skills very much deserve to be attacked, sir.

@woodsman has tried twice in good faith to engage you on a point of contention in the OP, and--as is your maddening custom--you can't be bothered to acknowledge his rebuttal let alone defend your argument.

Hence attacks on your person--more specifically, your contempt for any actual debate--is both what you deserve and what you reap.

 

[Phys251]

Your lack of debate skills very much deserve to be attacked, sir.

@woodsman has tried twice in good faith to engage you on a point of contention in the OP, and--as is your maddening custom--you can't be bothered to acknowledge his rebuttal let alone defend your argument.

Hence attacks on your person--more specifically, your contempt for any actual debate--is both what you deserve and what you reap.

A trump supporter has provided me with the heartiest laugh I've had all day. Thank you sir, may I have another!

 

[Phys251]

Learn to use quote tags. You didn't say that. I did.

I am simply supplying the undisputed data from worldometer.

I was in the eye of the storm here in Europe. I caught COVID and survived with no after effects.

The measures you say should have been employed in the States were tried here and did not work.

You are confusing your layperson's knowledge of what happened with the scientific expertise of how we should have managed this crisis.

New Zealand, for one, did it right. The UK did not. And don't even try the mental gymnastics with how the UK's demographics or whatever made them more vulnerable, cause I can play that little game.

 

[Sagittarius83]

A trump supporter has provided me with the heartiest laugh I've had all day. Thank you sir, may I have another!

Trump is no longer your president.
Living in the past is never profitable.

 

[Phys251]

Trump is no longer your president.
Living in the past is never profitable.

And that is why you fail. You choose to deny history, and thus you condemn yourself to repeat it.

Educate yourself and then get back to me. Until then, I'll let you have the last word.

P.S. Get the damn quote tags right.

 

[Sagittarius83]

You are confusing your layperson's knowledge of what happened with the scientific expertise of how we should have managed this crisis.

New Zealand, for one, did it right. The UK did not. And don't even try the mental gymnastics with how the UK's demographics or whatever made them more vulnerable, cause I can play that little game.

The proof is in the pudding.
Belgium had intense lockdowns and the Netherlands did not but the rates of COVID were much larger in Belgium.
Japan shut virtually nothing down and had very low rates.
I know you are frightened but one must always keep their head.
And don’t underestimate what it was like for me as a father to have to reassure my little daughter that she was not going to die from covid.
There is a mass psychological cost as well.
By the way I was trained as a scientist and that was what paid my bills.
What is your training?
You are assuming that science speaks with one large harmonious voice and it does not on this COVID matter.
Japanese scientists, Swedish scientists, Italian scientists for example came to different conclusions.

 

[Sagittarius83]

And that is why you fail. You choose to deny history, and thus you condemn yourself to repeat it.

Educate yourself and then get back to me. Until then, I'll let you have the last word.

P.S. Get the damn quote tags right.

Ok I see you are super angry but deflection is never helpful.

I merely pointed out that the countries in Europe with the tightest lockdowns saw no success in containing either the first or second wave of this disease.

Tell me what you think should be done now that Trump is completely out of power.

For example, should people be forced to be vaccinated? If they refuse what should be the penalty?

The past is immutable so what now?

 

[COTO]

A trump supporter has provided me with the heartiest laugh I've had all day. Thank you sir, may I have another!

I am not, nor have I ever been, a "Trump supporter". The strongest thing that can be said about my "support" for the man is that I agreed with a handful of his policy decisions over his four year tenure. If this makes me a "Trump supporter", I'm also a "Biden supporter", an "Obama supporter", and even a "Phys251 supporter", since I've agreed with your positions on just as many occasions.

I furthermore protest the lie that "COTO has no problem with nearly 600,000 dead Americans." This is the third time you've repeated it.

You first accused me in this thread (on double-masking) after I stated, "The deaths caused by COVID are a problem, but we needn't be distressed by them, and our distress and anxiety can in fact do us considerable harm." and "I worry a lot more about cancer and heart disease than I do about COVID, but still not to the extent that the statistics distress me. Moreover, my worry is productive in this case. It motivates me to eat better foods, exercise more, avoid sugar, etc."

No reasonable person, including yourself, could construe either remark as my having "no problem with" COVID deaths.

In this thread you're claiming to be suffering "trauma" as a consequence of opposition to the COVID lockdowns and "abuse" during Pres. Trump's tenure, which serves as a prime example of my claim that "our distress and anxiety can in fact do us considerable harm". One finds oneself protesting a CDC relaxation of guidelines, having ignored no fewer than five separate posts documenting the worldwide failure of lockdown policy. Rather than accepting the evidence, providing counterfactuals, or even deferring to the CDC, you're invoking Trump-inspired "trauma" (your own words) as a justification for your persistent anxiety.

The lockdowns were bad policy. Not everyone who thinks so is a "Trump supporter". And believe it or not, even those of us who value "freedumbs"--otherwise known as fundamental liberties--do also care about 600,000 dead Americans.

I apologize for the personal attack in #23. Your dismissive reply to woodsman in #18 irritated me and I spoke rashly. I strongly feel that you owe him a proper answer to his question, seeing as this is your thread.

 

[ElChupacabra]

That's why death rates in NJ are so high.

Odd. California has even more restrictive policies and their rates are really low. Are you sure it's that simple?

 

[noonereal]

584,487. That is how many Americans we have lost to COVID-19. At least 40% of those deaths were easily preventable, but the pandemic struck us when we had a flagrantly anti-science, anti-truth president, and a loud minority of citizens who were willing to literally jump off a cliff for him if so ordered. We've had to deal with this level of toxic selfishness for over a year now, and we have every right to be sick and tired of it.

Those who had to continue to work in person during lockdown had to hope that today wasn't the day that they got this life-threatening disease. For a hot minute, we as a country decided to do what we needed to do to stay safe, even if it was hard. But then, the selfishness, hubris, and freedumb fetish kicked back in. A loud minority of Americans proved that they were not "pro-life" despite their howling to the contrary.

Here's the thing about trauma: It doesn't end when the source of abuse ends. Just because trump is no longer president doesn't mean that we don't continue to have bad memories of him. Just because some of us are vaccinated doesn't mean we don't remember what it's like to have to navigate the minefield of covidiots.

So it's perfectly normal when sane people are nervous over the new, relaxed CDC guidelines on COVID-19. It's perfectly normal to keep an eye on the horrible situation in India and recognize that a virulent mutation could cause a problem here. Your freedumb fetish does not make trauma disappear. In fact it makes us distrust you even more.

Good post.

That said, people are treating this like the pandemic is over. This is VERY dangerous.
We will see an increase in infections as a result of this bone head move by the CDC. It sent the wrong message to teh wrong people.

 

[noonereal]

documenting the worldwide failure of lockdown policy.

OMFG

Lockdowns do not stop the spread of Covid significatly?

I pray you are not serious.

 

[joko104]

Good post.

That said, people are treating this like the pandemic is over. This is VERY dangerous.
We will see an increase in infections as a result of this bone head move by the CDC. It sent the wrong message to teh wrong people.

Yeah, only idiots listen to the CDC. At least you can't claim people should "follow the advice of the scientists." LOL

 

[noonereal]

Yeah, only idiots listen to the CDC.

I could not disagree more.

At least you can't claim people should "follow the advice of the scientists."

This IS my complaint.

Trumpists will not listen to the CDC. They will unmask without being vaccinated.

 

[joko104]

I could not disagree more.

This IS my complaint.

Trumpists will not listen to the CDC. They will unmask without being vaccinated.

Yeah, that's me for sure.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

584,487. That is how many Americans we have lost to COVID-19. At least 40% of those deaths were easily preventable, but the pandemic struck us when we had a flagrantly anti-science, anti-truth president, and a loud minority of citizens who were willing to literally jump off a cliff for him if so ordered. We've had to deal with this level of toxic selfishness for over a year now, and we have every right to be sick and tired of it.

Those who had to continue to work in person during lockdown had to hope that today wasn't the day that they got this life-threatening disease. For a hot minute, we as a country decided to do what we needed to do to stay safe, even if it was hard. But then, the selfishness, hubris, and freedumb fetish kicked back in. A loud minority of Americans proved that they were not "pro-life" despite their howling to the contrary.

Here's the thing about trauma: It doesn't end when the source of abuse ends. Just because trump is no longer president doesn't mean that we don't continue to have bad memories of him. Just because some of us are vaccinated doesn't mean we don't remember what it's like to have to navigate the minefield of covidiots.

So it's perfectly normal when sane people are nervous over the new, relaxed CDC guidelines on COVID-19. It's perfectly normal to keep an eye on the horrible situation in India and recognize that a virulent mutation could cause a problem here. Your freedumb fetish does not make trauma disappear. In fact it makes us distrust you even more.

The thing that will calm people's pandemic-nerves is when the CDC releases their findings on sterilizing immunity.
If the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines make it possible for a vaccinated person with COVID to carry an extremely low viral load, that's going to be considered good enough.
If the viral load is undetectable, that is sterilizing immunity.
Same goes for the J&J shot, if it provides any level of SI or tamps down viral loads to miniscule amounts, vaccinated persons can pretty much leave the masks in their pockets.

But we're not there yet, we're getting close, but not quite.
Wait a few more weeks.

 

[noonereal]

Yeah, that's me for sure.

I admit, this Trumpist disrespect of your fellow countrymen enrages.

You have accomplished you mission here.

Many will die because of this. Be happy, you are determined to do your part.

 

[Good4Nothin]

584,487. That is how many Americans we have lost to COVID-19. At least 40% of those deaths were easily preventable, but the pandemic struck us when we had a flagrantly anti-science, anti-truth president, and a loud minority of citizens who were willing to literally jump off a cliff for him if so ordered. We've had to deal with this level of toxic selfishness for over a year now, and we have every right to be sick and tired of it.

Those who had to continue to work in person during lockdown had to hope that today wasn't the day that they got this life-threatening disease. For a hot minute, we as a country decided to do what we needed to do to stay safe, even if it was hard. But then, the selfishness, hubris, and freedumb fetish kicked back in. A loud minority of Americans proved that they were not "pro-life" despite their howling to the contrary.

Here's the thing about trauma: It doesn't end when the source of abuse ends. Just because trump is no longer president doesn't mean that we don't continue to have bad memories of him. Just because some of us are vaccinated doesn't mean we don't remember what it's like to have to navigate the minefield of covidiots.

So it's perfectly normal when sane people are nervous over the new, relaxed CDC guidelines on COVID-19. It's perfectly normal to keep an eye on the horrible situation in India and recognize that a virulent mutation could cause a problem here. Your freedumb fetish does not make trauma disappear. In fact it makes us distrust you even more.

One of the tribal narratives, word for word.

 

[Good4Nothin]

I'll say. There might be one or two small businesses still left standing.

Two will grow to four. Four to eight. Eventually thousands or even tens of thousands might come back. Give it a decade and and we'll be swamped by production and an actual economy again.

Not something I'm willing to risk. Let's keep things locked down tight until we're certain 100% of small business are dead and gone.

Yes, and let's make sure no remembers that outdated thing we used to call freedom.

 

[CLAX1911]

584,487. That is how many Americans we have lost to COVID-19. At least 40% of those deaths were easily preventable, but the pandemic struck us when we had a flagrantly anti-science, anti-truth president, and a loud minority of citizens who were willing to literally jump off a cliff for him if so ordered. We've had to deal with this level of toxic selfishness for over a year now, and we have every right to be sick and tired of it.

Those who had to continue to work in person during lockdown had to hope that today wasn't the day that they got this life-threatening disease. For a hot minute, we as a country decided to do what we needed to do to stay safe, even if it was hard. But then, the selfishness, hubris, and freedumb fetish kicked back in. A loud minority of Americans proved that they were not "pro-life" despite their howling to the contrary.

Here's the thing about trauma: It doesn't end when the source of abuse ends. Just because trump is no longer president doesn't mean that we don't continue to have bad memories of him. Just because some of us are vaccinated doesn't mean we don't remember what it's like to have to navigate the minefield of covidiots.

So it's perfectly normal when sane people are nervous over the new, relaxed CDC guidelines on COVID-19. It's perfectly normal to keep an eye on the horrible situation in India and recognize that a virulent mutation could cause a problem here. Your freedumb fetish does not make trauma disappear. In fact it makes us distrust you even more.

Fair enough, all of you "sane" people put on your tin foil hats...I mean masks and hide for eternity from the big scary world.