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Sanders: Where Do We Go From Here?

Threegoofs said:
Why not take away all government participation in the education system, instead of forcing the socialist system on everybody from K-12? Why should everybody get free schooling?

See what I did there?

Higher education is worthwhile to provide to the population at large. I'm strongly in favor of having cheap/free community colleges.
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Yet after school those poor people, what if they are in a place where they cannot afford a house? Or food? Why should we risk that, why should they, in a society as rich as ours, have to pay for a house, or food? Why? What if they make a bad choice? This way they don't have to worry, or fear, or feel left out of the American DREAM! Government is the only true choice for freedom!
 
JasperL said:
Right, and FREE roads!! and Free parks!! and Free police and fire!! Free Libraries!!! Socialism!!!

More seriously, yes, of course you spread the payments to everyone, same as K-12. Should we defund public education entirely and make all poor people go into debt to send their children to 1st grade through HS? If you're not for that, then on what principle are you opposed to 'free' college?



The incidence of taxes - who bears the actual economic burden - depends. Could be owners/shareholders through lower profits, employees/executives through lower wages/bonuses, and/OR customers through higher prices.
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Someone doesn't know what socialism is. Or how taxes work. Go back to school.
 
Threegoofs said:
Why not take away all government participation in the education system, instead of forcing the socialist system on everybody from K-12? Why should everybody get free schooling?

See what I did there?

Higher education is worthwhile to provide to the population at large. I'm strongly in favor of having cheap/free community colleges.
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As a spending priority over what? Many are strongly in favor of lots of different things funded by taxation (of others?) yet seem to refuse to set priorities so they will demand ever increasing taxation (of others?) instead.
 
Renae said:
Someone doesn't know what socialism is. Or how taxes work. Go back to school.
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That's not an answer to my questions

And I have a BA in Econ and MAcc with a tax concentration, am a CPA, and do taxes for a living, so I don't need any more schooling to understand taxes, economic incidence, etc. Why don't you attempt to explain what I got wrong. Should be entertaining!
 
Renae said:
Yet after school those poor people, what if they are in a place where they cannot afford a house? Or food? Why should we risk that, why should they, in a society as rich as ours, have to pay for a house, or food? Why? What if they make a bad choice? This way they don't have to worry, or fear, or feel left out of the American DREAM! Government is the only true choice for freedom!
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It's funny to see you avoid what is a very simple question. If 'free' college is such an absurd idea, surely you oppose public education of any kind, right? Let the poor home school their kids - should work out fine! And if not, then the kids should have chosen better parents!!
 
JasperL said:
It's funny to see you avoid what is a very simple question. If 'free' college is such an absurd idea, surely you oppose public education of any kind, right? Let the poor home school their kids - should work out fine! And if not, then the kids should have chosen better parents!!
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Why do you stop at education?
 
Helix said:
like i said, back then, you would have opposed sending everyone to high school.
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irrelevant and conjecture so meaningless.


i've noticed one common thread with those who try the "i won, you lost" tactic : they usually didn't. i could swamp you with the mountain of charts and data that you have ignored in every other thread, but nah. not wasting my Saturday on that. have a good one.
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You mean the charts that have already been refuted time and time again by articles from non-bias sources?
ok you keep that up and your pretending.


SOrry I don't want LCD healthcare I value the health of my family more than that.
 
Celebrity said:
Good point, ludin. Public universities and public education are publicly funded.
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yet you didn't read what I was responding to or the conversation probably a good idea to know what people are talking about first.
the fact is that there is already cheap college education in this country to be had at community college.

if college isn't for that person then there are plenty of trade schools that a person can go to.
 
Renae said:
Why do you stop at education?
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We as society decided many decades ago that every child was entitled to an education, that education (K-12) is a public good, part of the commons. And every state (AFAIK) funds their public colleges to a greater or lesser extent, providing large subsidies for those who attend college. So what we're arguing about isn't really any principle, but the level of funding for post HS education and/or training.

As I mentioned, Tennessee provides 'free' community college or vocational training for every resident, and 'free' college for those students who can maintain a B average in a 4 year public institution. I'm honestly shocked that our legislature voted in favor of this, but fully support it, as do employers and the business community. What they IMO correctly decided was a better educated workforce was a rare win/win for the students and future workers, the residents as a whole, and the business community.

You keep insisting that we muddy the waters by considering lodging, food, etc. but those really are separate issues entirely.
 
ludin said:
yet you didn't read what I was responding to or the conversation probably a good idea to know what people are talking about first.
the fact is that there is already cheap college education in this country to be had at community college.

if college isn't for that person then there are plenty of trade schools that a person can go to.
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At what point did I indicate that I hadn't read what you had responded to in the conversation?
 
JasperL said:
We as society decided many decades ago that every child was entitled to an education, that education (K-12) is a public good, part of the commons. And every state (AFAIK) funds their public colleges to a greater or lesser extent, providing large subsidies for those who attend college. So what we're arguing about isn't really any principle, but the level of funding for post HS education and/or training.

As I mentioned, Tennessee provides 'free' community college or vocational training for every resident, and 'free' college for those students who can maintain a B average in a 4 year public institution. I'm honestly shocked that our legislature voted in favor of this, but fully support it, as do employers and the business community. What they IMO correctly decided was a better educated workforce was a rare win/win for the students and future workers, the residents as a whole, and the business community.

You keep insisting that we muddy the waters by considering lodging, food, etc. but those really are separate issues entirely.
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No no, if we move to a Democratic Socialist State, the people can and should demand housing and food for free. The rich should pay for it.
 
JasperL said:
Why is that "disturbing stupidity?" A college education is about what a HS education was a couple of generations ago, roughly the minimum education for a good job in the current economy, and we've provided public K-12 for many decades. After WWII we provided "free" college to millions of veterans and set millions of them on the road to success. Tennessee is a pretty red state and we provide "free" college for the first two years of community college or vocational training, and if someone can maintain a B average, college is 'free' for 4 years. Germany is the dominant economy in the EU and they provide 'free' college.

At any rate, I don't see anything at all disturbingly stupid about the idea. Sure, there are lots of details that would matter a great deal in any concrete proposal - there have to be limits (for example given the terrible prospects for lawyers these days, a publicly funded $200k legal education isn't wise) - but in general I think basic college or vocational training should be publicly funded. It's no more a tough call to me than supporting publicly funded K-12.
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I could train an effing monkey to graduate high school. I don't want to see college reduced to that.

I'm willing to pay for my kids' college (or share the cost with them). I'm not willing to pay for yours.
 
ludin said:
irrelevant and conjecture so meaningless.




You mean the charts that have already been refuted time and time again by articles from non-bias sources?
ok you keep that up and your pretending.


SOrry I don't want LCD healthcare I value the health of my family more than that.
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you never refuted the charts and data. you ignored the parts that were inconvenient to your opinion. you're still welcome to find a Canadian poster who would trade systems with us. if you pull that off, then this discussion will become more interesting. until then, have a nice weekend.
 
Renae said:
Someone doesn't know what socialism is. Or how taxes work. Go back to school.
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Apparently, to you, socialism is all the government expansion we HAVENT done, but not the stuff you grew up with.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Renae said:
No no, if we move to a Democratic Socialist State, the people can and should demand housing and food for free. The rich should pay for it.
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OK, so insults and red herrings is how you're going to discuss this. Noted! :peace

Why do you ask questions if you have no intention of reading and responding to the points raised?
 
Erod said:
I could train an effing monkey to graduate high school. I don't want to see college reduced to that.

I'm willing to pay for my kids' college (or share the cost with them). I'm not willing to pay for yours.
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So, the Germans don't get a decent education? They seem to do pretty well with the whole engineering thing. Haven't heard their colleges have been dumbed down to lowest common denominator status since it's free and all.
 
Renae said:
No no, if we move to a Democratic Socialist State, the people can and should demand housing and food for free. The rich should pay for it.
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"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" -K. Marx

I'm a closet commie.
 
Celebrity said:


Right now he's talking about immigration reform in NYC.

Watch LIVE: In New York City, Bernie Sanders Asks Supporters, 'Where Do We Go From Here?' | Alternet
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well, in a perfect world, he should go to Cuba or Valenzuela where he can be among his ideological peers.... at the very least, he should do what every other failed candidate has done and go back to doing whatever he did before he lost the nomination.

I suspect he'll hang around and keep drumming up support for a Socialist revolution in the US, though.
 
Helix said:
you never refuted the charts and data. you ignored the parts that were inconvenient to your opinion. you're still welcome to find a Canadian poster who would trade systems with us. if you pull that off, then this discussion will become more interesting. until then, have a nice weekend.
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I have talked to plenty of Canadian people in the US that hate their system.
they can't stand the fact that it takes a year or more to see a doctor.

they would rather pay the cost to see one so they come to the US because of the wait times.
 
I think Bernie should create his own party after the 2016 election. Then elections afterwards can have coalitions coming together. Such as Bernie's party and the democratic party. I also think Trump should have his own party. It would turn into a parliamentary system where everyone can fit in somewhere. Our democracy would be much more vibrant if that was the case. The two party system is failing us.
 
JasperL said:
So, the Germans don't get a decent education? They seem to do pretty well with the whole engineering thing. Haven't heard their colleges have been dumbed down to lowest common denominator status since it's free and all.
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Are you really comparing German college to the vast system in America that offers high-level specialization and opportunity to students of all academic backgrounds and abilities?

Germany is a mess.
 
Erod said:
Germany is a mess.
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Not yet, but it will be in time. Germany is in trouble, that's why the right wing nationalism is supposedly on the rise.
 
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