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Same-sex "marriage"

The government should move toward recognizing a marriage between any two consenting adults, since all it really is is a contract

Thats the key here.

Two adults. Not 3,4,5 or 6, Not a man and his dog or anything else.
Two Adults, over the age of 18 years old.

Whoopi Goldberg, "If gay marriage bothers you that much....DONT MARRY ONE!"
 
Willoughby said:
i do have reservations have group marriage but that is for another discussion because i don't believe that gay marriage will lead to group marriage..although as you have said it may be logical in terms of civil righst etc i don't think it is the political conclusion of having gay marriages

You know, I wonder, is it because we as a society allow heterosexual marriages that now Gays want equal accesss to marriage?
OMG what were our founding fathers thinking?!
They should have known better, they should have antisipated other groups of people might want to share in that idea of an equal society, shame on them!

J/K:mrgreen:
 
Kelzie said:
And same sex marriage is socialist how exactly?

Kelzie, are you forgetting the first rule of conservative debating? If it's a social change that you don't like, that it's socialistic!


Duke
 
:2usflag:

America! Land of the 100% Free! I used to think that before my right to marry was taken away from me by my fellow citizens.

:blowup:

thx guys
 
doughgirl said:
I agree I do not like the idea of group marriage either, but its around the corner, not far away.


I don't believe poly/group marriage is around the corner at all..........and I follow this type of legislation closely.

That said, part of the problematic *perception* surrounding group marriage is the sensationalized reports of older men marrying 3, 4, 5 or more wives, many of whom are well under age at the time and/or who are related...........then having scores of children and not providing for any of the wives/children he'd involved with. These cases are often surrounded by accusations (true or otherwise) of child abuse, sexual abuse, spousal abuse and lots of religious confinement from the real world.

And I'm not saying these cases aren't out there and very real, so let's just get that out of the way.

But there are large groups of non-religious people living within poly relationships of all sorts of configurations. Some involve fidelity to the group (3 or more persons) and others are more open to the outside. Some involve bi or homosexuality, others do not. These aren't persons forced into a non-traditional lifestyle via religion and/or isolation. There are professionals from all level of business, persons of all levels of education...........some keep their relationships in the closet, while others are very much out. Many float somewhere in between. Lots of healthy, normal children are being raised in these relationships as well.

Very few studies have been conducted regarding the longterm success of poly (3 or more persons) relationships, but to date each study seems to turn up the same results as found in the average hetero population.........they seem to split about as often as average marriages and seem to last about as long in terms of years. From what I've seen the break ups can be about as complicated as a regular marriage breaking up, though I'm the first to agree three people breaking up does have the potential for more complications than two..........I've just never witnessed a really horrible poly break up to date.

Anyway, my point is only that the desire to commit yourself to more than one person, in a marriage sort of way, isn't always a function of religious influence............it can likewise spring from the very same desire present when two people commit to each other. What we see in the media, in terms of poly sensationalism, isn't necessarily how most group marriages would look. I too have a problem with under aged girls being forced into marriage and I've lived within a poly relationship for 21 years now. Not all group marriages are based on old men robbing girls of their youth or choices.
 
jallman said:
So what does group marriage have to do with gay marriage again? I just ask because we know your penchant for red herrings, smoke screens, and unsupported opinion.

I've thought alot about this. I'm all for same sex marriage. But for some reason I don't like the idea of polygamy. But you're right the two are unrelated. But the fact of the matter is polygamy exists illegally in the US and many of these families want to be legally recognized too. So while the two aren't related.......currently marriage is recognized as a man and a women. If you open the door to change that and allow same sex marriages then wouldn't you also be opening the door to polygamy? I'm still for same sex marriage though and I'm not sure why I dislike polygamy. However I grew up around gay people but everything I've learned about polygamy comes from TV. Plus I really view polygamy as something done a long time ago when women were property and you'd trade your daughter for a donkey. Maybe thats where the yuck feeling comes from. I do think many of the arguments that one would use to defend same sex marriages could be used to defend polygamy. Why not? But I don't think it's right to let my fear of polygamy keep me from agreeing that yes same sex couples should be allowed to marry. I did see a preview on TV recently for a show that's going to be coming out about polygamy, a series! So that's kind of interesting.
 
talloulou said:
I've thought alot about this. I'm all for same sex marriage. But for some reason I don't like the idea of polygamy. But you're right the two are unrelated. But the fact of the matter is polygamy exists illegally in the US and many of these families want to be legally recognized too. So while the two aren't related.......currently marriage is recognized as a man and a women. If you open the door to change that and allow same sex marriages then wouldn't you also be opening the door to polygamy? I'm still for same sex marriage though and I'm not sure why I dislike polygamy. However I grew up around gay people but everything I've learned about polygamy comes from TV. Plus I really view polygamy as something done a long time ago when women were property and you'd trade your daughter for a donkey. Maybe thats where the yuck feeling comes from. I do think many of the arguments that one would use to defend same sex marriages could be used to defend polygamy. Why not? But I don't think it's right to let my fear of polygamy keep me from agreeing that yes same sex couples should be allowed to marry. I did see a preview on TV recently for a show that's going to be coming out about polygamy, a series! So that's kind of interesting.

This is a really hard concept for me to explain, but it makes so much sense in my mind, so I will try. There is no difference between a homo and hetero marriage that will allow a polygamous marriage any more...potential for rights. Why is it that gay marriage would allow polys to marry but hetero marriages wouldn't?
 
Kelzie said:
This is a really hard concept for me to explain, but it makes so much sense in my mind, so I will try. There is no difference between a homo and hetero marriage that will allow a polygamous marriage any more...potential for rights. Why is it that gay marriage would allow polys to marry but hetero marriages wouldn't?

gay marriage and polygamous marriage are both taboo, and hetersexual marriage is not.
 
star2589 said:
gay marriage and polygamous marriage are both taboo, and hetersexual marriage is not.

And? Allowing one taboo thing does not open up the gates for other taboo things. Polys would have just as strong an argument for their based off the fact that heteros can marry as they would if homos could marry.
 
Kelzie said:
And? Allowing one taboo thing does not open up the gates for other taboo things. Polys would have just as strong an argument for their based off the fact that heteros can marry as they would if homos could marry.

you seem to forget that most people arent logical. :mrgreen:
 
Kelzie said:
This is a really hard concept for me to explain, but it makes so much sense in my mind, so I will try. There is no difference between a homo and hetero marriage that will allow a polygamous marriage any more...potential for rights. Why is it that gay marriage would allow polys to marry but hetero marriages wouldn't?

Well in our society marriage has been historically defined as a man and a woman. By allowing same sex marriages we are in a sense saying it is okay to change that historical definition and the government should not interfere and dictate that marriage must be a man and a woman. Obviously this same argument can be made for polygamy...can it not?
 
talloulou said:
By allowing same sex marriages we are in a sense saying it is okay to change that historical definition and the government should not interfere and dictate that marriage must be a man and a woman. Obviously this same argument can be made for polygamy...can it not?



yes, the very same argument can and would be made..........and in my opinion SHOULD be made. there are many of us living productive, stable lives in poly relationships. why should the legal protection/perks be held back from our families?

that said, I don't think the slope is quite as slippery as many wish to believe. I'd love to think gay marriage would be a straight line into poly marriage, but there are huge differences in terms of legalities which would greatly hamper the slippery slope going there very quickly..........after all, hetero marriage is between two adults and so is homo marriage. the laws dont need to be rewritten in any way, shape or form concerning benefits, divorces etc............the magical two number remains the same in gay marriage

whereas much rewriting and thought will need to go into the legal type changes our system would require for poly marriages. who gets what in a divorce? who gets whose social security benefits when someone dies? what about the children?? are they adopted legally by the non-bio parent? considered under the same laws as step parents? can any one of the three provide health insurance for all?? where there's a death w/o a will are the other two automatic recipients like with regular marriages? what if one broke off awhile back but the marriage was never put through the divorce process? it's all the same complications you find in hetero marriage entaglements x more people..........and more non-bio children
 
Blue Collar Joe said:
It's not 'important' reform, and we want no part of socialism. You can keep it. As for the issue of homosexual marriage, Mass. is a state, not a country. And they ignored the voters. Figure the odds. The first big push wsa to have the citizenry decide by vote, because they just knew it would win.
Nope. It got creamed. So, in true liberal fashion, they take it to court to get their way. No thanks.


So if the majority of citizens in a state were muslim, or wiccan would you agree that they have the right to put christianity up for a vote? BTW the constituion says that congress shall make no law says nothing about the states banning religion. What if the majority of the people are black do you think they should have the right to vote on white peoples rights? What if the majority of the people in a state were gay do you think they should have a right to vote to ban hetero marriage? That is the problem with conservatives they don't think about both sides of the issue. They believe if the majority is hetero then it is great but I have a feeling that you, as a hetero, would be put out if the majority was gay and attacking your civil rights.
 
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We live in a democracy and one should be free to be miserable as one chooses, whether with a partner of the same sex or the opposite.
 
talloulou said:
Well in our society marriage has been historically defined as a man and a woman. By allowing same sex marriages we are in a sense saying it is okay to change that historical definition and the government should not interfere and dictate that marriage must be a man and a woman. Obviously this same argument can be made for polygamy...can it not?

No, it cannot. Marriage, as a legal contract, implies certain consent, implications of assumption, and rules of engagement offered by one party to another. Allowing gay marriage still leaves those rules, implications, and consents transferred only between two parties. It is no more disruptive than when during the civil rights movement, whites and blacks were finally allowed to marry.

When you allow polygamy, you begin to rewrite the contract, making concessions for multiple parties being involved in these consents, assumptions of executory powers concerning a will, and rules of engagement. We have no basis in our society for determining a precedent where multiple wives, of differing emotional and legal stature, can relate to a single husband, or vice versa. And then just imagine the legal implication of multiple husbands engaging multiple wives with multiple assortments of progeny to decide for. Its inconceivable to the rational citizen that there is even a correlation between gay marriage between two consenting adults and the legal nightmare instigated by a full on "hippy free love fest".
 
There is no express right under the Constitution for a person to be married or provision for the regulation of marriage by the federal government.
 
Ausonius said:
There is no express right under the Constitution for a person to be married or provision for the regulation of marriage by the federal government.

umm, yes there is...

TENTH AMENDMENT - The Tenth Amendment provides that " The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. " U.S. Const. amend. X. As a textual matter, therefore, the Tenth Amendment "states but a truism that all is retained which has not been surrendered." United States v. Darby, 312 U.S. 100, 124 (1941). By its terms, the Amendment does not purport to limit the commerce power or any other enumerated power of Congress.

In recent years, however, the Tenth Amendment has been interpreted "to encompass any implied constitutional limitation on Congress' authority to regulate state activities, whether grounded in the Tenth Amendment itself or in principles of federalism derived generally from the Constitution." South Carolina v. Baker, 485 U.S. 505, 511 n.5 (1988). Thus, "the Tenth Amendment confirms that the power of the Federal Government is subject to limits that may, in a given instance, reserve power to the States." New York v. United States, 505 U.S. 144, 157 (1992).

Now, by federal need to enforce legal contracts across state lines, if the states are conflicting and it is causing an issue of national division, perhaps the federal goverment should make such decisions for the states. I mean...why do we have an over ruling federal government if it cant be the final say on a trivial issue between the states?
 
jallman said:
No, it cannot. Marriage, as a legal contract, implies certain consent, implications of assumption, and rules of engagement offered by one party to another. Allowing gay marriage still leaves those rules, implications, and consents transferred only between two parties. It is no more disruptive than when during the civil rights movement, whites and blacks were finally allowed to marry.

When you allow polygamy, you begin to rewrite the contract, making concessions for multiple parties being involved in these consents, assumptions of executory powers concerning a will, and rules of engagement. We have no basis in our society for determining a precedent where multiple wives, of differing emotional and legal stature, can relate to a single husband, or vice versa. And then just imagine the legal implication of multiple husbands engaging multiple wives with multiple assortments of progeny to decide for. Its inconceivable to the rational citizen that there is even a correlation between gay marriage between two consenting adults and the legal nightmare instigated by a full on "hippy free love fest".

I don't beleive this for a second.

At the core of this debate is on what grounds our representative form of government can discriminate when defining marriage.

As I have argued seperately, all the actual rights at play deal with individuals. Property transfer, power of attorney, etc. A marriage contract does provide immediately settlement for these issues but it is not the only way. Of course your defense to this is it isn't "fair" that the individual has to seek out an expensive solution when marriage is so cheap. You do recognize that the same defense applies to polygamy?

The other benefit (not rights) found in nationally sanctioned marriage are social security benefits, uniform health care and sick leave benefit restrictions placed on employers, etc. The simple fact is changes in our marriage laws will erode actual rights further while restoring none currently lost.

Unfortunately, we decide these things at the national level where 150 million people must exist under the same outcome. If you want to fix something, fix that.
 
The Ninth and Tenth Amendments do not provide an express right under the Constitution for a person to be married; marriage is strictly a matter of state (not federal) law.
 
Ausonius said:
The Ninth and Tenth Amendments do not provide an express right under the Constitution for a person to be married; marriage is strictly a matter of state (not federal) law.

Yes, but the problem is the federal goverment has programs and laws that transfer certain benefits to people recognized as married in individual states.

The ostrich approach isn't going ot cut it. :mrgreen:
 
Many federal statutes incorporate state law relating to marriage, which would include how marriage is defined. For example, some states recognize "common-law" marriage, while other states do not; and a couple who would be treated as "married" in Texas, would be treated as "unmarried" individuals if they subsequently moved to California and filed bankruptcy.
 
jallman said:
umm, yes there is...

another relevant case:

Loving v. Virginia
The State does not contend in its argument before this Court that its powers to regulate marriage are unlimited notwithstanding the commands of the Fourteenth Amendment. Nor could it do so. Instead, the State argues that the meaning of the Equal Protection Clause, as illuminated by the statements of the Framers, is only that state penal laws containing an interracial element as part of the definition of the offense must apply equally to whites and Negroes in the sense that members of each race are punished to the same degree. Thus, the State contends that, because its miscegenation statutes punish equally both the white and the Negro participants in an interracial marriage, these statutes, despite their reliance on racial classifications, do not constitute an invidious discrimination based upon race. The second argument advanced by the State assumes the validity of its equal application theory. The argument is that, if the Equal Protection Clause does not outlaw miscegenation statutes because of their reliance on racial classifications, the question of constitutionality would thus become whether there was any rational basis for a State to treat interracial marriages differently from other marriages. On this question, the State argues, the scientific evidence is substantially in doubt and, consequently, this Court should defer to the wisdom of the state legislature in adopting its policy of discouraging interracial marriages.

Because we reject the notion that the mere "equal application" of a statute containing racial classifications is enough to remove the classifications from the Fourteenth Amendment's proscription of all invidious racial discriminations, we do not accept the State's contention that these statutes should be upheld if there is any possible basis for concluding that they serve a rational purpose. The mere fact of equal application does not mean that our analysis of these statutes should follow the approach we have taken in cases involving no racial discrimination where the Equal Protection Clause has been arrayed against a statute discriminating between the kinds of advertising which may be displayed on trucks in New York City or an exemption in Ohio's ad valorem tax for merchandise owned by a nonresident in a storage warehouse. In these cases, involving distinctions not drawn according to race, the Court has merely asked whether there is any rational foundation for the discriminations, and has deferred to the wisdom of the state legislatures. In the case at bar, however, we deal with statutes containing racial classifications, and the fact of equal application does not immunize the statute from the very heavy burden of justification which the Fourteenth Amendment has traditionally required of state statutes drawn according to race.

all you have to do, is change "race" and "racial" to "sex" and "sexual." its the opposite situation.

Both sexes/races can marry someone of the opposite/same sex/race, but not of the same/opposite sex/race. The law is applied equally to both sexes/races.
 
jallman said:
When you allow polygamy, you begin to rewrite the contract, making concessions for multiple parties being involved in these consents, assumptions of executory powers concerning a will, and rules of engagement. We have no basis in our society for determining a precedent where multiple wives, of differing emotional and legal stature, can relate to a single husband, or vice versa. And then just imagine the legal implication of multiple husbands engaging multiple wives with multiple assortments of progeny to decide for. Its inconceivable to the rational citizen that there is even a correlation between gay marriage between two consenting adults and the legal nightmare instigated by a full on "hippy free love fest".

Good point.
 
Loving v. Virginia was decided under Fourteenth Amendment, which acts as a limitation on state action. The decision does not hold that a person has an express federal right under the Constitution to be married; nor may the Fourteenth Amendment be applied to expand federal jurisdiction where it is not granted under the Constitution. A citizen’s right to marry is a matter of state law; and, as indicated supra, the laws governing marriage differ from state to state, and there are few situations where federal jurisdiction may be invoked to challenge state sovereignty over the subject. See Williams v. North Carolina, 317 U.S. 287 (1942); and also Williams v. North Carolina, 325 U.S. 226 (1945).
 
zymurgy said:
I don't beleive this for a second.

At the core of this debate is on what grounds our representative form of government can discriminate when defining marriage.

As I have argued seperately, all the actual rights at play deal with individuals. Property transfer, power of attorney, etc. A marriage contract does provide immediately settlement for these issues but it is not the only way. Of course your defense to this is it isn't "fair" that the individual has to seek out an expensive solution when marriage is so cheap. You do recognize that the same defense applies to polygamy?

The other benefit (not rights) found in nationally sanctioned marriage are social security benefits, uniform health care and sick leave benefit restrictions placed on employers, etc. The simple fact is changes in our marriage laws will erode actual rights further while restoring none currently lost.

Unfortunately, we decide these things at the national level where 150 million people must exist under the same outcome. If you want to fix something, fix that.

You can CHOOSE not to believe it all you wish, but the fact remains that proof of it's interpretation exists in the protability of marriages across state lines and in federal and state tax issues.

Therefore presidence exists.
 
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