Russia's recognition of the independence of Donbass.

[Lutherf]

Ukrainians should be thankful for the Russian support. Stalin was a great leader for their nation and only starved 3 or 4 million of them to death. Heck, they even named Donetsk for Stalin at one point. Maybe this time Putin can starve 6 or 7 million to death and make life in Ukraine even better!

 

[joluoto]

Any illusion that Putin is interesting in talks are now dispelled. He wouldn't have changed his two largest chips on the table to red lines if he was interested in talks.

 

[Juin]

Ukrainians should be thankful for the Russian support. Stalin was a great leader for their nation and only starved 3 or 4 million of them to death. Heck, they even named Donetsk for Stalin at one point. Maybe this time Putin can starve 6 or 7 million to death and make life in Ukraine even better!

Dude Joseph Stalin was a Georgian. So that Ukrainian gratitude you make mention of should be directed to Tblisis, Georgia.

 

[Juin]

Any illusion that Putin is interesting in talks are now dispelled. He wouldn't have changed his two largest chips on the table to red lines if he was interested in talks.

What exactly was there to talk about? Jens Stoltenberg had vowed that Nato would not compromise on a core principle of unfettered expansion, provided it was at the invitation of some Russian neighbour with a grievance. Of course, that is nonesense.

 

[Rexedgar]

 

[Lutherf]

Dude Joseph Stalin was a Georgian. So that Ukrainian gratitude you make mention of should be directed to Tblisis, Georgia.

Stalin was Georgian in even less a way than Hitler was Austrian. Unless I'm very much mistaken, Ukraine was part of the Russian empire when Stalin was born and Ukraine, at the time, was an independent nation.

 

[Juin]

Stalin was Georgian in even less a way than Hitler was Austrian.

How does that make him a Russian?

Unless I'm very much mistaken, Ukraine was part of the Russian empire when Stalin was born and Ukraine, at the time, was an independent nation.

Ukraine was a junior partner in the Soviet project. The notion that Ukraine was just a helpless victim is an exaggeration.

 

[joluoto]

What exactly was there to talk about? Jens Stoltenberg had vowed that Nato would not compromise on a core principle of unfettered expansion, provided it was at the invitation of some Russian neighbour with a grievance. Of course, that is nonesense.

Russia doesn't have anything to say regarding countries joining NATO, that's between NATO and the applicant state.

 

[Linc]

The diplomatic term for theft is "liberation". Putin the Liberator.

lebensraum

 

[Chagos]

Russia, better said the Kremlin under Putin, lies.

Always!!!!

When it denies murdering people in Western countries, it lies.

When it denies plastering other countries with Cyberattacks, it lies.

When it denies its military involvement abroad, it lies.

When it announces withdrawal of troops from the Ukrainian border(s), it lies.

When it propagates diplomacy over (its own) outright thuggery, it lies.



In other news, water is wet.

 

[Higgins86]

He’s played the long game but we all knew this was coming. As others have pointed out he’s threatened the sovereignty of several nations in the region, had people murdered in NATO states most notably England in the last few years, he has conducted state sponsored trolling/ hacking to divide NATO countries so we are weaker and now we are starting to see the end game.

 

[Chagos]

Russia doesn't have anything to say regarding countries joining NATO, that's between NATO and the applicant state.

Yeah, but not in Vlad's world, or how he sees it (the world).

And the rest of the world, especially the EU talking heads and NATO now running around like demented hens in search of a joint response, seems to confirm his move.

For now.

Anything below the package of "the strongest sanctions ever" propagated these last weeks is going to confirm it as well.

I can already see the haggling along the lines of "the sanction threat was for the case that he would invade and he hasn't done that. So the whole envisaged package should not be applied in its totality."

They're already talking about sanctioning the oligarchs personally, not Russia as a whole. On grounds (not totally untrue) of then only hitting the people rather than the culprit(s).

I hope I'm wrong but follow the money.


Edit: Just heard that Vlad has sent "peace keeping" troops into Donbass by now. Get ready for the ride, Europe.

 

[j brown's body]

What exactly was there to talk about? Jens Stoltenberg had vowed that Nato would not compromise on a core principle of unfettered expansion, provided it was at the invitation of some Russian neighbour with a grievance. Of course, that is nonesense.

Just jamming NATO down Ukraine's throat.

 

[joluoto]

Yeah, but not in Vlad's world, or how he sees it (the world).

And the rest of the world, especially the EU talking heads and NATO now running around like demented hens in search of a joint response, seems to confirm his move.

For now.

Anything below the package of "the strongest sanctions ever" propagated these last weeks is going to confirm it as well.

I can already see the haggling along the lines of "the sanction threat was for the case that he would invade and he hasn't done that. So the whole envisaged package should not be applied in its totality."

They're already talking about sanctioning the oligarchs personally, not Russia as a whole. On grounds (not totally untrue) of then only hitting the people rather than the culprit(s).

I hope I'm wrong but follow the money.


Edit: Just heard that Vlad has sent "peace keeping" troops into Donbass by now. Get ready for the ride, Europe.

Invasion is now imminent.

 

[Higgins86]

Invasion is now imminent.

I think so as well. His rhetoric today was undeniable

 

[Roadvirus]

Just jamming NATO down Ukraine's throat.

You're mistaking NATO with the old Warsaw Pact.
With NATO, Ukraine or anyone else is free to choose membership or not.

 

[Chagos]

Invasion is now imminent.

He'll need more than 100, 150 or even 200 thou' to nail the whole of Ukraine down permanently.

But he's like a Boa Constrictor. Press, wait til the prey exhales a little, press some more, wait again and, finally, the last squeeze to allow him to feast.

Let's face it, nobody, BUT NOBODY, in the West is going to go to actual war with him over this. Because nobody cares sufficiently over Ukraine. The gubmints don't, their people even less.

The guy may suffer total reality loss but not with the enormous number of Russians (the majority still) that support him. Those don't suffer from it because reality is never presented to them in any case. They don't know that he lies all of the time.

Anecdotally: When French cheese disappeared from the Russian shelves (those for the better-off), the narrative read that the disappearance was due to the world's sanction on Russia, while it was actually a result of Russian counter- (import) sanctions.

They swallowed it all readily.

The Kremlin lies habitually and it works.

 

[j brown's body]

You're mistaking NATO with the old Warsaw Pact.
With NATO, Ukraine or anyone else is free to choose membership or not.

The impression I get from some posters is that if we just stopped pushing NATO on Ukraine, Putin would relax.

 

[joluoto]

The impression I get from some posters is that if we just stopped pushing NATO on Ukraine, Putin would relax.

Russia is the one pushing NATO on Ukraine, the more aggressive Russia is towards the Ukrainians the more they want to join.

 

[j brown's body]

Russia is the one pushing NATO on Ukraine, the more aggressive Russia is towards the Ukrainians the more they want to join.

Indeed!

 

[Juin]

Russia doesn't have anything to say regarding countries joining NATO, that's between NATO and the applicant state.

That may make sense as an academic matter. But even then I do not see how it is a case that stands up to scrutiny. An Army is a weapon, and by definition is always a threat. A military alliance is basically an aggregatge of Armies. One's neighbour engaging in a military alliance with rival powers is, and has always been a matter of concern to near by nations. It did not start with Russia. The US has, as far back as the Monroe Doctrine, also expressed its objection to rival powers encroaching in its vincinity.

 

[Juin]

The impression I get from some posters is that if we just stopped pushing NATO on Ukraine, Putin would relax.

I dont know about other posters. I can concede that it may very well make no difference whatever Nato did. But I do not see how that makes difference to the Russian objections to Nato contracting alliances in its vincinity. A military alliance taking up shop in Russia's proximity makes it a matter of Russian concern; irrespective of whether Russia has ambitions of its own or not.

 

[j brown's body]

I dont know about other posters. I can concede that it may very well make no difference whatever Nato did. But I do not see how that makes difference to the Russian objections to Nato contracting alliances in its vincinity. A military alliance taking up shop in Russia's proximity makes it a matter of Russian concern; irrespective of whether Russia has ambitions of its own or not.

It looks bad, but considering where all the aggression is coming from, its probably pretty meaningless.

Putin uses it as a pretext for aggression, but what really concerns him about NATO is not so much its military capabilities, but that they defend democracy and people want democracy. That is a personal threat to his rule.

 

[NolanVoyd]

I dont know about other posters. I can concede that it may very well make no difference whatever Nato did. But I do not see how that makes difference to the Russian objections to Nato contracting alliances in its vincinity. A military alliance taking up shop in Russia's proximity makes it a matter of Russian concern; irrespective of whether Russia has ambitions of its own or not.

There are already several (5 or 6 I think.) Nato countries on Russias border.

 

[Chagos]

The issue here is less one of rival powers encroaching on one's vicinity, even where that indeed plays a role.

The more important matter to Putin is that he fears an economically successful Ukraine on his doorstep, while his own country is actually a basket case, economically, industrially and in the field of desperately needed reforms of modernization in both instances.

The only field he's been successful in going ahead is the military.

That makes Russia powerful but in all other and far more important fields it is actually enormously weak.

So he's selling the delusion of actual strength and greatness to his people who simply just love and always have loved the image since csarist times, and he's doing that before those same people start asking why things work far better in Ukraine (actual fact even now), by screwing that country up and bringing it under his thumb.

Just like the rest of the Russian shithole, once one looks beyond Moscow and other singular entities where things actually work better.

What he fears most, much as he won't admit it, is a domestic clamor for democracy and free market economy. The upheaval in Belarussia probably had him wet himself at the time and his only answer, there and elsewhere, was and continues to be to exert control over any such threat.

His foray today into history was such a compilation of own falsification that it was laughable.

But people who really believe in the crap they spout cannot justifiably be called liars, seeing how they don't see themselves as those. Especially when their narrative is lapped up by their own addressees.

Western figures can tear their hair out over this farce, it doesn't matter. They're not the ones this is all aimed at.