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Russian essay on Ukraine

EMNofSeattle

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Russian essay on Ukraine, this is an essay by a popular Russian blogger and essayist written back in 2014 about Ukraine and has been translated courtesy of the Russians with Attitude podcast. It makes an interesting argument. This is not an uncommon opinion in Russia about Ukraine broadly.



If you live in America you probably know what a civil war is. Union versus Confederation. North versus South. Yankee vs. Dixie. Americans have lost more people in this war than in all foreign wars combined in their history. Do you understand what this means? In the war with the separatist Southerners, Americans have lost more people than in two World Wars, as well as the Korean, Vietnam and all the other wars combined. And they never regretted it.

While suppressing Southern separatism, Americans have reached the deepest depths of cruelty. What is described in "Gone with the Wind" is cute nonsense compared to what was actually happening. And they never regretted it.

Because without Dixieland, America is not really America. Ukraine is a Russian Dixie. Without Ukraine, Russia is not really Russia.
Russian sovereignty over Ukraine must be restored at any cost. And Russians will restore it sooner or later. Even if they have to do terrible things to achieve it.
 

LostinThought

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Well, that was an interesting read. It does mesh with what I've heard coming out of the grapevine.
That Russians do have similar feelings to taking Ukraine back, but it's just that we're not going to be hearing it from standard news or social media. Though I do recall that some of those same whispers, said that there were many Russian soldiers who were worried for their family ties in Ukraine as well.

So it's obviously not a one way street.
 

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Russian essay on Ukraine, this is an essay by a popular Russian blogger and essayist written back in 2014 about Ukraine and has been translated courtesy of the Russians with Attitude podcast. It makes an interesting argument. This is not an uncommon opinion in Russia about Ukraine broadly.

So? Ukraine is a sovereign country. The South had their chance and they lost. Ukraine didn't.
 

RabidAlpaca

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Russian essay on Ukraine, this is an essay by a popular Russian blogger and essayist written back in 2014 about Ukraine and has been translated courtesy of the Russians with Attitude podcast. It makes an interesting argument. This is not an uncommon opinion in Russia about Ukraine broadly.

Your comparison is stupid and loaded with Russian propaganda. The confederacy was never a sovereign country. Ukraine was a sovereign country for 30 years and still is today. Further, Ukrainians are a distinct people with a distinct language. Further, Ukraine was part of the USSR, not Russia, so saying Russia can't exist without Ukraine, which it hasn't had for hundreds of years, is ridiculous and ignorant of history.

Meanwhile, the highly incompetent Russian military has suffered more losses and embarrassments in the past 3 weeks than the US has since Vietnam. You picked the wrong side, comrade.
 
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EMNofSeattle

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Your comparison is stupid and loaded with Russian propaganda. The confederacy was never a sovereign country. Ukraine was a sovereign country for 30 years and still is today. Further, Ukrainians are a distinct people with a distinct language. Further, Ukraine was part of the USSR, not Russia, so saying Russia can't exist without Ukraine, which it never had, is ridiculous and ignorant of history.

Meanwhile, the highly incompetent Russian military has suffered more losses and embarrassments in the past 3 weeks than the US has since Vietnam. You picked the wrong side, comrade.
And the winning side in the Vietnam war lost many multiples what the US did.
 

RabidAlpaca

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And the winning side in the Vietnam war lost many multiples what the US did.
I like how you ignored everything I said about Ukraine never having been part of Russia in the past 200 years and derailed your own thread by talking about Vietnam losses.

When presented with actual arguments against the lazy nonsense you repost, you clam up and refuse to engage because you know you can't.
 

EMNofSeattle

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I like how you ignored everything I said about Ukraine never having been part of Russia in the past 200 years and derailed your own thread by talking about Vietnam losses.

You are not entitled to a point by point rebuttal of every sentence.

Most of the area which now comprises “Ukraine” has been in the Russian empire since the 18th century. This is objectively true. So I don’t know what your argument is.
When presented with actual arguments against the lazy nonsense you repost, you clam up and refuse to engage because you know you can't.
 

EMNofSeattle

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So? Ukraine is a sovereign country. The South had their chance and they lost. Ukraine didn't.
Well if Russia fought a true annexation conflict and won then you would say the same thing as you do about the south?
 

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You are not entitled to a point by point rebuttal of every sentence.

Most of the area which now comprises “Ukraine” has been in the Russian empire since the 18th century. This is objectively true. So I don’t know what your argument is.
You literally didn't even try to rebut a single statement I made. Ukraine hasn't been part of Russia for over 200 years. Your claim that Russia can't be Russia without Ukraine is stupid and unsupported.

When you don't have a Russian to talk for you via copy paste, you don't have any coherent statements to make t all.
 

EMNofSeattle

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You literally didn't even try to rebut a single statement I made. Ukraine hasn't been part of Russia for over 200 years. Your claim that Russia can't be Russia without Ukraine is stupid and unsupported.
When you keep making insane and untrue statements like this it is impossible to have any productive discussion. If you want to make up details there’s nothing to talk about
When you don't have a Russian to talk for you via copy paste, you don't have any coherent statements to make t all.
This is a personal attack which you are making because you have no argument
 

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Well, that was an interesting read. It does mesh with what I've heard coming out of the grapevine.
That Russians do have similar feelings to taking Ukraine back, but it's just that we're not going to be hearing it from standard news or social media. Though I do recall that some of those same whispers, said that there were many Russian soldiers who were worried for their family ties in Ukraine as well.

So it's obviously not a one way street.



For whatever it is worth it is a good glimpse of the others side. And poses the question: is Putin closer to US General William Tecumseh Sherman or closer to Adolf Hitler?
 

EMNofSeattle

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For whatever it is worth it is a good glimpse of the others side. And poses the question: is Putin closer to US General William Tecumseh Sherman or closer to Adolf Hitler?
Sherman.

The Hitler comparison is bonkers and it’s borne out of elite America’s need to propagandize everything into comic book hero v villain narrative.

Even the Iraq war had to be sold on the Hitler narrative, remember the odious David Frum?
 

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Sherman.

The Hitler comparison is bonkers and it’s borne out of elite America’s need to propagandize everything into comic book hero v villain narrative.

Even the Iraq war had to be sold on the Hitler narrative, remember the odious David



The Hitler comparisons are reaching deafening levels, drowning out any dissent. It is also thickening the already thick fog of war. And it plays in subtle unnoticeable ways. One that came to my notice had to do with incidents around a hospital in Mariupol. Apparently the Russians captured it. But the media headlines blared out denunciations of Russians taking doctors and patients hostage. One easily notices that, conveniently, a loss by Ukrainian is not announced. And a legitimate detention of occupants of a facility by legitimate forces is mischaracterised as hostage taking. Thereby reducing legitimate combatants to illegitimate combatants. And only the Kremlin is supposed to be engaged in propaganda?
 

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When you keep making insane and untrue statements like this it is impossible to have any productive discussion. If you want to make up details there’s nothing to talk about

This is a personal attack which you are making because you have no argument
Your argument is basically as stupid as saying that since France owned the Louisiana territories a few hundred years ago, France has every right to take it back by force and France isn't complete without the Louisiana territories.

The fact that you don't see those two situations as the same is because you're a Russian sympathizer who favors Russia over his own country.
 

EMNofSeattle

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The Hitler comparisons are reaching deafening levels, drowning out any dissent. It is also thickening the already thick fog of war. And it plays in subtle unnoticeable ways. One that came to my notice had to do with incidents around a hospital in Mariupol. Apparently the Russians captured it. But the media headlines blared out denunciations of Russians taking doctors and patients hostage. One easily notices that, conveniently, a loss by Ukrainian is not announced. And a legitimate detention of occupants of a facility by legitimate forces is mischaracterised as hostage taking. Thereby reducing legitimate combatants to illegitimate combatants. And only the Kremlin is supposed to be engaged in propaganda?
It is really terrifying when you think about it. In escalating war with Russia has the potential to end in the loss of hundreds of millions of lives and reshape the global order for centuries to come, and it seems we are being driven towards that faith by ideologues.

I really relevant thinker here is the German political theorist Carl Schmitt, He wrote a short book some time before World War II called the concept of the political in which he characterizes all political disputes as fundamentally regarding a distinction between friend and enemy, and part of his thoughts are the difference between the enemy and the absolute enemy, if you set an absolute enemy whose motives you refuse to regard as legitimate even if wrong, such a conflict will necessarily spiral upwards in cruelty and severity. It appears that our elite shattering classes, have decided to regard any motivations that Vladimir Putin or the Russians have it as legitimate.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Your argument is basically as stupid as saying that since France owned the Louisiana territories a few hundred years ago, France has every right to take it back by force and France isn't complete without the Louisiana territories.

The fact that you don't see those two situations as the same is because you're a Russian sympathizer who favors Russia over his own country.
I don’t think that I’ve ever written that I favor Russia over the United States.
 

RabidAlpaca

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I don’t think that I’ve ever written that I favor Russia over the United States.
You are constantly telling us about all the things you prefer in Russia over the US and are constantly wishing that the US was a totalitarian dictatorship like Russia.

Once again, you refuse to address any of the points I actually made, because you're incapable of it. Ukraine has been an independent, sovereign country for 30 years and hasn't been part of Russia in centuries. When you can rebut that, we can talk.

The Hitler comparisons are reaching deafening levels, drowning out any dissent. It is also thickening the already thick fog of war. And it plays in subtle unnoticeable ways. One that came to my notice had to do with incidents around a hospital in Mariupol. Apparently the Russians captured it. But the media headlines blared out denunciations of Russians taking doctors and patients hostage. One easily notices that, conveniently, a loss by Ukrainian is not announced. And a legitimate detention of occupants of a facility by legitimate forces is mischaracterised as hostage taking. Thereby reducing legitimate combatants to illegitimate combatants. And only the Kremlin is supposed to be engaged in propaganda?
Russians are intentionally bombing civilian targets including those hospitals. It's fair and accurate to call them war criminals. Your defense of their war crimes is noted.
 

LostinThought

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Your argument is basically as stupid as saying that since France owned the Louisiana territories a few hundred years ago, France has every right to take it back by force and France isn't complete without the Louisiana territories.

The fact that you don't see those two situations as the same is because you're a Russian sympathizer who favors Russia over his own country.
(Straw-man fallacy detector explodes)

Damn it, I just bought that.
 

RabidAlpaca

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(Straw-man fallacy detector explodes)

Damn it, I just bought that.
If you're too lazy to make a point or rebut any of mine, I don't know why you're here. That's the argument EMN made, that because Ukraine was part of Russia once nearly 200 years ago, this invasion is justified and Russia isn't complete without them.. Read the ****ing OP.
 

EMNofSeattle

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You are constantly telling us about all the things you prefer in Russia over the US and are constantly wishing that the US was a totalitarian dictatorship like Russia.
There is many things about Russia in Russian culture that I do admire. But that does not mean loving Russia above the United States. Which is the allegation you are making. What I think you are doing, is trying to claim that I support Russia over the United States because I take a different position on Russia over Ukraine. Which is not the same thing but you equate the two in your head.
Once again, you refuse to address any of the points I actually made, because you're incapable of it. Ukraine has been an independent, sovereign country for 30 years and hasn't been part of Russia

See once again, you are just making bold face lies. If you are going to make a historical allegation that contradicts general knowledge, you need to source it and not me. I don’t know what the basis for your weird idea that Ukraine has not been part of Russia for 200 years is. My guess is that it is a highly technical argument that I would need to know in full context before I could refute it.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Putler's legacy will be Russia's permanent association with war crimes, In all his wars, injured and killed civilians have been, and are today, not collateral damage, but targets.
I mean, George W. Bush and Tony Blair are still welcome at the international cocktail parties. So I don’t think association with war crimes is as bad a thing as you make it out to be.
 

LostinThought

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If you're too lazy to make a point or rebut any of mine, I don't know why you're here. That's the argument EMN made, that because Ukraine was part of Russia once nearly 200 years ago, this invasion is justified and Russia isn't complete without them.. Read the ****ing OP.
🤦‍♂️... Okay, so where is EMN making that argument.

Come on now, you're smart... or at least I think you are.
You can at least Quote a section of his post that proves this fallacy of yours. So here's your chance.

Where is @EMNofSeattle backing Putin?
 

RabidAlpaca

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There is many things about Russia in Russian culture that I do admire. But that does not mean loving Russia above the United States. Which is the allegation you are making. What I think you are doing, is trying to claim that I support Russia over the United States because I take a different position on Russia over Ukraine. Which is not the same thing but you equate the two in your head.


See once again, you are just making bold face lies. If you are going to make a historical allegation that contradicts general knowledge, you need to source it and not me. I don’t know what the basis for your weird idea that Ukraine has not been part of Russia for 200 years is. My guess is that it is a highly technical argument that I would need to know in full context before I could refute it.
Let's start simple then, why don't you show me within the last hundred years when Ukraine was a part of Russia.

🤦‍♂️... Okay, so where is EMN making that argument.

Come on now, you're smart... or at least I think you are.
You can at least Quote a section of his post that proves this fallacy of yours. So here's your chance.

Where is @EMNofSeattle backing Putin?
You clearly didn't read the OP's article as those are the exact arguments made. Since you're too lazy to read it, I'll post an excerpt here:

"Because without Dixieland, America is not really America. Ukraine is a Russian Dixie. Without Ukraine, Russia is not really Russia. Russian sovereignty over Ukraine must be restored at any cost. And Russians will restore it sooner or later. Even if they have to do terrible things to achieve it."

It directly claims Russia isn't Russia without Ukraine and any amount of war crimes are justified to retake something Russia hasn't had for well over 100 years.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Let's start simple then, why don't you show me within the last hundred years when Ukraine was a part of Russia.
Now it’s only 100 years? We started with 200 now you’re cutting it back.

Is your argument now going to be “it was part of the Soviet Union (because the Soviet Union was comprised of the Russian Empire) not Russia?

You make your argument and we will discuss.
 
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