Russia is dusting off antique tanks from the 1940s, monitor group says, as its losses mount in Ukraine

[Tigerace117]

1930s actually. And no one else has been able to produce anything better. It remains one of the most if not the most effective and feared machine guns in all the world. When something works why screw with it?

Precisely the point.

Something being old is irrelevant if it still fulfills a needed role.

 

[iguanaman]

Hmm….seeing as the T-54 is the most widely used tank in the world, and is still in active service well into the 21st century with a number of countries from Egypt to Bosnia and Mozambique to Nicaragua, clearly they did something right.

And the Abrams itself is hardly a wunderwaffe given that Iraq lost over a hundred against ISIS.

Any tank is only as good as the crew that man's them and all of Russia trained tank commanders are dead. It will be like a video game for the Ukrainians and most will be taken out before they even get to a battle. Also they can be destroyed by any anti-tank system we have given them. They are virtually unarmored. Here's a vid of a 50 cal taking out a T-54.

 

[Tigerace117]

Any tank is only as good as the crew that man's them and all of Russia trained tank commanders are dead. It will be like a video game for the Ukrainians and most will be taken out before they even get to a battle. Also they can be destroyed by any anti-tank system we have given them. They are virtually unarmored.

Anyone who genuinely thinks actual combat will be “like a video game“ has no clue what they are talking about.

Please stop embarrassing yourself.

 

[Lisa]

1930s actually. And no one else has been able to produce anything better. It remains one of the most if not the most effective and feared machine guns in all the world. When something works why screw with it?

Unless you have a few inches of armor plate between you and the M2's 50 caliber rounds, you are in for a very bad day. John Browning and his ancestors have every right to be rpooud of that creation. Simple, effective and very feared.

 

[braindrain]

1930s actually. And no one else has been able to produce anything better. It remains one of the most if not the most effective and feared machine guns in all the world. When something works why screw with it?

The stupidity of comparing the advancements in tanks to heavy machineguns and acting like they are in any way comparable like he tried to do is rather breathtaking.

It showed what happenes to a persons thinking ability when they are blinded by rage.

 

[Tigerace117]

The stupidity of comparing the advancements in tanks to heavy machineguns and acting like they are in any way comparable like he tried to do is rather breathtaking.

It showed what happenes to a persons thinking ability when they are blinded by rage.

You mean like your ridiculous obsession with my job history?

It certainly was rather breathtaking watching you try to deny Ukraine and Syria are modern battlefields, yes.

 

[Questerr]

The Iraqi Army under Saddam would have completely disintegrated under that type of pounding. It almost did against Iran before all that precious foreign aid that came flooding in.

And the only thing keeping the Russian army from disintegrating is that they keep throwing reserves into the fight.

 

[Tigerace117]

And the only thing keeping the Russian army from disintegrating is that they keep throwing reserves into the fight.

Yes, if you want to keep armies functional after engaging in high intensity fighting you need reinforcements. That really isn’t saying much.

 

[Questerr]

Yes, if you want to keep armies functional after engaging in high intensity fighting you need reinforcements. That really isn’t saying much.

How many times did the US have units totally destroyed in Iraq and then just threw in reservists to replace them?

Face facts, the performance of the Russians has been pathetic.

 

[Atomic Kid]

Precisely the point.

Something being old is irrelevant if it still fulfills a needed role.

Not when it comes to tanks. Modern battle tanks are miles ahead of their WWII brethren. The 50 cal is a durable simple design, the effectiveness of which has not been diminished in the least. It's like the perfect marriage of design and purpose in a way that is almost impossible to improve upon, from its cost of manufacturing to it's proven battlefield performance.

 

[Tigerace117]

How many times did the US have units totally destroyed in Iraq and then just threw in reservists to replace them?

Face facts, the performance of the Russians has been pathetic.

If the US had just never bothered to ever send any new troops to the units who participated in Phantom Fury, how well would those units have continued to perform?

 

[Tigerace117]

Not when it comes to tanks. Modern battle tanks are miles ahead of their WWII brethren. The 50 cal is a durable simple design, the effectiveness of which has not been diminished in the least. It's like the perfect marriage of design and purpose in a way that is almost impossible to improve upon from it's manufacturing to it's proven battlefield performance

Except, as i have throughly demonstrated at this point, the T-54 continues to be used on the modern battlefield and fulfill a role.

 

[Questerr]

If the US had just never bothered to ever send any new troops to the units who participated in Phantom Fury, how well would those units have continued to perform?

US losses in Fallujah were NOTHING compared with Russian losses from any major battle in Ukraine.

 

[Atomic Kid]

Except, as i have throughly demonstrated at this point, the T-54 continues to be used on the modern battlefield and fulfill a role.

Yeah the more modern iterations of it. Not the 1940s version. It's a sure sign that Russia is really struggling to keep up with the losses being inflicted upon them.

 

[Tigerace117]

US losses in Fallujah were NOTHING compared with Russian losses from any major battle in Ukraine.

Yes, because we were fighting a bunch of random insurgents instead of a military which just went through a decade long build and professionalization program. There’s a reason the US sticks to attacking places like Grenada.

That doesn’t change the reality that those units who were fighting in Fallujah wouldn’t have performed real well if you just didn’t bother to ever provide reinforcements to them.

 

[Questerr]

Yes, because we were fighting a bunch of random insurgents instead of a military which just went through a decade long build and professionalization program. There’s a reason the US sticks to attacking places like Grenada.

That doesn’t change the reality that those units who were fighting in Fallujah wouldn’t have performed real well if you just didn’t bother to ever provide reinforcements to them.

Russian units have been completely wiped out in Ukraine.

US forces in Fallujah took something like 10% losses.

Not comparable.

 

[Tigerace117]

Any tank is only as good as the crew that man's them and all of Russia trained tank commanders are dead. It will be like a video game for the Ukrainians and most will be taken out before they even get to a battle. Also they can be destroyed by any anti-tank system we have given them. They are virtually unarmored. Here's a vid of a 50 cal taking out a T-54.

.....dude. This is literally a video game. Claiming this has any relevant to the actual vehicle is just silly.

This is like saying that because someone can 360 no scope someone in Call of Duty they’d make a great soldier.

 

[Schrott]

That wasn’t my point though. My point was that just saying “oh, the Ukrainians have Abrams now, they’ll roll over everything“ is not backed up by the facts demonstrated by the Abrams’ recent performance in Iraqi and Saudi hands, where quite a few were lost against opponents who weren’t exactly varsity caliber.

Furthermore, arguing that places like Egypt, which DOES have over a thousand Abrams “don’t have anything better” is simply untrue. If the tank is such a piece of junk, Cairo wouldn’t have bothered keeping them in service.

And furthermore, given how pitifully bad Saddam‘s military performed against just about every opponent it faced, using them as an example isn’t saying a ton. The Iranians almost crushed them just through sheer grit and fanaticism in the early years of the Iran- Iraq War.

Well, Abs?

Its Leos, Abs are fare down the horizon. Leos will make mincemeat out of those, just using Heat, at 4000 meters.. Even a Marder, Bradley will open them up like a can of dog foot, before those tin cans can even open fire.

Egypt?
There are countries who have even T34 running in their inventory.
Iam impressed.

 

[Tigerace117]

Russian units have been completely wiped out in Ukraine.

US forces in Fallujah took something like 10% losses.

Not comparable.

US troops in Fallujah were facing a entirely different— and much weaker— opponent, and even then the units engaged took losses which would have hampered their performance had they not been reinforced.

Seeing as people are now posting clips of War Thunder gameplay as “evidence“, this is just getting silly.

 

[Atomic Kid]

If the US had just never bothered to ever send any new troops to the units who participated in Phantom Fury, how well would those units have continued to perform?

Just more evidence that the US is able to manage battlefield logistics and has better reserves and reinforcement capacity and capability than Russia can even begin to imagine having.

 

[Tigerace117]

Just more evidence that the US is able to manage battlefield logistics and has better reserves and reinforcement capacity and capability than Russia can even begin to imagine having.

Once again, though, it was against a far weaker opponent than the Russians are facing.

 

[Atomic Kid]

.....dude. This is literally a video game. Claiming this has any relevant to the actual vehicle is just silly.

This is like saying that because someone can 360 no scope someone in Call of Duty they’d make a great soldier.

That's not to say that it can't be done. If the 50 cal is being fired upon a vulnerable area of the tank. In WWII American pilots utilizing 50 cal brownings were able destroy German Panzers by concentrating their fire on the ground or road at the rear end of the Panzers. The rounds striking the ground and roads behind the Panzers would bounce or ricochet up into relatively unarmored bottom of the Panzers and penetrate and light'em up.

 

[Atomic Kid]

Once again, though, it was against a far weaker opponent than the Russians are facing.

Far weaker opponent you say? Then why are the Russians struggling so much and taking such horrific losses and casualties going up against little old Ukraine?

 

[Tigerace117]

That's not to say that it can't be done. If the 50 cal is being fired upon a vulnerable area of the tank. In WWII American pilots utilizing 50 cal brownings were able destroy German Panzers by concentrating their fire on the ground or road at the rear end of the Panzers. The rounds striking the ground and roads behind the Panzers would bounce or ricochet up into relatively unarmored bottom of the Panzers and penetrate and light'em up.

The difference between “not technically impossible“ and “even the slightest likelihood of happening today“ is a wide one.

Nor does it change the fact that posting a video of videogame action and saying “here, this shows how easy it will be to destroy the tank!“ is absurd.

 

[Tigerace117]

Far weaker opponent you say? Then why are the Russians struggling so much and taking such horrific losses and casualties going up against little old Ukraine?

Yes, a bunch of ragtag insurgents is a weaker opponent than a nation which has undergone a decade long modernization and professionalization program.