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Russia, Western Powers Clash At UN Over Elections In Eastern Ukraine

Rogue Valley

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Russia, Western Powers Clash At UN Over Elections In Eastern Ukraine

Russia has clashed with the United States and European powers at the United Nations over the legality of elections in areas of eastern Ukraine held by Moscow-backed separatists. During debate on the planned elections in Donetsk and Luhansk on November 11, the UN's political chief said she backed the Western view that the votes would violate a 2015 accord laying out steps for settling the conflict in eastern Ukraine. The position taken by UN political chief Rosemary DiCarlo left Russia isolated at the UN Security Council meeting. Western allies also blocked Russia from bringing a Luhansk separatist official, Olena Kravchenko, before the council to provide a briefing on the elections. Before the meeting began, a joint statement from France, the Netherlands, Poland, Sweden, the United Kingdom, Italy, Belgium, and Germany was read outside the council chamber condemning what they called "the illegitimate 'elections' planned for November 11." The statement said such elections would violate Ukrainian law and "contravene commitments" made by separatists and Russia under the 2015 agreement reached in Minsk, Belarus.

The European Union countries urged the international community to unite in opposing the elections, saying the votes "can only serve to undermine efforts to achieve peace in the region." The U.S. deputy ambassador to the UN, Jonathan Cohen, later also claimed the "sham elections staged by Russia" violated the Minsk agreement, which states that elections must be held in accordance with Ukrainian law and be supervised by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. Cohen said the Kremlin was using the elections to bolster the authorities it has installed in Donetsk and Luhansk, which he said "are inseparable from the illegal armed groups controlled by Moscow." DiCarlo said the Minsk agreements, which were endorsed by the Security Council, are the only agreed framework for a negotiated peace in eastern Ukraine. She warned that any elections held "outside Ukraine's constitutional and legal framework would be incompatible with the Minsk agreements." Ukrainian Ambassador Volodymyr Yelchenko repeated Ukraine's position that the results of what he called the "fake" November 11 elections will be "null and void."

The Geneva Conventions, the Hague Regulations, and the Minsk Protocol, together with the UNGA, US, EU, and OSCE, declare any elections in the occupied territories of Ukraine to be null and void unless held under Ukraine legislation and law and with OSCE monitors. Legal elections can only be held under the Laws of Ukraine.

According to Article 43 of the Hague Regulations:
"Article 43 bars an occupying power from extending its own legislation over the occupied territory or from acting as a sovereign legislator. It must, as a matter of principle, respect the laws in force in the occupied territory at the beginning of the occupation."

According to the Minsk II Accords:
4. On the first day after the pullout a dialogue is to start on modalities of conducting local elections in accordance with the Ukrainian legislation and the Law of Ukraine "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts," and also about the future of these districts based on the above-mentioned law.

9. Based on the Law of Ukraine "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts", questions related to local elections will be discussed and agreed upon with representatives of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts in the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group. Elections will be held in accordance with relevant OSCE standards and monitored by OSCE/ODIHR.

The Russian Federation and its pro-Russia rebels agreed with and signed the Minsk II Accords on 11 February 2015.
 

Westphalian

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The salient point you forgot to mention RV is that Ukraine has failed to properly enact its commitments under Minsk 2 clauses 4 and 9 (among others). There has been no dialogue, and there is no 'temporary order of local self governance' because Kiev hasn't got the will to face down the neo nazis and actually do it.


Thus, attempting to lay all the blame at the door of Moscow is so utterly disingenuous that it would be laughable were it not signifying the perpetuation of a civil war which is weakening Ukraine and killing Ukrainians on both sides.
 

Rogue Valley

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The salient point you forgot to mention RV is that Ukraine has failed to properly enact its commitments under Minsk 2 clauses 4 and 9 (among others).

The salient point you forgot is that Russia has to withdraw all her soldiers, mercenaries, and weapons BEFORE Ukraine can fulfill her responsibilities.

Who ever heard of being such a patsy when your territory is still occupied and the occupier still controls 418km of your border.

No other nation would put up with this. None should.
 

Westphalian

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The salient point you forgot is that Russia has to withdraw all her soldiers, mercenaries, and weapons BEFORE Ukraine can fulfill her responsibilities.

Who ever heard of being such a patsy when your territory is still occupied and the occupier still controls 418km of your border.

No other nation would put up with this. None should.


It would be salient if it was true - but it isn't.


This phased ordering you claim is not a condition of Minsk. You are peddling more fake news - what others would call lies.
 

Chagos

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It would be salient if it was true - but it isn't.


This phased ordering you claim is not a condition of Minsk. You are peddling more fake news - what others would call lies.
The one actually lying here is YOU.-

No surprise, of course.
 

Litwin

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mongol , why do you talk like you mongols have some kind of rights over Ukrainian state ? is it a fully independent country much like yours bamboostan from 1991?
 

Litwin

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Russian =/= Mongol

Stop. Just stop.

Karl Marx : "The bloody mire of Mongolian slavery, not the rude glory of the Norman epoch, forms the cradle of Muscovy, and modern "Russia" is but a metamorphosis of Muscovy."
 

Westphalian

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The one actually lying here is YOU.-

No surprise, of course.


What is untrue about what I said?


I'm calling your bluff Chagos. RV claimed that Russia needed to withdraw all forces from Ukraine before Kiev can fulfill its obligations under Minsk. There is no such requirement under Minsk, and there is no practical reason why Ukraine can not start dialogue with the separatists and pass a temporary enabling law.


So what's the lie?

I'll say you're the one lying ..... making false accusations based on either ignorance or just plain trollery.


PS I see your post got a like from Litwin ........ fine company to keep :)
 

Westphalian

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Russian =/= Mongol

Stop. Just stop.



:applaud:applaud


Pure and simple Fleder. However much we may disagree, Litwin's mindless quasi racist nonsense must stop and thanks for pointing it out.
 

Chagos

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What is untrue about what I said?


I'm calling your bluff Chagos. RV claimed that Russia needed to withdraw all forces from Ukraine before Kiev can fulfill its obligations under Minsk. There is no such requirement under Minsk, and there is no practical reason why Ukraine can not start dialogue with the separatists and pass a temporary enabling law.


So what's the lie?

I'll say you're the one lying ..... making false accusations based on either ignorance or just plain trollery.


PS I see your post got a like from Litwin ........ fine company to keep :)
1) Anyone studying the text of Minsk II (specifically measures 2), 3) and 10) will see who is lying here (post # 4 continues to refer).

2) whoever likes the post of whoever is totally irrelevant in this context.

I maintain that you are lying.
 

Chagos

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Yeah, this Mongol thing is really silly.
 

Rogue Valley

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US Embassy: Sham ‘elections’ in Donbas satisfy none of conditions for holding them

11/10/18
Real local elections in eastern Ukraine would be monitored by Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE/ODIHR) and would comply with Ukrainian law and OSCE standards, the U.S. Embassy in Ukraine has said. The Nov. 11 sham “elections” – for fictitious entities backed by Russia – satisfy none of these conditions,” the embassy said on Friday in the Twitter social network.


EU Again Condemns 'Elections' In Separatist-Held Parts Of Ukraine

11/10/18
The European Union has issued a statement rejecting "elections" scheduled for November 11 in the separatist-controlled parts of eastern Ukraine, saying that they are a breach of international law and undermine the Minsk agreements aimed at resolving the conflict in Ukraine. "The EU considers the 'elections' planned for November 11, 2018, in the non-government-controlled territories of the so-called 'Luhansk People's Republic' and 'Donetsk People's Republic' as illegal and illegitimate and will not recognize them," the November 10 EU statement said. The European Union, the United States, and UN Undersecretary-General for Political Affairs Rosemary DiCarlo have previously rejected the planned votes. Ukraine has also denounced the polls, which according to the 2015 Minsk agreements should be held under Ukrainian law.

"I expect that the fake elections that Russia decided to hold on November 11 will prompt the imposition of new sanctions and show that the West's patience is not unlimited," said Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko on November 7. "It is time now to talk not about easing the sanctions on Russia but about tightening them." Russia provides military, political, and economic support to the separatist-controlled areas of eastern Ukraine. In November 2016, the International Criminal Court (ICC) determined the conflict to be "an international armed conflict between Ukraine and the Russian Federation."

The United Nations views these eastern Ukraine elections held under Russian military occupation as illegal and a sham.
 

Westphalian

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1) Anyone studying the text of Minsk II (specifically measures 2), 3) and 10) will see who is lying here (post # 4 continues to refer).

2) whoever likes the post of whoever is totally irrelevant in this context.

I maintain that you are lying.



:lamo

Show me the text in Minsk 2 which supports RV's contention - please quote it.


I'll save you the trouble - you can't because it isn't there. So let's move on and please be more discerning about the use of that 'l' world.:)
 

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Karl Marx : "The bloody mire of Mongolian slavery, not the rude glory of the Norman epoch, forms the cradle of Muscovy, and modern "Russia" is but a metamorphosis of Muscovy."

And?

The bloody mire of Mongolian slavery refers to the serfdom the Russians suffered due to the Mongols. Not that the Russians WERE Mongols...

Russian =/= Mongol.

Please read a history book. And Muscovy was but one of the pricedoms that existed in Russia..
 

Chagos

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:lamo

Show me the text in Minsk 2 which supports RV's contention - please quote it.


I'll save you the trouble - you can't because it isn't there. So let's move on and please be more discerning about the use of that 'l' world.:)
You can play these silly games with yourself til you develop even more intellectual hernia, your claim that there is no provision in Minsk II for pullout of all foreign armed formations, military equipment, and also mercenaries from the territory of Ukraine remains a lie.

And if you insist on maintaining your lie, there's no need for further response since I won't address lying beyond pointing it out.
 

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And?

The bloody mire of Mongolian slavery refers to the serfdom the Russians suffered due to the Mongols. Not that the Russians WERE Mongols...

Russian =/= Mongol.

Please read a history book. And Muscovy was but one of the pricedoms that existed in Russia..

i know history much batter then you my friend , in Romania, Turkey, Ukraine, Belarus, etc. rus´ is Ukraine , term Muscovy was in use in 20c , and even today. i can say today more and more
 

Westphalian

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You can play these silly games with yourself til you develop even more intellectual hernia, your claim that there is no provision in Minsk II for pullout of all foreign armed formations, military equipment, and also mercenaries from the territory of Ukraine remains a lie.

And if you insist on maintaining your lie, there's no need for further response since I won't address lying beyond pointing it out.


Blatant mis-representation, and totally unworthy of you. Please stop twisting everything in such a pathetic manner Chagos :roll:.


The point I am making, which you know very well because you're not stupid, is that there is nothing in Minsk which requires Russia to act first and thereby absolves Ukraine from a requirement to fulfil its own obligations.
 

Chagos

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When it's pointed out that I'm done with a dishonest line of argument, not understanding that is the problem of the so afflicted.
 

Abbazorkzog

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i know history much batter then you my friend , in Romania, Turkey, Ukraine, Belarus, etc. rus´ is Ukraine , term Muscovy was in use in 20c , and even today. i can say today more and more

Both your side and the Russians need to quit this petty sibling rivalry and ****kicking. Sooner or later it could blow up or spill over into other countries because of your stupidity and racism.
 

Westphalian

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Both your side and the Russians need to quit this petty sibling rivalry and ****kicking. Sooner or later it could blow up or spill over into other countries because of your stupidity and racism.


Lithuanians are not siblings of Russians, and there is no rivalry because, to be truthful, the entire global population of Lithuanians could fit into one small city anywhere in the world.


The issue is Litwin's quasi racist Mongol nonsense and his attempt to spread hate.
 

Rogue Valley

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What is untrue about what I said? I'm calling your bluff Chagos. RV claimed that Russia needed to withdraw all forces from Ukraine before Kiev can fulfill its obligations under Minsk. There is no such requirement under Minsk

It is impossible for Ukraine to fulfill her Minsk obligations in Ukrainian territories where Ukraine has no sovereign control. no border control, and a military occupation exists.

This is why Point 10 is a critical part of the Minsk II Accords:

10. Pullout of all foreign armed formations, military equipment, and also mercenaries from the territory of Ukraine under OSCE supervision. Disarmament of all illegal groups.


convoy.jpg


Above. Ukraine is not allowed into her territories (light green), occupied and controlled by the Russian military.

The dotted red lines are Russian military supply routes as denoted by the OSCE (Minsk monitor).

----------

The Westphalian dodge (top) is simply Russian troll whataboutism to change the topic.

The UN Undersecretary-General for Political Affairs Rosemary DiCarlo has already specified that any elections in the occupied territories not held in accordance with Minsk II are illegal.

These are illegal said Mrs. DiCarlo.
 

Chagos

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~............................The Westphalian dodge (top) is simply Russian troll whataboutism to change the topic...........~
I don't even bother meeting his lies with facts anymore. Just pointing out the dishonesties is already more attention than his distortions really deserve.
 

Rogue Valley

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I don't even bother meeting his lies with facts anymore. Just pointing out the dishonesties is already more attention than his distortions really deserve.

Habit. But I should probably take his posts for what they are, namely Kremlin disinformation, misinformation, lies, propaganda, and troll bric-a-brac.
 
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