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Same-sex "marriage"

Willoughby

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I really don't understand the arguments against same-sex marriage or civil partners. As of 2005 all of these countries have same-sex civil partnerships:
Denmark, 1989.

Norway, 1996.

Sweden, 1996.

Iceland, 1996.

France, 1999.

Vermont, USA, 2000.

Germany, 2001.

Finland, 2002.

Luxembourg, 2004.

New Zealand, 2004.

Connecticut, USA, 2005.

Britain, 2005.



and all these countries have same-sex marriage:

The Netherlands, 2001.

Belgium, 2003.

Massachusetts, USA, 2004.

Canada, 2005.

Spain, 2005.




and has the social fabric broken down in any way...no!
if a deeply catholic country like spain can handle gay marriages why can't the US.....maybe need a socialish gov. in the US like in Spain to get these important reforms through
 

Blue Collar Joe

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It's not 'important' reform, and we want no part of socialism. You can keep it. As for the issue of homosexual marriage, Mass. is a state, not a country. And they ignored the voters. Figure the odds. The first big push wsa to have the citizenry decide by vote, because they just knew it would win.
Nope. It got creamed. So, in true liberal fashion, they take it to court to get their way. No thanks.
 

Kelzie

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Blue Collar Joe said:
It's not 'important' reform, and we want no part of socialism. You can keep it. As for the issue of homosexual marriage, Mass. is a state, not a country. And they ignored the voters. Figure the odds. The first big push wsa to have the citizenry decide by vote, because they just knew it would win.
Nope. It got creamed. So, in true liberal fashion, they take it to court to get their way. No thanks.
And same sex marriage is socialist how exactly?
 

Blue Collar Joe

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Kelzie said:
And same sex marriage is socialist how exactly?
The socialism comment wasn't regarding the issue of same-sex marriage, Kelzie. It was regarding the comment made at the end of his comment about we needed some socialism in our government. Nothing more.
 

Kelzie

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Blue Collar Joe said:
The socialism comment wasn't regarding the issue of same-sex marriage, Kelzie. It was regarding the comment made at the end of his comment about we needed some socialism in our government. Nothing more.
Sorry. Didn't read that far down.
 

Willoughby

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was regarding the comment made at the end of his comment about we needed some socialism in our government. Nothing more.
i said socialish. not socialist..the government isn't socialist..it just has some left-wing policies...i wasn't saying that socialists should take over america..i know you lot really wouldn't be able to handle...i mean couldn't become president by out-spending the rival then would you!
 

Blue Collar Joe

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Apoloigies for misreading your post then. If you want a topic on welfare, I'll write up some of my beliefs on it tomorrow and post them for you. See what you think of how I feel the government should be ran.
 

Captain America

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Mark my word. It's not always about gays marrying. It's about getting the rightwing republicans to get off of their butts election day and going to the polls to vote in more republicans.

Take notice on how many of these "votes" happen on the same day that these states elect their politicians as well.

It was no different than Alaska's attemmpt to draw left wing voters to the polls by adding marijuana decriminalization to the ballots.

Voter manipulation...... it's happening everywhere.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/G/GAY_MARRIAGE_WISCONSIN?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US
 
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Blue Collar Joe

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No, they put all these things on the same ballot for money reasons. It's a lot cheaper and easier to hold on election than two or three. And political hot potatoes always wind up on a regular ballot.
 

Kandahar

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It's interesting to note that in the places where gay marriage has been legalized, it's no longer even a political issue. You don't see conservatives in those places rallying to undo it (with the exception of Mitt Romney who is doing some shameless pandering for a hopeless presidential bid).

I think that most people who are against it, are simply afraid of change. But once they see that society doesn't collapse, they readily accept it.

A prediction: With the aid of a conservative-leaning SCOTUS, gay marriage will become legal in all 50 states before the end of George W Bush's term. And it won't even be an issue in the 2008 election.
 

Kelzie

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Kandahar said:
It's interesting to note that in the places where gay marriage has been legalized, it's no longer even a political issue. You don't see conservatives in those places rallying to undo it (with the exception of Mitt Romney who is doing some shameless pandering for a hopeless presidential bid).

I think that most people who are against it, are simply afraid of change. But once they see that society doesn't collapse, they readily accept it.

A prediction: With the aid of a conservative-leaning SCOTUS, gay marriage will become legal in all 50 states before the end of George W Bush's term. And it won't even be an issue in the 2008 election.
I call no way. It won't be legal for another 20 years. Not until the young adult generation has control of the government. That is if we ever get off our *** and do anything. Too many people are opposed to it now.
 

Willoughby

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i literally don't know the answer for this one as i am not from the states but is it that the majoirty are opposed to it or that the majority of the vocal people are opposed to it?
 

Captain America

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Kandahar said:
A prediction: With the aid of a conservative-leaning SCOTUS, gay marriage will become legal in all 50 states before the end of George W Bush's term. And it won't even be an issue in the 2008 election.
No way. Bush will see (has seen) to it that the Supreme Court is stacked on the side of the right and they will now attempt to forever close the door, to future generations, to decide for themselves whether or not abortion or gay marriages are acceptable.

Don't tell me you guys didn't see this coming?:confused:
 

Kandahar

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Kelzie said:
I call no way. It won't be legal for another 20 years. Not until the young adult generation has control of the government. That is if we ever get off our *** and do anything. Too many people are opposed to it now.
Think how fast the civil rights movement progressed once it picked up steam. In less than a decade, mainstream American society went from racism to disdain for racism.

I think the debates on this message board are quite telling. Even many of the staunchest conservatives here support civil unions and are ambivalent toward gay marriage (Was that true as little as 2 years ago? I doubt it.) The last time I went home to Small Town, Ohio to visit my family, I noticed the same thing when discussing the issue with some of my classmates from high school (hardcore Christians).

If even these people are coming around to support civil unions, support for gay marriage can't be far behind. I haven't seen any polls on it in the last year or two, but I would guess that the support/oppose percentages have probably already flipped (or at least evened out) from the 35/65 that Gallup reported a couple years ago. I don't have statistics on that though, so I'm just judging from what I've observed.
 
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FallingPianos

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I really don't understand the arguments against same-sex marriage or civil partners.
I certainly don't agree with the arguments against same-sex marriage, but I could summarise a few of them:

1. "marriage is between a man and a woman by definition, and you cant change the definition of marriage"

my response is "says who?" and "why not?"

arguing over semantics is pretty pointless.

2. "gays do have the same legal rights. a gay man legally can marry a woman just like a straight man can."

thats true, but not relevant sinse we're not fighting for gays to have the right to marry people of the opposite sex. we're fighting for the legal right for gays (and technically for straights as well) to be able to marry people of the same sex

3. "homosexuality is a sin, and there should be no law that endorses it."

who says its a sin?

"God does"

I don't care what your God says.

4. "why should I have to pay for something that I think is immoral through government benifits?"

because it's inherent in any sort of democratic government that sometimes individuals will disagree with either the majority of the populace, or the majority of their representatives. no one gets tax cuts because they oppose something the government is doing



anyway, those are the main arguments I see, though im sure there must be others. my own opinion, is that the best solution is to get the government out of marriage entirely. eliminate monetary benifits to married couples, and allow the legal benifits to be done through private contract.

some people say that gay marriage degrades the inherently religious institution of marriage. I say that if marriage is a religious institution, then government involvement degrades it.
 

Kandahar

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Captain America said:
No way. Bush will see (has seen) to it that the Supreme Court is stacked on the side of the right and they will now attempt to forever close the door, to future generations, to decide for themselves whether or not abortion or gay marriages are acceptable.

Don't tell me you guys didn't see this coming?:confused:
Let's see...

I count four liberals on the SCOTUS
I count one pro-gay rights moderate (Kennedy)
I count at least one slightly pro-gay rights conservative (Alito)
I count at least two conservatives with mixed/unknown records on gay rights (Scalia/Roberts)

I would predict that the SCOTUS, as it is currently composed, would rule 6-3 in favor of nationwide gay marriage.
 
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FallingPianos

Kelzie said:
I call no way. It won't be legal for another 20 years. Not until the young adult generation has control of the government. That is if we ever get off our *** and do anything. Too many people are opposed to it now.
I agree. even in oregon, which is a fairly liberal state, 57 percent of voters voted to add an amendment to the oregon constitution defining marriage as being between one man and one woman. this was just a couple years ago.

according to this poll: http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/OR/I/02/epolls.0.html

56% percent of voters between 18 and 29 (13% of all voters) opposed the amendment, and exactly half of those between 18 and 64 (80 % of all voters) opposed it.

the main support for the amendment came from those above 65, and in 20 years most of those people will be gone.
 

Captain America

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Kandahar said:
Let's see...

I count four liberals on the SCOTUS
I count one pro-gay rights moderate (Kennedy)
I count at least one slightly pro-gay rights conservative (Alito)
I count at least two conservatives with mixed/unknown records on gay rights (Scalia/Roberts)

I would predict that the SCOTUS, as it is currently composed, would rule 6-3 in favor of nationwide gay marriage.
I hope you're right but I won't be holding my breath.
 

doughgirl

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Kandahar I dissagree.

Traditional marriage is the most winning electoral issue in the nation right now. In every state that voted to amend its consitution to protect marriage between one man and one woman, marriage passed by a LANDSLIDE.
Seventeen out of seventeen states turned it down. And down by a large percentage of the votes.

Alaska passed 68 to 32%
Arkansas 75 to 25%
Georgia 77 to 23%
Hawaii 69 to 29%
Kentucky 75 to 25%
Lousiania 78 to 22%
Michigan 59 to 41%
Mississippi 86 to 14%
Missouri 71 to 29%
Montana 66 to 34%
Nebraska 70 to 30%
Nevada 70 to 30% in 2000 67 to 33% in 2002
North Dakota 73 to 27%
Ohio 62 to 38%
Oklahoma 76 to 24%
Oregon 57 to 43%
Utah 66 to 34%

As of August 1, 2004, 39 states had Defense of Marriage Acts (DOMAs).

(http://www.alliancealert.org/aa2004/2004_11_03.htm)



Not only did marriage win big in this past election but I believe morals elected the president.

The number one issue that mattered most in deciding who to vote for president was morals. And of the 22% who listed it, 80% voted for Bush. People of faith took action and voted the values that matter most Anti-abortion, traditional marriage.
(Jeffrey Jones,"How Americans Voted, Bush Owes Victory to Support from Conservative-Leaning Groups," The Gallup Organization, 5 November,2004
www.gallup.com/poll/content/?ci=13957)

Now if you are a politician which side would you take? Hillary Clinton has already started to soften her liberal views. She has to or she wouldnt stand a chance of winning.
 

Captain America

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Not only did marriage win big in this past election but I believe morals elected the president.


:rofl
 

Kelzie

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doughgirl said:
Kandahar I dissagree.

Traditional marriage is the most winning electoral issue in the nation right now. In every state that voted to amend its consitution to protect marriage between one man and one woman, marriage passed by a LANDSLIDE.
Seventeen out of seventeen states turned it down. And down by a large percentage of the votes.

Alaska passed 68 to 32%
Arkansas 75 to 25%
Georgia 77 to 23%
Hawaii 69 to 29%
Kentucky 75 to 25%
Lousiania 78 to 22%
Michigan 59 to 41%
Mississippi 86 to 14%
Missouri 71 to 29%
Montana 66 to 34%
Nebraska 70 to 30%
Nevada 70 to 30% in 2000 67 to 33% in 2002
North Dakota 73 to 27%
Ohio 62 to 38%
Oklahoma 76 to 24%
Oregon 57 to 43%
Utah 66 to 34%

As of August 1, 2004, 39 states had Defense of Marriage Acts (DOMAs).

(http://www.alliancealert.org/aa2004/2004_11_03.htm)



Not only did marriage win big in this past election but I believe morals elected the president.

The number one issue that mattered most in deciding who to vote for president was morals. And of the 22% who listed it, 80% voted for Bush. People of faith took action and voted the values that matter most Anti-abortion, traditional marriage.
(Jeffrey Jones,"How Americans Voted, Bush Owes Victory to Support from Conservative-Leaning Groups," The Gallup Organization, 5 November,2004
www.gallup.com/poll/content/?ci=13957)

Now if you are a politician which side would you take? Hillary Clinton has already started to soften her liberal views. She has to or she wouldnt stand a chance of winning.

Like I said. Twenty years and it will be legal. It's only the old people that can't let go of the past that have a problem with it. Women's lib was the same.
 

doughgirl

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Kelzie said, “Like I said. Twenty years and it will be legal. It's only the old people that can't let go of the past that have a problem with it. Women's lib was the same.”
I have no doubt that one day all states will unfortunately not protect traditional marriage and vote to let any two living creatures marry including dogs, cats and elephants.

I also have no doubt one day, child pornography will be legalized.... Incest will be legalized…. I have no doubt that prostitution will be legalized and brothels will open up all over in areas that today they are restricted. Maybe next to your house Kelzie. I believe that bestiality will be legalized and there will be clinics where you can drop off a loved one to be put to sleep….. I believe one day you will be FORCED to accept a lot of things that you believe in your heart to be wrong or be jailed. I also believe freedom of speech will end. You talk bad about homosexuals….you get fined or jailed. I believe you will not be able to even buy a Bible that it will be banned….worshipping god will be outlawed.

I think everything good and moral will be criminalized.

Oh I think we are headed for disaster, obviously you do not. You are obviously very young and have many more years than I have at 50…….good luck, you will need it. And obviously you are one who doesn’t see any wisdom or value to the elderly. So sad.

You ought to read “A Brave New World” Kelzie, you’d like it.
 

Willoughby

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I have no doubt that one day all states will unfortunately not protect traditional marriage and vote to let any two living creatures marry including dogs, cats and elephants.

I also have no doubt one day, child pornography will be legalized.... Incest will be legalized…. I have no doubt that prostitution will be legalized and brothels will open up all over in areas that today they are restricted. Maybe next to your house Kelzie. I believe that bestiality will be legalized and there will be clinics where you can drop off a loved one to be put to sleep….. I believe one day you will be FORCED to accept a lot of things that you believe in your heart to be wrong or be jailed. I also believe freedom of speech will end. You talk bad about homosexuals….you get fined or jailed. I believe you will not be able to even buy a Bible that it will be banned….worshipping god will be outlawed.

I think everything good and moral will be criminalized.

Oh I think we are headed for disaster, obviously you do not. You are obviously very young and have many more years than I have at 50…….good luck, you will need it. And obviously you are one who doesn’t see any wisdom or value to the elderly. So sad.

You ought to read “A Brave New World” Kelzie, you’d like it.
some time you can just help but laugh!:lol: :lol:
 

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doughgirl said:
I have no doubt that one day all states will unfortunately not protect traditional marriage and vote to let any two living creatures marry including dogs, cats and elephants.
This is the single biggest bullshit argument that those who oppose equal rights for all americans use against the gay marriage camp. Here is a little lesson in law: marriage is a contract. Therefore, both participating parties must be able to consent to participation in the contract. Animals have no legal standing nor do they have the ability to consent to a contract. Thus, your argument that gay marriage will lead to animal marriage is pure sophistry and red herring and ignorance. Mildly amusing that religious wingnuts are the ones who seem to always be dwelling on bestiality though. :mrgreen:

I also have no doubt one day, child pornography will be legalized.... Incest will be legalized….
Here again, children have no legal grounds to consent to releasing their rights to privacy...one of the components of legal pornography. Your sophistry is tiring, though still amusing that it is religious wingnuts who dwell on the perverted.

I have no doubt that prostitution will be legalized and brothels will open up all over in areas that today they are restricted. Maybe next to your house Kelzie.
If the prostitution is treated with occupational safety regulations as it is in some areas, then it is only up to the people of that area to decide the zoning laws.

I believe that bestiality will be legalized
Again, pay attention to legal aspects of consent. And again, more amusement at how you people dwell on the truly perverted.

and there will be clinics where you can drop off a loved one to be put to sleep…..
Silliness and nothing to support such a claim. But hey, your beliefs are yours to cherish.

I believe one day you will be FORCED to accept a lot of things that you believe in your heart to be wrong or be jailed. I also believe freedom of speech will end.
Thats already happened. You accept speed limits, taxes, no smoking areas...if you want them changed, there are appropriate channels for trying.

You talk bad about homosexuals….you get fined or jailed.
You dont understand anything about equal rights and equality, do you? No one wants to ban you for talking bad about anyone. Though it is in poor taste and generally frowned upon, it is your right to speak however you like. However, it is not ok for the government to speak of or treat a group of people any differently because the government has no right to judge based on moral disapproval. You as a private citizen or group, however, can judge away, even though it is against Christ's teachings to judge another. You just cant force that person you are judging to capitulate to your beliefs if he or she does not want.

I believe you will not be able to even buy a Bible that it will be banned….worshipping god will be outlawed.
You also believe there are leftist mind control beams coming from microwaves, but hey, what does reality matter? :doh

I think everything good and moral will be criminalized.
Not if I have my way about it.
 
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