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Russia makes moves to annex separatist regions in Ukraine

EnigmaO01 said:
Let's hope Putin is bluffing, and calling his bluff, as far as potentially using nukes, won't come to fruition, because I don't see Ukraine or NATO backing off, as any form capitulation -- as in allowing annexing of Ukraine territory -- only leads to other problems. Putin is attempting to hold Ukraine and the west hostage, which can't be allowed.
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The mistake of being silent (or only "reasonably" loud) after Chechnya, Syria and Crimea must NOT be repeated by the West and is NOT something to be returned to.
EnigmaO01 said:
A ray of hope I see, which tells me Putin may be bluffing, is when Ukraine struck the Russian Black Sea headquarters in Crimea, which the Russian's stole and annexed as their own territory, Putin did nothing except withdraw his Black Sea headquarters. And don't forget when the pride of the Russia fleet Moskav was sunk there wasn't any appreciable escalation either.
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Putin has no knowledge of military strategy whatsoever, he's a KGB child. That makes him a conniver, a manipulator, a disinformation champion, a pathological liar and, yes, a bluffer. As in "gambler".

Of course the gambling angle can always result in over-playing one's hand, except that in any such case it won't just be the card holder going broke. But that's still not a good reason for all others to throw down their cards.

Forgive the harmless analogy regarding stakes, there is of course much more at risk
EnigmaO01 said:
Is it possible if Putin is removed his fellow thugs would be removed along with him or scurry for cover like the cockroaches they are? And don't forget Russia is quickly becoming emasculated with severe economic sanctions, which could be used as a bargaining chip to convince them they are on a road that is not good for Russia if Putin is removed. As tough as the Russian people are they may only accept poor economic conditions so long if they also see no good outcome for Putin's escapade in Ukraine. And don't forget the body bags coming back.
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It's a bit (to me) like expecting, in the past, the German populace bowing to the Allied bombardments to the point of ousting the Nazi regime, while the bombardments actually served to have the people close ranks in general hatred of the bombers.

Patriotism of the totally nationalistic variety is a strong poison and can be most easily abused by just about anyone having the necessary wherewithal. Outside pressure if a convenient tool.

Putin fears his own more than the "liberals" that he's as good as silenced with brutality by now. And "his own" are now the ones that are not clamoring to end the war, but rather those that want him to expand it.
 
Chagos said:
The mistake of being silent (or only "reasonably" loud) after Chechnya, Syria and Crimea must NOT be repeated by the West and is NOT something to be returned to.

Putin has no knowledge of military strategy whatsoever, he's a KGB child. That makes him a conniver, a manipulator, a disinformation champion, a pathological liar and, yes, a bluffer. As in "gambler".

Of course the gambling angle can always result in over-playing one's hand, except that in any such case it won't just be the card holder going broke. But that's still not a good reason for all others to throw down their cards.

Forgive the harmless analogy regarding stakes, there is of course much more at risk

It's a bit (to me) like expecting, in the past, the German populace bowing to the Allied bombardments to the point of ousting the Nazi regime, while the bombardments actually served to have the people close ranks in general hatred of the bombers.

Patriotism of the totally nationalistic variety is a strong poison and can be most easily abused by just about anyone having the necessary wherewithal. Outside pressure if a convenient tool.

Putin fears his own more than the "liberals" that he's as good as silenced with brutality by now. And "his own" are now the ones that are not clamoring to end the war, but rather those that want him to expand it.
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It doesn't appear that many Russians are that patriotic and nationalistic if they are fleeing the draft in large numbers. You would never see that in WWII Germany.
 
EnigmaO01 said:
It doesn't appear that many Russians are that patriotic and nationalistic if they are fleeing the draft in large numbers. You would never see that in WWII Germany.
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Well, Germany already had a standing and combat ready Army of around one million by 1935 (4 years before attacking Poland) and that first campaign found great popular support in that it was about taking back lands previously "stolen" (from Germany).

Pumping it up to 4,5 million in 1939 with a draft wasn't as unpopular as conscripting Russians today, especially seeing how Germans in general cared about Poland at the time while today's Russians don't appear to be all that enthusiastic about Ukraine.

From all one gets to hear, Russians were pretty indifferent to the whole caper, seeing how it being "a special operation", conducted by forces generally not representative of the Russian populace, excluded "Ivan the plumber".

Mobilization of course changes all that.

I reckon it's one thing to thumb your nose at Western sanctions and quite another to see yourself called to lay your own life on the line.
 
Chagos said:
I reckon it's one thing to thumb your nose at Western sanctions and quite another to see yourself called to lay your own life on the line.
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And that in a nutshell is why Putin was reluctant to call for mobilization.
 
multivita-man said:
Indeed. I am more than a little concerned about the geopolitical trends that are taking place. There are the already obvious trends toward nationalism, populism, and isolationism, as well as the growing popularity of economic protectionism. But more than that there's a growing skepticism toward multilateral agreements and cooperation. A trend that was also beginning to take place in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries before the start of WWI. And like now, that period also had several boom-to-bust cycles and terrible economic inequality, with middle classes getting wiped out with each bust. Again, like the last decade or so, owing to the degradation of the New Deal era reforms I would argue.

The response to Ukraine is an exception and in reality, it's confined to an axis of power that is trying to maintain an economic and political world order of its design. There is now, as there was in the years leading up to WWI and II a desire to counter that axis with a counter-axis, to fight the political world order as a group, so as to achieve collectively what one member of the axis cannot independently. Let's call it the axis of the existing world order versus the anti-axis of pariah states.

My concern is that these axes will continue to engage in antagonism and over time, enter into agreements that require an axis-wide response if a member is attacked. Obviously, NATO already fits that description, but the concern is that an axis of China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, and perhaps a few others could have a similarly binding aggression pact type agreement. This is a dangerous predicament as long as we all maintain our current nuclear stockpiles, particularly as resource scarcity moves from the abstract into the realm of the real.
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Unfortunately there is no going back on the nuclear stockpiles.
 
phoenyx said:
That's a large shift, and so I went to confirm it. It's confirmed:



I'm happy that it's only a -partial- mobilization, and that it currently only affects military reservists. From the article:

**
The move will see the armed forces draw on military reservists only, and those who have completed national service, the president added. He promised that they would be provided with additional training, along with all the benefits due to people involved in active duty.
**
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I am not sure "partial" makes a difference. It may also simply be that present facilities can only accomodate a partial mobilization.
 
reinaert said:
@Antiwar thinks that as long as there's a Pentagon, Putin will never be the real problem. He is willing to see millions fed into Putin's death machine if it makes his point that the US Navy is not net-zero emissions.
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Your exaggerated hyperbole shows your commentary's problems.

P**** is a problem. Your solutions are much bigger problems.

The US militarism machine literally threatens nearly 8 billion people via nuclear war and environmental collapse.
 
Antiwar said:
Your exaggerated hyperbole shows your commentary's problems.

P**** is a problem. Your solutions are much bigger problems.

The US militarism machine literally threatens nearly 8 billion people via nuclear war and environmental collapse.
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What solutions?
 
reinaert said:
What solutions?
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US militarism; US-NATO expansion and militarism, which is backed by the US nuclear arsenal; domination paradigm; etc.


Then look at the tortured logic you used in your comment #36. Look at the simplistic logic that @Rogue Valley uses. The US and NATO aren't forced to be militaristic because Russia and Ukraine are warring. It's jingoistic.

Quote: Jingoism is nationalism in the form of aggressive and proactive foreign policy, such as a country's advocacy for the use of threats or actual force, as opposed to peaceful relations, in efforts to safeguard what it perceives as its national interests.
 
Antiwar said:
Look at the simplistic logic that @Rogue Valley uses.
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Nothing is more simplistic than your "logic".... War creates more carbon emissions so war is bad!

Not even an 8 yr old would put forth such simplistic nonsense.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Nothing is more simplistic than your "logic".... War creates more carbon emissions so war is bad!

Not even an 8 yr old would put forth such simplistic nonsense.
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Why don't you tell us why war and militarism are good? Thanks for helping me to come up with a new thread. I invite you to find it.
 
Perhaps it is time to simply admit Ukraine to NATO as they have been asking.

Make Ukraine a NATO country and give Putin 24 hours to begin the withdrawal of his troops and 1 week to have all troops OUT of the Ukraine or NATO forces will engage.
 
BirdinHand said:
Perhaps it is time to simply admit Ukraine to NATO as they have been asking.

Make Ukraine a NATO country and give Putin 24 hours to begin the withdrawal of his troops and 1 week to have all troops OUT of the Ukraine or NATO forces will engage.
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NATO's bylaws do not allow this. No nation can be admitted if it is involved in a dispute with a neighbor.

Putin knows this which is why he has kept Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine since 2014.

This is why the new country of Macedonia had to change its name to North Macedonia to settle a dispute with Greece (Macedonia is the largest and second most populous Greek geographic region).

North Macedonia is now the 30th NATO country.
 
Rogue Valley said:
NATO's bylaws do not allow this. No nation can be admitted if it is involved in a dispute with a neighbor.

Putin knows this which is why he has kept Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine since 2014.

This is why the new country of Macedonia had to change its name to North Macedonia to settle a dispute with Greece (Macedonia is the largest and second most populous Greek geographic region).

North Macedonia is now the 30th NATO country.
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D*mn.

Thanks - learned something today.
 
BirdinHand said:
Perhaps it is time to simply admit Ukraine to NATO as they have been asking.

Make Ukraine a NATO country and give Putin 24 hours to begin the withdrawal of his troops and 1 week to have all troops OUT of the Ukraine or NATO forces will engage.
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Warmongering liberals.
 
Everything is being done by Russia as planned. The war torn break away territories of the Donbas and south will vote to become part of Russia. Putin knows it will not be recognized by the west just as Crimea has not been. He does not care. His threats of retaliation if attacked, means he will consider these territories as Russia. Are the warmongers here wishing for a direct fight with Russia?
 
BirdinHand said:
Perhaps it is time to simply admit Ukraine to NATO as they have been asking.

Make Ukraine a NATO country and give Putin 24 hours to begin the withdrawal of his troops and 1 week to have all troops OUT of the Ukraine or NATO forces will engage.
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Ukraine is too corrupt to get into NATO

thehill.com

Biden: Ukraine must clean up corruption to be admitted to NATO

President Biden on Monday said Ukraine must root out corruption before it can become a full member of the NATO alliance, something Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has pushed for.”…
thehill.com thehill.com
 
justoneman said:
Everything is being done by Russia as planned. The war torn break away territories of the Donbas and south will vote to become part of Russia. Putin knows it will not be recognized by the west just as Crimea has not been. He does not care. His threats of retaliation if attacked, means he will consider these territories as Russia. Are the warmongers here wishing for a direct fight with Russia?
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If that's what is required to crush Russia's aggression.
 
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