Russian troops in Mariupol are making local Ukrainians dig mass graves in exchange for food and water, mayor says

[Juin]

You're confused about my point.

I am NOT confused about my point.

I'm not going to try to convince you that the claim is true because

You are NOT in Mariupol, so are not in a position to convince yourself as to the veracity of Rogue Valley's claims. All you and me can do is examine the submissions as to credibility. If you are not prepared to do that then what is your grounds for objecting to my doing so?

I know that the only pot of gold that awaits me at the end of that rainbow is you justifying the monstrous act or, just as likely, resorting to whataboutism or a false equivalence.

Its not rocket science. Rogue Valley charged Russians with placing mines in cemetaries to discourage single grave burials; does that make any rational sense to you? Logistics is a serious burden on all armies. Russians will not place mines that they went through all the trouble of ferrying in overloaded logistics just so to waste them in cemetaries. This has nothing to do with kindness. It has to do with cost and wastage.

There is no outcome in which you say, "Wow, that the Russians are making people dig their own graves is ****ing evil."

Let me ask you this, if tomorrow someone accuses Russians of running gas chambers, will you demand evidence, or you just gonna place it up in your list of Russian crimes without examination?

 

[CaughtInThe]

Never forget which of your family and friends supported Russia and Putin. Never. ever. forget.

 

[Cardinal]

I am NOT confused about my point.





You are NOT in Mariupol, so are not in a position to convince yourself as to the veracity of Rogue Valley's claims. All you and me can do is examine the submissions as to credibility. If you are not prepared to do that then what is your grounds for objecting to my doing so?






Its not rocket science. Rogue Valley charged Russians with placing mines in cemetaries to discourage single grave burials; does that make any rational sense to you? Logistics is a serious burden on all armies. Russians will not place mines that they went through all the trouble of ferrying in overloaded logistics just so to waste them in cemetaries. This has nothing to do with kindness. It has to do with cost and wastage.






Let me ask you this, if tomorrow someone accuses Russians of running gas chambers, will you demand evidence, or you just gonna place it up in your list of Russian crimes without examination?

If it were demonstrated to my satisfaction that Russians were running gas chambers, I would not pivot to justifying the gas chambers or using whataboutism or false equivalencies in order to distract from the Russian gas chambers.

 

[Roadvirus]

Exactly. It is not a war crime to attack legitimate military targets.

Tell me how the Mariupol theater was a legit military target.
And the hospitals too.

 

[Juin]

Tell me how the Mariupol theater was a legit military target.

I have seen nothing that will suggest to me that the Mariupol theater was a legitimate military target. I was addressing the specific location of Azovstahl steelworks and what makes it a legitimate military target. The presence of the Azov guys there, by their own admissions, is what makes it a legitimate military target.

And the hospitals too.

Which hospital, and what were the conditions there?

 

[Juin]

If it were demonstrated to my satisfaction that Russians were running gas chambers, I would not pivot to justifying the gas chambers or using whataboutism or false equivalencies in order to distract from the Russian gas chambers.

And was it demonstrated to your satisfaction that Russians are planting mines in cemetaries so as to discourage single grave burials? The key phrase is "demonstrated to my satisfaction". It wasnt demonstrated to my satisfaction. And it has nothing to do with Russians being monsters. What argues against that claim is the fact that soldiers at the end of a logistic line hundreds of miles long are not gonna waste precious mines hauled up to the front planting them in cemetaries. They may do it if there is good reason to believe it might be the route for an enemy attack, but not because they want to discourage burials.

 

[Cardinal]

And was it demonstrated to your satisfaction that Russians are planting mines in cemetaries so as to discourage single grave burials? The key phrase is "demonstrated to my satisfaction". It wasnt demonstrated to my satisfaction. And it has nothing to do with Russians being monsters. What argues against that claim is the fact that soldiers at the end of a logistic line hundreds of miles long are not gonna waste precious mines hauled up to the front planting them in cemetaries. They may do it if there is good reason to believe it might be the route for an enemy attack, but not because they want to discourage burials.

I know that if it was demonstrated to my satisfaction I would condemn it instead of justifying it or playing whataboutism. Would you?

 

[Juin]

I know that if it was demonstrated to my satisfaction I would condemn it instead of justifying it or playing whataboutism. Would you?

Of course, you will condemn it if it were Russians. Will you do same if it were Ukrainians? I am not inclined to believe that. The vast majority of pro Russian posters will not even acknowledge that Ukraine is a fractured country with an ethnic Russian minority which wants nothing of the project. They call them Russian agents; as if their grievances suddenly disappear because they are Russians.

 

[Cardinal]

Of course, you will condemn it if it were Russians.

Would you?

Will you do same if it were Ukrainians? I am not inclined to believe that. The vast majority of pro Russian posters will not even acknowledge that Ukraine is a fractured country with an ethnic Russian minority which wants nothing of the project. They call them Russian agents; as if their grievances suddenly disappear because they are Russians.

 

[Rogue Valley]

I think we've pretty much established that Putzin and Co don't give a tin shit about the GCs.

I know that. Napoleon doesn't seem too know that.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Russian / Putin cruelty is not surprising but is very sad, same thing can be said of Russian apologists on this forum.

 

[Peacenik]

Killing civilians is not a war crime in this context, i.e. the Ukrainian military using civilians as human shields and embedding itself in civilian infrastructure. The steel plant in Mariupol is a prime example of this and the Geneva Conventions are crystal clear - they don’t stop being legitimate targets just because they’re hiding amongst civilians.

Targeting a residential apartment building is a war crime.

 

[Peacenik]

You are going on a rant without addressing the issue. It is Fake Charges. Rogue Valley made the charges, and Rogue Valley, from all I can tell, is not in Mariupol. He just sits at his keyboard and manufactures fake charges

The war crimes committed by Russia are obvious. Bodies found with their hands bound and bullet holes in the back of the head. Apartments targeted and destroyed. When every apartment building is destroyed, that's not accidental. The real challenge is tying that to Putin.

 

[Juin]

The war crimes committed by Russia are obvious. Bodies found with their hands bound and bullet holes in the back of the head. Apartments targeted and destroyed. When every apartment building is destroyed, that's not accidental. The real challenge is tying that to Putin.

You are being evasive. Specific charges were made in this thread opener: that Russians in Mariupol are placing mines in cemetaries to discourage single grave burials. Do you care to address that?

 

[Peacenik]

You are being evasive. Specific charges were made in this thread opener: that Russians in Mariupol are placing mines in cemetaries to discourage single grave burials. Do you care to address that?

If Ukraine says it is so, and the world agrees, and Russia denies it, I believe what Ukraine and the world are reporting.

Russia has no credibility.