Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov Says Slaughter in Bucha Is a ‘Fake Attack’

[Torus34]

I've noted "Yeah, but what about . . . " posts above.

Try as I might, I cannot find a logical reason why that should be of importance in considering the morality of the subject under discussion with but one exception. It is of importance if, and only if, one is willing to define that which is moral by that which is done by more than one person/group/nation, or what have you. I do not find that specific proposition acceptable.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

 

[Gnosis]

You want a rational explanation for evil?

He's not going to believe any explanation -- rational or not. He's a paid Russian shill peddling Russian propaganda in order to shit on the US and annoy liberals. His posts are a copied and pasted script.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

I asked a serious question over a serious allegation.

Why would the Russians do this? On what basis are the Russians this evil?

Circular answer: We know Russians did this because we know they're evil. And we know they're evil because we know they did this.

Welp, time for WW3!

We know with great certainty the Russians did this because there is substantial evidence indicating they did this. We already have hundreds of eyewitness accounts. We have satellite imagery showing no dead civilians before the Russians invaded, and satellite imagery showing people dead on the ground immediately after the Russians occupied the area. We also have evidence in the form of the dead bodies themselves, and how they died. And, no, we don't need an independent investigation. We don't need anything approaching absolute certainty to arrive at a conclusion. We have enough evidence to form a conclusion and act upon that conclusion. The act we should take is to encourage Russia to gtfo out of Ukraine as soon as possible. There is no time to wait for an "independent" investigation which the Russians are their fanboys will just dismiss anyway. And what input do we need from the Russian fanboys anyway? They will just beg us to allow Ukraine to continue to be occupied just as they've been doing before and during this horrible war that Russia chose. We must act, and act now, even if the Russian fanboys cry and whine about it.

And the best way for us to avoid WW3 is for Russia to GTFO out of Ukraine. We cannot allow irresponsible nuclear armed states like Russia to bully people and manipulate people with the threat of nuclear warfare.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Latin America is America's Ukraine. Why don't we go over the track record there, to ascertain who has the moral highground to preach from?

We don't need to be perfect to do the right thing.

 

[mike2810]

Russia's not the only country with a veto. Name-dropping the word 'veto' doesn't explain its importance in this situation.

................

Why do you believe Russia is justified in attacking Ukraine?

Why do you believe Russia was justified in vetoing the UN resolution against them? Are you saying the countries that supported the UN resolution were wrong?

 

[Ikari]

Strange how you’re not responding to the posts with the satellite imagery proving that the Russians are liars.

Putin apologists aren't in this for honesty or integrity, they're in it for the Russian propaganda.

 

[sanman]

Why do you believe Russia is justified in attacking Ukraine?

Why do you believe Russia was justified in vetoing the UN resolution against them? Are you saying the countries that supported the UN resolution were wrong?

Ukraine, which is not an ethnically homogenous country, was violating the rights of its ethnic minorities. Russia's invasion is far less than USA invading Serbia and illegally carving out Kosovo. Ukraine's military had incorporated fascist groups into its ranks, who were then shelling civilian areas populated by minorities.

But anytime you hear words like mine which you don't like, you just scoff "Russian propaganda" and shut your eyes.



NATO should not have been expanded right up to Russia's borders in some crazy triumphalist way. Top US policymaking experts and scholars had repeatedly warned against this, and yet their warnings fell on deaf ears.

 

[sanman]

We don't need to be perfect to do the right thing.

Expanding NATO and playing a game of chicken with Russia was clearly the wrong thing -- and now it's led to a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[ClaraD]

The Russians are denying they carried out any massacres in Bucha, and claiming this is a fabrication

Russian foreign minister Lavrov says slaughter in Bucha is a ‘fake attack’

Mr Lavrov claims Russian troops completely withdrew from the town on March 30

www.independent.co.uk

The Russians have called an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council to take up the issue of the Bucha allegations -- but strangely, the UK which currently chairs the UN Security Council, is refusing to convene a session to discuss it.

Why is the UK blocking a UNSC meeting on Bucha? What kind of game is Britain playing? I'm worried it's a game called Fake News. Otherwise why would UK be blocking the meeting?

It's a real attack. The mayor, his wife and their young son were executed by Russian soldiers and then buried in shallow graves. This is as sick and low as Alex Jones claiming Sandy Hook was fake

 

[mike2810]

Ukraine, which is not an ethnically homogenous country, was violating the rights of its ethnic minorities. Russia's invasion is far less than USA invading Serbia and illegally carving out Kosovo. Ukraine's military had incorporated fascist groups into its ranks, who were then shelling civilian areas populated by minorities.

But anytime you hear words like mine which you don't like, you just scoff "Russian propaganda" and shut your eyes.



NATO should not have been expanded right up to Russia's borders in some crazy triumphalist way. Top US policymaking experts and scholars had repeatedly warned against this, and yet their warnings fell on deaf ears.

Funny how you drift away from Russia to the US.

You can say and post whatever you want. Does not make what you post correct.

With the majority of the world condemning Putin's action in Ukraine, you must believe they are all wrong.

 

[ClaraD]

Ukraine, which is not an ethnically homogenous country, was violating the rights of its ethnic minorities. Russia's invasion is far less than USA invading Serbia and illegally carving out Kosovo. Ukraine's military had incorporated fascist groups into its ranks, who were then shelling civilian areas populated by minorities.

But anytime you hear words like mine which you don't like, you just scoff "Russian propaganda" and shut your eyes.



NATO should not have been expanded right up to Russia's borders in some crazy triumphalist way. Top US policymaking experts and scholars had repeatedly warned against this, and yet their warnings fell on deaf ears.

Bullshit

 

[Gnosis]

Expanding NATO and playing a game of chicken with Russia was clearly the wrong thing -- and now it's led to a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Every NATO member opted into NATO membership. Why do you sacrifice national sovereignty on the altar of Russia worship?

 

[sanman]

Every NATO member opted into NATO membership. Why do you sacrifice national sovereignty on the altar of Russia worship?

What was the pressing need for the United States to be funding this NATO expansion?
What US national interest was being served by this?

Answer: You must be a Russian stooge, Mr Trump! Don't ask such questions!


You seem to have some Euro-centrist fetish, when it comes to national sovereignty.
If every Latin American country were to voluntarily go for alliance with Russia or China, then you'd want the US to sanction them. National sovereignty would suddenly disappear from your vocabulary.
Iran and North Korea want to go nuclear -- is the US recognizing their rights as sovereign nations to do so?

 

[dockside]

Strange how you’re not responding to the posts with the satellite imagery proving that the Russians are liars.

Not strange at all. Responding would reveal who he really is. No more rubles after that.

 

[ChickenTendies]

Well shelling victims generally don't shoot themselves in the back of the head and tie their hands together

Not all of them were like that.

Unless you think literally the entire thing was all staged, but at that point you might as well question whether the war is happening at all and all media footage we have seen of it is faked.

Again, never said this, I'm saying they're creating this whole narrative and making it out for more than it is. Its entirely possible Russians killed some people and committed war crimes, but to take all the casualties and point the finger to Russia solely is a stretch to say the least.

Like I'm sure there were victims of Ukrainian shelling. But there haven't even been 300 deaths in Mariupol from shelling and the city has practically been leveled.

How do you know this when there's literally nothing coming out? There's been thousands of civilian casualties.

So it is ridiculous to believe that many people died from shelling. We had reports that the Russian were shooting people moving about on the street in the days before the city was retaken. And again, the internet was down in that region. Additionally, while the Russian forces left the area on the 31st, it wasn't until April 1st than Ukrainian officials moved into the area. The CNN team went in with the first Ukrainian forces, so you'd have to believe they were in on the conspiracy too.

It is undisputed that there were bodies, the cause of death is the factor coming into question. CNN reporters aren't forensics analysists either.

So either the Russian troops killed a few hundred civilians (possibly counter occupation protesters?) which is something they have done before in previous invasions,

Why would there be a protest in a frontline warzone?

or there is an elaborate conspiracy involving multiple independent organizations and hundreds or thousands of people to pull off.

If a third party, independent investigation is conducted that lays the blame solely on Russia, then yes I will accept that. Until then, I'll withhold judgement.

 

[Gnosis]

What was the pressing need for the United States to be funding this NATO expansion?
What US national interest was being served by this?

Answer: You must be a Russian stooge, Mr Trump! Don't ask such questions!


You seem to have some Euro-centrist fetish, when it comes to national sovereignty.
If every Latin American country were to voluntarily go for alliance with Russia or China, then you'd want the US to sanction them. National sovereignty would suddenly disappear from your vocabulary.
Iran and North Korea want to go nuclear -- is the US recognizing their rights as sovereign nations to do so?

The US funded NATO expansion? In what way? In what amounts? When?

NATO is a political instrument for détente. "[T]he Alliance’s creation was part of a broader effort to serve three purposes: deterring Soviet expansionism, forbidding the revival of nationalist militarism in Europe through a strong North American presence on the continent, and encouraging European political integration."

A short history of NATO

www.nato.int

If you're unwilling to see how that serves the American national interest, then I won't waste time trying to explain it to you.

And then some sort of tangential rant about Latin America, Iran, and North Korea, which is off topic and a lazy attempt at deflection.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Expanding NATO and playing a game of chicken with Russia was clearly the wrong thing -- and now it's led to a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It was not the wrong thing. And to the degree it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, it's a sulf-fulfilling prophecy on Russia's part. Russia chose to invade Ukraine. NATO did not force Russia to invade Ukraine. And Russia's so-called interests are not more important than Ukraine's freedom and sovereignty And the war crimes we are discovering on the part of Russia are a good reason why Ukraine should fight for its freedom and independence, and why we should help them. Furthermore, it's not Russia's business what Ukraine decides to do. Ukraine has clearly rejected Russia's influence. They did it in the Orange Revolution, during Euromaidan, in their selection of Zelenskyy as their leader, and now in this current war.

Russia should just leave Ukraine. Ukraine is not Russia's business any longer.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

Why would there be a protest in a frontline warzone?

Just to pick out one thing, there have been protests every day in occupied Kherson and that is an frontline warzone.

 

[TomFitz]

The Russians are denying they carried out any massacres in Bucha, and claiming this is a fabrication

Russian foreign minister Lavrov says slaughter in Bucha is a ‘fake attack’

Mr Lavrov claims Russian troops completely withdrew from the town on March 30

www.independent.co.uk

The Russians have called an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council to take up the issue of the Bucha allegations -- but strangely, the UK which currently chairs the UN Security Council, is refusing to convene a session to discuss it.

Why is the UK blocking a UNSC meeting on Bucha? What kind of game is Britain playing? I'm worried it's a game called Fake News. Otherwise why would UK be blocking the meeting?

Really?

Then explain this!

Ukraine's Zelensky questions UN Security Council's mandate in speech on alleged Russian atrocities | CNN

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky accused Russian troops of indiscriminately killing civilians "for their pleasure" in an emotionally-charged address to the United Nations Security Council on Tuesday, a day after he visited the Kyiv suburb of Bucha, where shocking images of civilian bodies...

www.cnn.com

 

[TomFitz]

No surprise there, Russian lies about atrocities committed by Russians. Same old same old from the fascist scums running that country

They tried to blame the Nazis for their role in the Pripyat massacre as well.

Some things never change.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Russian United Nations Ambassador Vassily Nebenzia mistakenly admitted this week that dead bodies that were seen in the streets of one Ukrainian city "never existed before Russian troops arrived."

 

[Atomic Kid]

Russia's not the only country with a veto. Name-dropping the word 'veto' doesn't explain its importance in this situation.




You mean like the numerous regime changes and covert operations the US has carried out in Latin America?
You mean like the basis for the Monroe Doctrine?

You mean like the numerous right-wing deathsquads which were supported in Latin America?

Latin America is America's Ukraine. Why don't we go over the track record there, to ascertain who has the moral highground to preach from?

We aren't talking about some paramilitary group operating in the context of a civil war. What we are talking about here is UN member nation's state forces invading another sovereign UN member nation and waging warfare against it in way that directly and deliberately targets civilians, and has even taken to murdering and executing civilians, including women and children, and senior citizens in the streets and countryside in which they lived, kidnapping and driving out many others while looting their belongings. In effect state sponsored genocide. Now it has become clear to the world who the real Nazis are here.

 

[Atomic Kid]

You haven't explained to me why Russians would do this. Your typically mentally lazy answer is "Because they're Russians"
That's simply not enough.

Remember that one third of Ukraine's population are ethnic Russian minorities - how do we know these victims aren't them?

 

[Luce]

War crimes should certainly be investigated. The United Nations can certainly form an investigation committee for this.

Why is Britain blocking the UN Security Council from convening to discuss what's happened in Bucha?

Yes, I am just positive that Russia won't veto any such UN investigation.

This one is for the Hague.

And Britain is blocking it because Boris Johnson is 100% Putin's bitch.

 

[Luce]

I will withhold judgement until a 3rd party investigation is carried out.

Nobody cares about your judgment on the situation.