Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election Canid

[joG]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

President Obama proposed the ACA, then backed-off it over his first year in office, where it seemed to languish awaiting it's demise. Speaker Pelosi then picked-up the ACA torch and carried it through her Democratically controlled Congress. It was her Congress that passed the ACA - not Obama!

Also, the President nominates SCOTUS hopefuls, but the Senate evaluates and confirms or *denies* them! [as is currently occurring now with the stalled Merrick Garland nomination]

There's little a sitting President can do legislatively, unless Congress approves. And there's only so much a sitting President can do using administrative orders, without running afoul of the Constitution and it's SCOTUS guardian. And even when the President is issuing administrative orders Constitutionally, Congress reserves the right to over-ride said orders if it sees fit.

So unless we'd like to speak in other more intangible terms such as 'image', 'world stature', etc., I see little the President can accomplish without the cooperation of Congress.

And I'd also add: There's virtually no action the President can do that Congress cannot explicitly preclude or reverse. For example, Congress can simply revoke the President's recent Executive Orders on immigration and gun policies if it so desired - but it chose not to do so.

The thing is that the Congress tends to support the President, when the majority is of his party and not to override executive orders willingly. If of the same party the President will sometimes pass the honor to Congress so that the people there pick up the prestige.

 

[Chomsky]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

The thing is that the Congress tends to support the President, when the majority is of his party and not to override executive orders willingly. If of the same party the President will sometimes pass the honor to Congress so that the people there pick up the prestige.

Yes, that's true.

But then if the majority of Congressional Representatives (irrespective of party affiliation) support a given order or piece of legislation, cannot it not be said the order or legislation represents the will of the majority of the American electorate?

This sounds like 'democracy in action', to me!

 

[justabubba]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

Polls are nothing more that theoretical exercises, if the candidate can't ascend to their party's nomination! :doh

if there was a better instrument to measure voter sentiment, i believe we would be using it

 

[joG]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

Yes, that's true.

But then if the majority of Congressional Representatives (irrespective of party affiliation) support a given order or piece of legislation, cannot it not be said the order or legislation represents the will of the majority of the American electorate?

This sounds like 'democracy in action', to me!

Just like the 35 hours work week and other social programs were the will of the French people and are now being unwound after causing great damage to their society.

 

[Chomsky]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

if there was a better instrument to measure voter sentiment, i believe we would be using it

Yes, but the point I was making is:

"Polls mean nothing if the party doesn't nominate the candidate; it's all just wishful thinking"!

If general election success polls were decisive, the GOP would have nominated Gov Kasich!

 

[Chomsky]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

Just like the 35 hours work week and other social programs were the will of the French people and are now being unwound after causing great damage to their society.

Alright, that's a fair argument.

If you're attempting to make the argument of 'knowledgeable leadership' over 'populous democracy', that's fair I suppose.

Edit: I do not have knowledge of the "great damage caused to French Society", so I'm not necessarily agreeing to that but can see the greater point where knowledgeable leaders may want/need to differ from popular thought.

 

[justabubba]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

Yes, but the point I was making is:

"Polls mean nothing if the party doesn't nominate the candidate; it's all just wishful thinking"!

If general election success polls were decisive, the GOP would have nominated Gov Kasich!

not according to the polls ... or even the actual voter results; one state victory

 

[Chomsky]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

not according to the polls ... or even the actual voter results; one state victory

During the height of the GOP primary the polls were showing Kasich matching-up the best in the general (against Clinton).

 

[justabubba]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

During the height of the GOP primary the polls were showing Kasich matching-up the best in the general (against Clinton).

the polls did
the voters did not

now you are the one defending the polls and i am the one writing in their opposition

 

[Chomsky]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

the polls did
the voters did not

now you are the one defending the polls and i am the one writing in their opposition

Hah! :doh

Bubba, with all due respect is there a particular point you're attempting to convey? We seem to be spinning in circles here.

Here's my OP that started our conversation, and I think it's fair:

Polls are nothing more that theoretical exercises, if the candidate can't ascend to their party's nomination! :doh

 

[What if...?]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

True. The country has about the best set of checks&balances of any I have looked at. But that is no excuse for neglecting the most efficient stop on power. Obama put through ACA, which indicates that Congress can be had. Executive orders and the like can be used treacherously. And Justices die. All sorts of things a President can do.

I hear you, but there is the fact that sanders is pretty principled.

I don't trust trump, and I feel Hillary would be more likely to abuse executive orders.

I am one of those who feel if the SC is going to be political it should be divided. For instance, I wouldnt be comfortable with sanders having a dem congress. Checks and balances.

 

[reinoe]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

the polls did
the voters did not

now you are the one defending the polls and i am the one writing in their opposition

The person who does the best in the general is not necessarily the person who does best representing the party. Rand Paul was crushing the opposition on the Dem side if I remember correctly however Rand is not necessarily who the GOP voters wanted.

 

[joG]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

I hear you, but there is the fact that sanders is pretty principled.

I don't trust trump, and I feel Hillary would be more likely to abuse executive orders.

I am one of those who feel if the SC is going to be political it should be divided. For instance, I wouldnt be comfortable with sanders having a dem congress. Checks and balances.

Trust none of them or anyone else. A person of principles can be worse though, because they will consistently pursue the same goal no matter, while the known crook will be watched by all at every moment.

 

[justabubba]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

Hah! :doh

Bubba, with all due respect is there a particular point you're attempting to convey? We seem to be spinning in circles here.

Here's my OP that started our conversation, and I think it's fair:

yea, my original point was that it is foolish the sacrifice the good for the perfect

 

[Fearandloathing]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

I'm also looking at the favorables of establishment VS anti-establishment candidates. Seems like lifers in politics are really taking it on the chin in polls. Let these current poll results nourish you but become aware these polls are gonna change.

That seems to be global. The same thing is happening in the Phillipines and Canada just elected a Prime Minister who never served in goverment, although is the son of a former great prime minister

 

[gavinfielder]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

The person who does the best in the general is not necessarily the person who does best representing the party. Rand Paul was crushing the opposition on the Dem side if I remember correctly however Rand is not necessarily who the GOP voters wanted.

If we made our choice of candidates based on the issues rather than electibility, there's no reason the democrats would prop up Hillary, whose legitimacy on issues has all the character of a flaccid sock puppet ("I'll do whatever the polls right now say I should, but only in small incremental steps"). If we made our choice of candidates on electibility, though, neither Clinton nor Trump would be leading the races.

Clearly, there's something completely different at work in each case.

 

[What if...?]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

Don't forget not executing laws proposed by both houses like immigration law or making up other laws like the Justice Department and its attempt to force N. Carolina out of its 'bathroom' stance for LGBT.

Is that a "wide" stance?

 

[What if...?]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

Sanders is bar none the most dangerous candidate. He'd be such a damage to foreign policy, monetary policy, the economy, and just about anything else he wants to touch. I despise Trump, but if it's ever Trump vs Sanders Trump may be the lesser of two evils.

I'm not sure how he could actually do any of those things.

As I said upthread he won't be god or a king.

 

[Abbazorkzog]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

I've been saying it since the beginning - the simple fact HRC is not a guaranteed victor against Trump is reason enough to vote for Bernie.
Now, her (our) only shot is if Bernie Sanders accepts her VP offer.
Otherwise, get ready for Trump.

(Although her blatant selfish arrogance - willing to endanger the nation to such a President - just to be party nominee, has recently got me rooting for Trump).

 

[FieldTheorist]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

Read more @: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election Candidate

If you want the candidate that is, as of today, a guarantee win against Trump then vote Sanders.
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Don't worry, these polls are all flukes. Hillary will be a "strong candidate" and the polls will "certainly flip" in "June."


*sigh* Well, one thing is true. The establishment bubble will get popped in 2016. I can't believe that Donald J. Trump, a complete asshole, is going to be the one to do it.

 

[Eviljesus]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

These polls are very misleading. Just as Sanders supporters have pointed out, he gets very little media coverage. Now this does keep people from hearing his views, but it has also kept the media from attacking his past. Hillary has been attacked in Conservative media for a quarter century. I would like to see poll numbers if the conservative media had been attacking Sanders radical past, including claiming conscientious objector during Vietnam. Before Sanders supporters attack me, I agree most of this is BS. Unfortunately in this political atmosphere it doesn't matter. They are talking points that the screwed up media will debate to death.
This is why conservative super PACs have spent millions in anti Hillary ads to try and help Sanders. Hillarys baggage (and there is a lot of it) has been reported as it happens over the years. The decision to love or hate her has already been made. With her negative poll numbers I think more hate than love. With Sanders they could slowly use his past to turn people against him. Of course like Trump supporters, hard core Sanders supporters will not be swayed but there is a larger group that could be. Though Sanders supporters don't like to admit it, there are already more Democrats against him than for him. More than Hillary, he will need to swing voters his way.

 

[Glowpun]

Re: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election C

Read more @: Sanders Crushing Trump in Polls 53% to 38 %, Seen as Strongest General Election Candidate

If you want the candidate that is, as of today, a guarantee win against Trump then vote Sanders.
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That will not happen. The Dems are too enamored and conservative and Hillary will win out. Poor strategists are the dems.