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Russia trains for large-scale war

apdst

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Who cares? They lost, their ideology was thrown down into the trash heap of bad ideas, their lies were exposed.

They are no more.

People should not be flying the flag of a nation the US has defeated and obliterated.

It's historical fact. Either you want to discuss it, or not.

People shouldn't be flying the Union Jack, or the Bandera de Mexico? You must hate the **** out of people who wave the Bandera de Mexico at Democrat rallies.
 

apdst

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Lee was an Army engineer hacker who before the war had the nick "King of Spades" for all the ditches he dug from California to South Carolina. From the rank of major on up Lee had the nick Marble Man.

Most of the supporters of Lee and Confederate soldier-traitors are E-4 hacks or E-7 hackers retired who have limited or zero education and training in tactics, strategy, operations. They fashion themselves as armchair generals who praise what were eccentric Confederate generals who were wild whoopers that ran themselves and their armies into the ground.

The Confederate generals contrasted negatively against the professionals Lincoln called on beginning in 1863 to go at 'em and to win what had been up to that point a tentative war of Union avoidance. We're talking now of Grant, Sherman, Sheridan, Meade, among others to include the foster brothers the Admirals Farragut and David Dixon Porter:


image005.jpg

Union Civil War Admirals and foster brothers, David Farragut, and David Dixon Porter.

David Farragut was adopted by a Navy Captain -- later Commodore Wm. Porter -- and went to sea at age nine, being wounded at age 12 at Valparaiso Bay, Chile, against the British in 1814. At age 24 Lt. David Farragut commanded the USS Ferret against pirates in the Caribbean. In the civil war Farragut and his sailors famously won the naval battles of Mobile, New Orleans and defeated the Confederate navy at Vicksburg after running the guns of the fortress city.

image003.jpg

Admiral David Farragut 1863.


Confederate generals were undisciplined children by comparison. More like another of the Right's heroes who is currently commander in chief.

That's some of the worst spin on history I've ever seen.
 

Obscurity

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It's historical fact. Either you want to discuss it, or not.

People shouldn't be flying the Union Jack, or the Bandera de Mexico? You must hate the **** out of people who wave the Bandera de Mexico at Democrat rallies.

I don't pay attention to Mexico.

Was the civil war fought over states rights or slavery?
 

Fledermaus

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Lee was an Army engineer hacker who before the war had the nick "King of Spades" for all the ditches he dug from California to South Carolina. From the rank of major on up Lee had the nick Marble Man.

Wrong. Lee served as CAVALRY after 1855 from the rank of major on up until resigning.

Most of the supporters of Lee and Confederate soldier-traitors are E-4 hacks or E-7 hackers retired who have limited or zero education and training in tactics, strategy, operations.

This is both an ignorant statement and a slam against NCOs in general. Tangmo likes to try to insult NCOs when they take him to task on his flawed history.

Lets take them one at a time:

E-4 - There was no "E-4" per say in the Confederate Army. Going by rank an "E-4" would likely be a "First Sergeant"
E-7 - There is no "E-7" in the Confederate Army.
"hacks or hackers" is simply Tangmo insulting military members.
"retired" - an insult towards current day retirees.
"limited or zero education and training in tactics, strategy, operations" - Another attempted insult. And it is inaccurate given that the modern does indeed train NCOs and SNCO in these very things..

They fashion themselves as armchair generals who praise what were eccentric Confederate generals who were wild whoopers that ran themselves and their armies into the ground.

Praise goes where it is deserved. There are posters on this board that ignore everything Lee and other Confederate generals did positively. Those of us who understand history call those folks fools.

The Confederate generals contrasted negatively against the professionals Lincoln called on beginning in 1863

Lincoln "called on" these folks in 1863? What? They were on the bench prior to that? No... The were fighting and often losing.

to go at 'em and to win what had been up to that point a tentative war of Union avoidance.

The underlined is complete poppycock...

McClellan's Peninsula Campaign in spring of 1862 being one of the offensive forays... Thrown back by Johnston and later Lee McClellan retreated.

In 1862 were also Grants offensive battles at Fort Henry and Fort Donelson....

In April 1862, the Union Navy captured New Orleans.

Hmmmmmmmmmm

Some "avoidance".

We're talking now of Grant, Sherman, Sheridan, Meade, among others to include the foster brothers the Admirals Farragut and David Dixon Porter:

<Snipped Padding>

Confederate generals were undisciplined children by comparison. <Snipped TRUMP card>

What an ignorant statement.

Like something someone with no military background would say.
 

Dutch

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And I prefer the British since you know, they didn't murder a bunch of people.

Tell that to the nations and peoples they colonized.

Britain’s colonial crimes deserve a lasting memorial. Here’s why



And his baseless figures are routinely ignored by actual historians.

I mean honestly, a basic look at demographic figures shows how ridiculous that is. The Soviet population in 1926 was 147 million, 11 years later it was 162 million. You expect anyone to believe that in 11 years Stalin wiped out 43 million people, yet managed to keep the birthrate up so high that they managed to not only cover their losses but then add another 15 million to their population?

Well, in a healthy academia you need differences of opinion. However, until such time as you can produce an academitician with Rummel's chops I'll consider the new information. However, as florin points out..........

100 Million Victims of Communism


...Perhaps it is, as Florin suggested above, because modern students hear relatively little about the ruthlessness and brutality of 20th century communism? Perhaps it is because in academia there has traditionally been greater sympathy for communist ideals and this influences to what degree the crimes of communist regimes have been emphasized? I am only a historian of medieval Europe, so this is not my area of specialty, but I intend to talk with some colleagues who are specialists and think and read about this topic a bit more as time will allow. I’ll report back...



Actually it's truth. It's called Generallan Ost, or General (Master) Plan for the East. The Poles were to be exterminated, so that's 40 million dead. The Soviet population (At 1941 was around 193-196 million) was to be split (roughly) into thirds, one third exterminated (roughly 65 million killed), another third expelled to Siberia to form a bulwark against Asia (but given the environment of Siberia, that's basically a death sentence). The remaining third were to be enslaved and used as slave labor for German farms in occupied Eastern Europe. Once they had outlived their usefulness (since the Nazis tended to just work their slaves to death), they would be killed.

The actual details varied based on iterations of the plan, in some cases 50% of the Russian population was to be exterminated and only 15% sent to Siberia, but you get the gist. Lot of dead Slavs.

Add that on top of Yugoslavs, Jews, Baltics, and Gypsies and you get a death count that dwarfs any other regime in history.

So yeah, lesser of two evils and all that.

I can plan to kill my neighbor. However, unless I make that plan a reality.........my neighbor is still alive.

The reality is the nazis killed fewer people in the 20th century than the communists. However much you may sympathize with the communists they're still the greatest killers of the twentieth century.
 

Tom Horn

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so should there be a " Russian war " what will they do with all the oil they cant possibly refine.
or the nickle?
i guess they could use their gold to pay the soldiers families, but how do they get the MO to strengthen the steel for new build armor?
 

Tom Horn

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I don't pay attention to Mexico.

Was the civil war fought over states rights or slavery?

it was fought for the opressive import tarrifs assigned only to southern ports.
 

TheParser

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Russia would be UNwise to start a war.

It might get its butt kicked, not to mention the probable overthrow of Czar Putin.

Some reports say that Russian soldiers are treated badly and would not be enthusiastic about giving their lives for the crooks in the Kremlin.
 

American

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Your opinion will be given all the consideration it deserves.

V0t8iqr.gif

This is his usual line, everyone gets it at least once. So be proud you're included. :lol:
 

Jredbaron96

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Tell that to the nations and peoples they colonized.

Yeah it was terrible. Still not as bad as Stalin.

Well, in a healthy academia you need differences of opinion. However, until such time as you can produce an academitician with Rummel's chops I'll consider the new information.

If you're only source is Rummel you need better sources.

http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/WCR-Scale_Repression.pdf

http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/WCR-German_Soviet.pdf

Contributors

Here. Educate yourself.

Stalin is still a mass murderer, as he was a high functioning psychopath, but if we're going to label the man a monster we can at least have the integrity to get the numbers right.

Stalin is responsible for the deaths of 7-10 million people. Those are still massive numbers and don't make him any less of a monster, but that still is far behind Hitler.

I can plan to kill my neighbor. However, unless I make that plan a reality.........my neighbor is still alive.

The plan didn't become a reality thanks in large part to the Soviet Union killing millions of German soldiers.

Let's not pretend like it's something hard to choose between; A Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe is far less bloody than a German one.
 

Tangmo

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The Confederates inflicted more casualties per capita, too. Your spin doesn't really work.

It can't be "more too" of the identical category, i.e., casualties per capita. Your logic and understanding are fly by night.



Europeans started tye slave trade in North America. Thank the Dutch for bringing the first slaves to the colonies.

They brought the slaves to the Wasp racists in the colonies who bought 'em. Some colonists outgrew most of their Wasp racism. Most colonists in the South only increased in their Wasp racism however. Those many Southern colonists intensified their Wasp racism to include of course in Louisiana. Georgia was destroyed for their own particular racism during the civil war, as were most of the Carolinas. The Wasp blatant racism is still in the South to include many but not all the swamp towns and counties in particular.




That's some of the worst spin on history I've ever seen.

You're strong suit is not history. Your strong suit is flash in the pan posts and fly by night logic and reasoning. Your strong suit is to make us laff. :lamo
 

Tangmo

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Wrong. Lee served as CAVALRY after 1855 from the rank of major on up until resigning.



This is both an ignorant statement and a slam against NCOs in general. Tangmo likes to try to insult NCOs when they take him to task on his flawed history.

Lets take them one at a time:

E-4 - There was no "E-4" per say in the Confederate Army. Going by rank an "E-4" would likely be a "First Sergeant"
E-7 - There is no "E-7" in the Confederate Army.
"hacks or hackers" is simply Tangmo insulting military members.
"retired" - an insult towards current day retirees.
"limited or zero education and training in tactics, strategy, operations" - Another attempted insult. And it is inaccurate given that the modern does indeed train NCOs and SNCO in these very things..



Praise goes where it is deserved. There are posters on this board that ignore everything Lee and other Confederate generals did positively. Those of us who understand history call those folks fools.



Lincoln "called on" these folks in 1863? What? They were on the bench prior to that? No... The were fighting and often losing.



The underlined is complete poppycock...

McClellan's Peninsula Campaign in spring of 1862 being one of the offensive forays... Thrown back by Johnston and later Lee McClellan retreated.

In 1862 were also Grants offensive battles at Fort Henry and Fort Donelson....

In April 1862, the Union Navy captured New Orleans.

Hmmmmmmmmmm

Some "avoidance".



<Snipped Padding>



What an ignorant statement.

Like something someone with no military background would say.


You missed everything I posted and I posted accurately. I referred for instance to present day retired E-4 and E-7 supporters of CSA, not of the civil war because of course yes, there weren't any such ranks in the civil war. Your errors of reading and understanding are grotesque and they reflect how much you are off in your own right wing and Confederate world and your eternal opposition to my being at DP.


Grant and Sherman made plan that ended Civil War

1402945970000-CINCpt-06-15-2014-Enquirer-1-AA012-2014-06-13-IMG-A---Burnet-Housejpg-1-1-Q27F1609-L429499964-IMG-A---Burnet-Housejpg-1-1-Q27F1609.jpg

Generals Grant and Sherman met in Cincinnati's historic Burnet House hotel and planned the strategy that ended the Civil War.

On March 20, 1864, two of the Union's most celebrated generals, Ulysses S. Grant and William Tecumseh Sherman, holed up in a parlor of the Burnet House, an elegant hotel at the northwest corner of Third and Vine streets, to devise a strategy to crush the Confederacy.

"Sight seekers thronged the hotel," the newspaper reported, but there were no speeches or public announcements. No one knew what was going on behind closed doors. The result of that meeting would be borne out over the next year, effectively bringing victory for the Union.

In 1864, the war was turning in the Union's favor and President Abraham Lincoln finally found an effective military commander in Grant. Grant may have been overly fond of cigars and Old Crow bourbon, but he had success on the battlefield, notably the siege at Vicksburg and the Battle of Chattanooga.

So, in March 1864, Lincoln promoted Grant to lieutenant general – making him only the third man in U.S. history, after George Washington and Winfield Scott, to hold that rank – and made him general-in-chief in command of all the Union armies. Grant wired Sherman to join him in Nashville to discuss military reassignments, and to accompany him as far as Cincinnati on his way to Washington, D.C., to assume command.

Col. S. M. Bowman, a member of Sherman's staff, described the scene in "Sherman and His Campaigns":

"In a parlor of the Burnet House, at Cincinnati, bending over their maps, the two generals, who had so long been inseparable, planned together that colossal structure ... and, grasping one another firmly by the hand, separated, one to the east, the other to the west, each to strike at the same instant his half of the ponderous death-blow."

Grant, in his autobiography, explained that Sherman was to attack Gen. Joseph Johnston's army in the South and capture Atlanta and the railroads, effectively cutting the Confederacy in two. Grant was to pummel Gen. Robert E. Lee in Richmond, Virginia.

Sherman famously summed up their strategy: "We finally settled on a plan. He was to go for Lee, and I was to go for Joe Johnston. That was his plan. It was the beginning of the end as Grant and I foresaw it here ..."


Grant and Sherman made plan that ended Civil War
 

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Yeah it was terrible. Still not as bad as Stalin.



If you're only source is Rummel you need better sources.

http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/WCR-Scale_Repression.pdf

http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/WCR-German_Soviet.pdf

Contributors

Here. Educate yourself.

Stalin is still a mass murderer, as he was a high functioning psychopath, but if we're going to label the man a monster we can at least have the integrity to get the numbers right.

Stalin is responsible for the deaths of 7-10 million people. Those are still massive numbers and don't make him any less of a monster, but that still is far behind Hitler.



The plan didn't become a reality thanks in large part to the Soviet Union killing millions of German soldiers.

Let's not pretend like it's something hard to choose between; A Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe is far less bloody than a German one.

Well, I read it. You are free to choose Wheatcroft. I'm fine with Rummel's work.
 

Jredbaron96

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Well, I read it. You are free to choose Wheatcroft. I'm fine with Rummel's work.

"I prefer the information that doesn't stand up to the most basic logical scrutiny but it agrees with my beliefs."

Smooth.
 

Fledermaus

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You missed everything I posted and I posted accurately. I referred for instance to present day retired E-4 and E-7 supporters of CSA, not of the civil war because of course yes, there weren't any such ranks in the civil war. Your errors of reading and understanding are grotesque and they reflect how much you are off in your own right wing and Confederate world and your eternal opposition to my being at DP.

There is no Confederacy for anyone to support today.

Ergo any ranks supporting it must have been in the past.

And has ANY person voiced support for the Confederacy of the past?

Post number?

<Snipped padding>
 

Dutch

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"I prefer the information that doesn't stand up to the most basic logical scrutiny but it agrees with my beliefs."

Smooth.

So somehow you are have been appointed master of “logical scrutiny.” Awww, hell I didn’t get that memo.

dubious-man-glasses.jpg
 

Jredbaron96

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So somehow you are have been appointed master of “logical scrutiny.” Awww, hell I didn’t get that memo.

The good news for you is you can join me by doing simple arithmetic and realizing that ability of Russian women to make up the massive losses in population postulated by your sources might be just a bit too much.

I mean, your source goes on to say that the USSR murdered 60 million of it's own people.

So between 1922-1950 the USSR lost 87 million people (60 million of their own people murdered by the Soviets, 27 million WW2 casualties) and yet the managed to not only cover their losses by make enough babies to rise their population to 200 million by 1950.

For some reason I have just a little bit of doubt about that.
 

Tangmo

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Tell that to the nations and peoples they colonized.

Britain’s colonial crimes deserve a lasting memorial. Here’s why


.

Many people in Hong Kong want the British back.

The Brits civil law and civil society of freedom and liberty beats hands down the CCP Dictator-Tyrants of Beijing. Hong Kong's education system now teaches one party rule is the wisdom of the Chinese ancients into the present and, of course, the future. For everyone in the world.

Not.

image.jpg


Hong Kong democracy activists demand return to British governance.

0107_Honkers_Reute_3360389b-xlarge_trans++pJliwavx4coWFCaEkEsb3kvxIt-lGGWCWqwLa_RXJU8.jpg



Russia hasn't ever been any better. Yet Republicans/Conservatives in USA favor Russia and Putin over their own Constitution.
 

Dutch

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The good news for you is you can join me by doing simple arithmetic and realizing that ability of Russian women to make up the massive losses in population postulated by your sources might be just a bit too much.

I mean, your source goes on to say that the USSR murdered 60 million of it's own people.

So between 1922-1950 the USSR lost 87 million people (60 million of their own people murdered by the Soviets, 27 million WW2 casualties) and yet the managed to not only cover their losses by make enough babies to rise their population to 200 million by 1950.

For some reason I have just a little bit of doubt about that.

You can be "doubtful" of anything you want. I'm a conservative, not a white leftist. You are free to your own beliefs.

Having said all that being a white leftist, an assumption on my part feel free to correct me if you want, I understand you are predisposed to favor the lower figures. The nazis were/must be the ultimate baddies and everyone's a nazi but you and yours. It's part and parcel of your belief system. I get that.

I also reject that belief system. As far as I'm concerned whatever version of socialism/communism you prefer you and yours are little different from the national socialists. You're all just variations of a theme.....collectivists.

Don't celebrate Karl Marx. His Communism has a death count in the millions.

...Marx, perhaps blinded by Hegel, never recognized the inherent danger of Leviathan. Nor did Marx explain how communism would actually arise after the demolition of capitalism. Equally important, he never even attempted to reveal how the State would “wither away” after the “dictatorship of the proletariat” commenced. Marx’s humanitarian piffle did nothing to deter Lenin from decreeing that “liberty is so precious that it must be rationed.”

Marxists assumed that vastly increasing government power was the key to liberating humanity. Glorifying command-and-control was the flipside of demonizing prices and profits. But all-powerful regimes quickly became ends in themselves. In 1932, Soviet dictator Josef Stalin decreed the death penalty for any theft of state property. As millions of Ukrainians were starving due to the brutal collectivization of farms, even children poaching a few ears of corn could be shot.

Marx continues to appeal to social justice warriors thanks to axioms such as “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” And who determines “need”? The presumably omniscient, benevolent State. Marxism promised to end the “class struggle” but did so by subjugating almost everyone to officialdom. Abolishing private property left people hostage to petty government officials who punished anyone who failed to kowtow to the latest dictates...
 

Abbazorkzog

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You can be "doubtful" of anything you want. I'm a conservative, not a white leftist. You are free to your own beliefs.

Having said all that being a white leftist, an assumption on my part feel free to correct me if you want, I understand you are predisposed to favor the lower figures. The nazis were/must be the ultimate baddies and everyone's a nazi but you and yours. It's part and parcel of your belief system. I get that.

I also reject that belief system. As far as I'm concerned whatever version of socialism/communism you prefer you and yours are little different from the national socialists. You're all just variations of a theme.....collectivists.

Don't celebrate Karl Marx. His Communism has a death count in the millions.

the internet equivalent of this:

triggggg.jpg

hqdefault.jpg

trigglypuff.jpg
 

Dutch

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Many people in Hong Kong want the British back.

The Brits civil law and civil society of freedom and liberty beats hands down the CCP Dictator-Tyrants of Beijing. Hong Kong's education system now teaches one party rule is the wisdom of the Chinese ancients into the present and, of course, the future. For everyone in the world.

Not.

image.jpg


Hong Kong democracy activists demand return to British governance.

0107_Honkers_Reute_3360389b-xlarge_trans++pJliwavx4coWFCaEkEsb3kvxIt-lGGWCWqwLa_RXJU8.jpg


I vividly remember all those leaders of Hong Kong looking forward to their "reunification" with the communist mainland when the British withdrew. I suppose it was a matter of patriotism. Mebbe' they should have been less naive than they were.


Russia hasn't ever been any better. Yet Republicans/Conservatives in USA favor Russia and Putin over their own Constitution.

I'm also old enough to remember when Democratic Senator Teddy Kennedy, the lion of the senate, offered to help the Soviets undercut President Reagan for their help in becoming president.

The truth of the matter is after two years and what amounts to a coup attempt by members of the FBI there was no collusion between the russians and trump. It just doesn't exist.


Ted Kennedy's Soviet Gambit

....Kennedy's message was simple. He proposed an unabashed quid pro quo. Kennedy would lend Andropov a hand in dealing with President Reagan. In return, the Soviet leader would lend the Democratic Party a hand in challenging Reagan in the 1984 presidential election. "The only real potential threats to Reagan are problems of war and peace and Soviet-American relations," the memorandum stated. "These issues, according to the senator, will without a doubt become the most important of the election campaign."

Kennedy made Andropov a couple of specific offers.

First he offered to visit Moscow. "The main purpose of the meeting, according to the senator, would be to arm Soviet officials with explanations regarding problems of nuclear disarmament so they may be better prepared and more convincing during appearances in the USA." Kennedy would help the Soviets deal with Reagan by telling them how to brush up their propaganda.

Then he offered to make it possible for Andropov to sit down for a few interviews on American television. "A direct appeal ... to the American people will, without a doubt, attract a great deal of attention and interest in the country. ... If the proposal is recognized as worthy, then Kennedy and his friends will bring about suitable steps to have representatives of the largest television companies in the USA contact Y.V. Andropov for an invitation to Moscow for the interviews. ... The senator underlined the importance that this initiative should be seen as coming from the American side."

Kennedy would make certain the networks gave Andropov air time--and that they rigged the arrangement to look like honest journalism.....
 

Dutch

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the internet equivalent of this:

triggggg.jpg

hqdefault.jpg

trigglypuff.jpg




Interesting enough pictures, tho a bit too blurry, but they don't represent actual debate.

I'll tell ya' what, when you are capable of advancing cogent thought or two why don't you get back in touch with me and we can, you know, debate them.
 

Rogue Valley

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Interesting enough pictures, tho a bit too blurry, but they don't represent actual debate.

I'll tell ya' what, when you are capable of advancing cogent thought or two why don't you get back in touch with me and we can, you know, debate them.

I see you're still hijacking threads with 'whataboutism' to get the spotlight off of Russia.
 
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