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Same Question, Or Different Question

Dragonfly

Dragonfly

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Are the below questions the exact same questions to you?

1) Are you pro-life, or pro-choice?

2) Do you believe abortion should be outlawed, or remain legal?


I tend to think they are very different questions unless there's qualifying discussion and definitions beforehand.

Do you think if these questions were randomly polled to the same people (without the qualifying discussion) over the course of a few months, that the results might be contradictory?


Isn't it quite possible for a person to honestly answer those questions in a very contradictory manner?

For example, isn't it extremely possible for a person to to say: "I am pro-life, but I do believe abortion should remain a legal option."
 
Dragonfly said:
Are the below questions the exact same questions to you?

1) Are you pro-life, or pro-choice?

2) Do you believe abortion should be outlawed, or remain legal?


I tend to think they are very different questions unless there's qualifying discussion and definitions beforehand.

Do you think if these questions were randomly polled to the same people (without the qualifying discussion) over the course of a few months, that the results might be contradictory?


Isn't it quite possible for a person to honestly answer those questions in a very contradictory manner?

For example, isn't it extremely possible for a person to to say: "I am pro-life, but I do believe abortion should remain a legal option."
Click to expand...

Red:
Every single person I know well enough to have discussed abortion as a political or legal matter holds exactly that position. I am literally the only person I know whose position differs from that.

And, yes, they're different questions: the first is political the second is legal. If one thinks the law and politics are the same things, one doesn't understand jurisprudence, politics or both.
 
Xelor said:
Red:
Every single person I know well enough to have discussed abortion as a political or legal matter holds exactly that position. I am literally the only person I know whose position differs from that.

And, yes, they're different questions: the first is political the second is legal. If one thinks the law and politics are the same things, one doesn't understand jurisprudence, politics or both.
Click to expand...

Is the first question political, or personal?
 
Xelor said:
I'm responding to your question with a question because I won't answer the question as you've posed it.

Why must it, as your question implies, be one or the other?
-- False Equivalency
Click to expand...


In your opinion, what's the difference between "personal" and "political"?


I see the "political" aspect being more aligned with the legal aspect.

You appear to see it as being more aligned with the personal aspect.

I can totally see many many people saying:

"I would never in a million years have an abortion (assuming I wasn't raped), but there is no way in hell I would ever try to prevent somebody else from having the option to abort their pregnancy."
 
Dragonfly said:
Are the below questions the exact same questions to you?

1) Are you pro-life, or pro-choice?

2) Do you believe abortion should be outlawed, or remain legal?


I tend to think they are very different questions unless there's qualifying discussion and definitions beforehand.

Do you think if these questions were randomly polled to the same people (without the qualifying discussion) over the course of a few months, that the results might be contradictory?


Isn't it quite possible for a person to honestly answer those questions in a very contradictory manner?

For example, isn't it extremely possible for a person to to say: "I am pro-life, but I do believe abortion should remain a legal option."
Click to expand...

They are different questions. Much like:

1) Do you want to own/buy a semi-auto rifle?

2) Should semi-auto rifles be banned?

One may have no personal desire to own a certain type of gun yet believe that outlawing ownership of that type of gun is beyond the power of government.
 
Dragonfly said:
In your opinion, what's the difference between "personal" and "political"?


I see the "political" aspect being more aligned with the legal aspect.

You appear to see it as being more aligned with the personal aspect.

I can totally see many many people saying:

"I would never in a million years have an abortion (assuming I wasn't raped), but there is no way in hell I would ever try to prevent somebody else from having the option to abort their pregnancy."
Click to expand...

Red:
The difference between the "personal" and "political" is the difference between a buying decision and the marketing messages designed to catalyze buying decisions.
  • Public policy is the set of provisions that form US law (specific code sections as well as regulations and precedents), applications and interpretations of it.
  • Politics is the marketing of "this or that" public policy. (Electioneering is the marketing of "this or that" politician.)
  • The "personal," as you're terming it, is any given individual's stance -- dis-/approbation of it, non-/compliance with it, etc. -- with regard to a given public policy. It's what one has "purchased" or refused to "purchase," regardless of whether politicking influenced one's "purchase decision."

Blue:
I already concurred with your explication of that point as you presented it the OP, and your presentation above is substantively the same as that earlier presentation. Why have you repeated it?
 
Dragonfly said:
Isn't it quite possible for a person to honestly answer those questions in a very contradictory manner?
Click to expand...
Well given my honest answer to the first question is “No”, they must be. :cool:
 
1. Pro-choice.

2. Abortion should remain legal in the first trimester.
 
Dragonfly said:
Because the below from you is confusing.
Click to expand...

??? -- What was confusing about my remark?
Xelor said:
Every single person I know well enough to have discussed abortion as a political or legal matter holds exactly [the position you noted]. I am literally the only person I know whose position differs from that.
Click to expand...
Did you evaluate it in concert with the other sentence in the paragraph in which it's found?
 
Dragonfly said:
Are the below questions the exact same questions to you?

1) Are you pro-life, or pro-choice?

2) Do you believe abortion should be outlawed, or remain legal?
Click to expand...

Really good question to understand where some people are coming from.

IMO the questions are different.

I'm pro-choice and believe in legalized abortion.
 
Dragonfly said:
Is the first question political, or personal?
Click to expand...

IMO it can be either, so a person could/should qualify.

Because a person can be pro-life personally but be pro-choice overall...that's what 'choice' means.
 
Lursa said:
...that's what 'choice' means.
Click to expand...

Considering most who support choice, actually do chose life. :mrgreen:

Something often overlooked by many on the opposite side of the debate.
 
Dragonfly said:
Considering most who support choice, actually do chose life. :mrgreen:

Something often overlooked by many on the opposite side of the debate.
Click to expand...

Saying "no" to abortion is a choice. I agree, many folks forget that.
 
Lursa said:
The Christian God gives us all free will...to choose.

I cant speak for all the other 'higher powers' tho.
Click to expand...

You and I both know that individual religious belief shouldn't even be a part of this conversation.

It's a shame others can't understand how hypocritical they are when it comes right down to it.
 
Dragonfly said:
Are the below questions the exact same questions to you?

1) Are you pro-life, or pro-choice?

2) Do you believe abortion should be outlawed, or remain legal?


I tend to think they are very different questions unless there's qualifying discussion and definitions beforehand.

Do you think if these questions were randomly polled to the same people (without the qualifying discussion) over the course of a few months, that the results might be contradictory?


Isn't it quite possible for a person to honestly answer those questions in a very contradictory manner?

For example, isn't it extremely possible for a person to to say: "I am pro-life, but I do believe abortion should remain a legal option."
Click to expand...

for most people i know they are very different questions...

I know lots of people that are pro-life but have that view just for themselves and would never violate the rights of others of force their views on them and i know lots of people that are prolife that have no want to "outlaw abortion" but do fight for more restrictions, regulations and information to be spread. Many prolifers simply want a more strict window than 24 weeks.
 
Let me just post this here: https://www.guttmacher.org/report/abortion-worldwide-2017

Moreover, women living under the most restrictive laws (i.e., where abortion is prohibited altogether or allowed only to save a woman’s life) have abortions at about the same rate as those living where the procedure is available without restriction as to reason (37 and 34 abortions per 1,000, respectively;
Click to expand...

Re-read that and let it sink in.

Abortion rates in the MOST restrictive countries are about equal to abortion rates in the least restrictive countries.

Prohibitive laws don't change/stop abortion.

What does work is improving contraception, improving education, and making birth control easily available.

You stop abortion by preventing unwanted pregnancy from happening in the first place. Not by outlawing abortion.
 
Dragonfly said:
Let me just post this here: https://www.guttmacher.org/report/abortion-worldwide-2017



Re-read that and let it sink in.

Abortion rates in the MOST restrictive countries are about equal to abortion rates in the least restrictive countries.

Prohibitive laws don't change/stop abortion.

What does work is improving contraception, improving education, and making birth control easily available.

You stop abortion by preventing unwanted pregnancy from happening in the first place. Not by outlawing abortion.
Click to expand...

Anybody that didnt know this basic common sense is simply out of touch with reality facts and the topic at large.
 
Dragonfly said:
Are the below questions the exact same questions to you?

1) Are you pro-life, or pro-choice?

2) Do you believe abortion should be outlawed, or remain legal?


I tend to think they are very different questions unless there's qualifying discussion and definitions beforehand.

Do you think if these questions were randomly polled to the same people (without the qualifying discussion) over the course of a few months, that the results might be contradictory?


Isn't it quite possible for a person to honestly answer those questions in a very contradictory manner?

For example, isn't it extremely possible for a person to to say: "I am pro-life, but I do believe abortion should remain a legal option."
Click to expand...

Aren't they supposedly exclusive concepts in modern society? Doesn't "pro-life" necessarily imply that you believe the unborn are examples of human life and therefore should not be aborted? And doesn't "pro-choice" imply that the choice of the pregnant woman trumps any rights that the unborn may or may not have?

I would argue that, by the traditionally accepted political definitions of the terms, it is not possible to be both pro-life and also believe that abortion should be a legal option. The desire to outlaw abortion is inherent in the political label of "pro-life."
 
Dragonfly said:
Are the below questions the exact same questions to you?

1) Are you pro-life, or pro-choice?

2) Do you believe abortion should be outlawed, or remain legal?


I tend to think they are very different questions unless there's qualifying discussion and definitions beforehand.

Do you think if these questions were randomly polled to the same people (without the qualifying discussion) over the course of a few months, that the results might be contradictory?


Isn't it quite possible for a person to honestly answer those questions in a very contradictory manner?

For example, isn't it extremely possible for a person to to say: "I am pro-life, but I do believe abortion should remain a legal option."
Click to expand...

Yes...it is possible. This is my attitude. I am pro-life...for me. So I made sure to marry someone for whom abortion wasn't an option either. These are the choices I made. My wife made her choices, and picked me for being compatible on this level as well. (Of course this wasn't the ONLY consideration...lol...but it was discussed before things got overly serious).

Fact is, any pro-life person can do this, and live their life however they like, while minding their own business and allowing others to live their life however they like. Something being legal isn't something being mandatory.
 
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