Rookie Teachers Woefully Unprepared, Report Says

[Μολὼν λαβέ]

Pay teachers more. Then you get better teachers as better qualified people compete for the job. What a concept!

Like I always say, capitalists want capitalism for everybody but themselves.

The only way a teacher becomes better qualified is through hard work and experience. It has nothing to do with capitalism but I agree that if the profession receives better pay then a highly competitive and competent workforce can be created.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Interesting article.



Those evil unions!



Teacher training does need improvement. So much of being a good teacher cannot be taught. You have to get in a classroom and get in front of students to find out what works and what doesn't. Beginning teachers often get little support. They are given the classes no one else wants and then when they struggle, they are fired. It's no wonder so few stay in the profession past 5 years.

Are you sure about that? I suspect more of them are simply "redirected" to the schools that the better able, more experienced, teachers chose to vacate. We have ample evidence of many poor performing teachers still out there based on the poor performance of their students.

 

[Linc]

Why would potential teachers with talent want to enter teaching today? Pensions are a mess. Retirement has been extended by 10 to 12 years. Even with best intentions, younger teachers are chewed up and spit out by all school factions.

Are you sure about that? I suspect more of them are simply "redirected" to the schools that the better able, more experienced, teachers chose to vacate. We have ample evidence of many poor performing teachers still out there based on the poor performance of their students.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Why would potential teachers with talent want to enter teaching today? Pensions are a mess. Retirement has been extended by 10 to 12 years. Even with best intentions, younger teachers are chewed up and spit out by all school factions.

Big difference between wanting to enter a profession and having already made that decision and investment of class time to not "stay the course". I still want to see your evidence of where teachers are getting fired (other than in DC recently), rather than are simply "guided" to where they are "supposed to be" within the system. Unions do not exist to let "bad stuff" happen to their members.

Keeping Bad Teachers in Front of Students | Teachers Union Facts

 

[Boo Radley]

Big difference between wanting to enter a profession and having already made that decision and investment of class time to not "stay the course". I still want to see your evidence of where teachers are getting fired (other than in DC recently), rather than are simply "guided" to where they are "supposed to be" within the system. Unions do not exist to let "bad stuff" happen to their members.

Keeping Bad Teachers in Front of Students | Teachers Union Facts

Not everyone's union.

. . . .the standardized percentage of teachers in the United States who lost their jobs due to poor performance via the non-renewal of nontenured teachers (.7%) was half of that for the termination of tenured teachers (1.4%).

The Answer Sheet - The myth of teacher tenure

Remainders: More than 200 D.C. teachers fired over test scores

Remainders: More than 200 D.C. teachers fired over test scores | GothamSchools

Layoffs are also common. And teachers quit far too often.

But let me ask a question: How many teachers are actually so bad they should be fired?

 

[jwzg]

my first teaching job was at a middle school in south alabama. 8 untenured teachers, all but one of us were "fired" after the first year. It was a majority black school and the 7 teachers who did not have their contract renewed were white, the one guy who did was black. They hired the principal's nephew to fill my spot. :shrug:

Where was this, if you don't mind?

 

[Layla_Z]

Are you sure about that? I suspect more of them are simply "redirected" to the schools that the better able, more experienced, teachers chose to vacate. We have ample evidence of many poor performing teachers still out there based on the poor performance of their students.

I am sure that probationary teachers are fired, sometimes for no reason at all except they ticked off the wrong board member. I've seen it happen, more than once. Beginning teachers are often given the most difficult classes to teach because the older teachers get to pick first.

Of course there are poor teachers, but just because a teacher's students perform poorly doesn't mean the teacher isn't doing the best they or anyone else could do. Would you evaluate a dentist on the number of cavities his patients have when some of his patients refuse to use basic dental hygiene?

 

[Fiddytree]

It's a reasonable conclusion. I heard enough about it over the years that was what I was somewhat expecting. I personally wanted more exposure, as well as more clear-cut explanation of expectations throughout each of the steps of the education program. Many times I felt like I did not perform to an expectation, as it was never even mentioned to me-sometimes neither by university staff or the school staff. Instead of engaging in profession worship (oh lord, the egos on some of them), we could have been exposed to local school district (and individual school) policies. But no, sometimes it was deemed necessary to be reminded how awesome we are and why Obama needed to be elected (completely ignoring policy reality, but hey). As a result, after my Master's program in History and long after completing my education program, I could not be entirely be confident that I would land completely on my feet if I were to step into the building. I would probably be in better shape at the university level, and that's hilarious, considering the lack of pedagogical or other training grad students get.

Educator training in the USA is basically a joke. Schools of education do not adequately prepare students to become teachers any better than they prepare teachers to become principals. Theory based on educational research is still just that, theory.

Certainly, but I would also caution that just because they use theoretical instruction does not necessarily mean you will receive a solid theoretical education. There were plenty of times where I was reading texts that seemed cursory, and then that was followed up with perhaps even less discussion or examination.

 

[OscarB63]

Where was this, if you don't mind?

East highland Middle school in Sylacauga

 

[OscarB63]

Of course there are poor teachers, but just because a teacher's students perform poorly doesn't mean the teacher isn't doing the best they or anyone else could do. Would you evaluate a dentist on the number of cavities his patients have when some of his patients refuse to use basic dental hygiene?

Like I always said: You can take the world's greatest chef, give him a turd and two slices of bread and no matter what he does with it...it's gonna taste like ****. Does that make him a bad cook?

 

[ttwtt78640]

Not everyone's union.

. . . .the standardized percentage of teachers in the United States who lost their jobs due to poor performance via the non-renewal of nontenured teachers (.7%) was half of that for the termination of tenured teachers (1.4%).

The Answer Sheet - The myth of teacher tenure

Remainders: More than 200 D.C. teachers fired over test scores

Remainders: More than 200 D.C. teachers fired over test scores | GothamSchools

Layoffs are also common. And teachers quit far too often.

But let me ask a question: How many teachers are actually so bad they should be fired?

Your final question is a good one, yet shows where part of the problem lies. In public service, especially if union backing is involved, it is often a very cumbersome process to even rate an employee as "unsatisfactory" since that often triggers the need for hearings, appeals and massive amounts of added documentation of the employee's faults (and how to "fix" them) by their supervisor/rater. In many cases (I am supplying a federal, civil service, realted link below) that includes forcing the supervisor to develop a performance improvement plan including additional training (costly to the entire organization) and may take so much additional time, effort and cost as to become a very rare event. It takes far, far less additional evaluation paperwork to get an employee rated above average and usually none at all to say that they are "meeting standards".

PolitiFact | Firing federal workers is difficult

General information on the management hassel of going through the "performance improvement plan" process:

Is a PIP the First Step in Firing an Employee?

Gov't (federal) firing is far too rare:

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/federal-government-should-increase-firing-rate

 

[ttwtt78640]

I am sure that probationary teachers are fired, sometimes for no reason at all except they ticked off the wrong board member. I've seen it happen, more than once. Beginning teachers are often given the most difficult classes to teach because the older teachers get to pick first.

Of course there are poor teachers, but just because a teacher's students perform poorly doesn't mean the teacher isn't doing the best they or anyone else could do. Would you evaluate a dentist on the number of cavities his patients have when some of his patients refuse to use basic dental hygiene?

If the teacher is giving these "bad" (underperforming) students good (passing) grades then definitely yes. If the problem is indeed with the student then the student's grade should reflect that fact.

 

[imagep]

If the teacher is giving these "bad" (underperforming) students good (passing) grades then definitely yes. If the problem is indeed with the student then the student's grade should reflect that fact.

I suspect that the pass/fail ratio is probably more a factor of the administration, rather than the individual teacher. If the administration is telling teachers to "pass everyone" thats what they do, and if the administration is telling them "don't pass failing students" then they give out lots of Fs. Regardless, it always seemed to me when I was in school that most teachers don't seem to have an issue with giving Fs.

 

[OscarB63]

If the teacher is giving these "bad" (underperforming) students good (passing) grades then definitely yes. If the problem is indeed with the student then the student's grade should reflect that fact.

during my 9 years teaching at an inner city school, I had the highest failure rate of any teacher there. The kids, parents and admin whined and complained that I was "too hard". I was not "too hard", I merely expected my students to meet the standard. If you failed...I gave you an "F". The really funny part was that I was probably one of the "easiest" teachers there. most of the time my tests were "open note" with the questions/problems coming directly from the notes. all a kid had to do was pay attention and actually take notes in class and I was giving them the test answers. and every single semester my final exam was a 100 question multiple choice test. the week before the final, I would give them a 100 question fill in the blank review worksheet which I allowed them to use during the exam. it was the same 100 questions. and there were still kids who would makes 25-30 on the exam, simply because they were too ****ing lazy to complete the review sheet.

 

[Layla_Z]

If the teacher is giving these "bad" (underperforming) students good (passing) grades then definitely yes. If the problem is indeed with the student then the student's grade should reflect that fact.

Of course the students' grade should reflect their work. Of course those low grades can be what gets a probationary teacher fired if the grade goes to a child of someone "important".

 

[Layla_Z]

during my 9 years teaching at an inner city school, I had the highest failure rate of any teacher there. The kids, parents and admin whined and complained that I was "too hard". I was not "too hard", I merely expected my students to meet the standard. If you failed...I gave you an "F". The really funny part was that I was probably one of the "easiest" teachers there. most of the time my tests were "open note" with the questions/problems coming directly from the notes. all a kid had to do was pay attention and actually take notes in class and I was giving them the test answers. and every single semester my final exam was a 100 question multiple choice test. the week before the final, I would give them a 100 question fill in the blank review worksheet which I allowed them to use during the exam. it was the same 100 questions. and there were still kids who would makes 25-30 on the exam, simply because they were too ****ing lazy to complete the review sheet.

The class you describe is very like a class that I teach. My class is an elective and it is in no way difficult material. I always have several that struggle not from lack of ability but because they don't do anything. They don't turn in homework(which they are given time to do in class). They don't pay attention or study at all for any test. Luckily, my principal is supportive and says as long as I am keeping the parent informed he has no problem with the grades I give. I do keep the parents informed, but I rarely get a response.

 

[Boo Radley]

Your final question is a good one, yet shows where part of the problem lies. In public service, especially if union backing is involved, it is often a very cumbersome process to even rate an employee as "unsatisfactory" since that often triggers the need for hearings, appeals and massive amounts of added documentation of the employee's faults (and how to "fix" them) by their supervisor/rater. In many cases (I am supplying a federal, civil service, realted link below) that includes forcing the supervisor to develop a performance improvement plan including additional training (costly to the entire organization) and may take so much additional time, effort and cost as to become a very rare event. It takes far, far less additional evaluation paperwork to get an employee rated above average and usually none at all to say that they are "meeting standards".

PolitiFact | Firing federal workers is difficult

General information on the management hassel of going through the "performance improvement plan" process:

Is a PIP the First Step in Firing an Employee?

Gov't (federal) firing is far too rare:

Federal Government Should Increase Firing Rate | Cato Institute

Well, firing should be difficult and not flippant. A school should have just cause and be able to prove it. However, we're not union where I work. Yet, much of what those who complain about unions is how it works here. On lay offs, seniority rules. There's a process for firing, and it is difficult to do.

Before we can assess he rest of what you link, we need to know what is substandard, how is it measured, and how many actually fit that description. People are rather flippant with these claims. We need hard data and not assumptions.

 

[Boo Radley]

I suspect that the pass/fail ratio is probably more a factor of the administration, rather than the individual teacher. If the administration is telling teachers to "pass everyone" thats what they do, and if the administration is telling them "don't pass failing students" then they give out lots of Fs. Regardless, it always seemed to me when I was in school that most teachers don't seem to have an issue with giving Fs.

Quite right. Parents put pressure on schools, and administrators react accordingly. We have to see the big picture before leaping in and making more mistakes than we have already.

 

[OscarB63]

the tenure system is flawed at the core. where I taught, if you didn't have tenure it didn't matter how good you were. you could be fired for no reason (or if one of the admins had a relative that needed a job). If you had tenure, it was virtually impossible to get rid of you no matter how lousy you were.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Well, firing should be difficult and not flippant. A school should have just cause and be able to prove it. However, we're not union where I work. Yet, much of what those who complain about unions is how it works here. On lay offs, seniority rules. There's a process for firing, and it is difficult to do.

Before we can assess he rest of what you link, we need to know what is substandard, how is it measured, and how many actually fit that description. People are rather flippant with these claims. We need hard data and not assumptions.

Gov't jobs should not be guaranteed jobs for life. The concept of automatic (non-performance based) promotions is bad enough but to retain ANY substandard performers, when replacement candidates for these jobs abound is insane.

 

[Boo Radley]

Gov't jobs should not be guaranteed jobs for life. The concept of automatic (non-performance based) promotions is bad enough but to retain ANY substandard performers, when replacement candidates for these jobs abound is insane.

They're not. I don't really believe it works this way on the whole. You can find a few of anything. But we need hard answers on real numbers. Not someone's opinion. Not a few cases. But the whole. I suspect we Mae a few look like the whole, and the difference between government and non government is relatively small.

 

[Boo Radley]

the tenure system is flawed at the core. where I taught, if you didn't have tenure it didn't matter how good you were. you could be fired for no reason (or if one of the admins had a relative that needed a job). If you had tenure, it was virtually impossible to get rid of you no matter how lousy you were.

The fired for no reason bothers me more. I've seen people fired with tenure. Just takes proper documentation.

 

[clownboy]

Teacher training does need improvement. So much of being a good teacher cannot be taught. You have to get in a classroom and get in front of students to find out what works and what doesn't. Beginning teachers often get little support. They are given the classes no one else wants and then when they struggle, they are fired. It's no wonder so few stay in the profession past 5 years.

Chico State had a great program that addressed this weakness and AFAIK it was adopted by many of the CA universities. The fifth year, going for teacher's degree, was spent almost entirely in a genuine classroom environment working for an established teacher. By the time they were credentialed new teachers had at least one school year's experience to get them started.

 

[OscarB63]

The fired for no reason bothers me more. I've seen people fired with tenure. Just takes proper documentation.

my dad was a HS principal for 25+ years. I saw them try to fire a tenured teacher once and it took them 3 years to do so. teacher was chronically late, physically and emotionally abusive towards her students (I myself was pinched and hit on the top of the head with a paddle by her) and she was incompetant to boot.

 

[Boo Radley]

my dad was a HS principal for 25+ years. I saw them try to fire a tenured teacher once and it took them 3 years to do so. teacher was chronically late, physically and emotionally abusive towards her students (I myself was pinched and hit on the top of the head with a paddle by her) and she was incompetant to boot.

Such stories aren't that helpful. We have to see the big picture, across the board. There may be issues not made clear to either you or I in your story. I can't say. But I have seen numbers showing tenured teachers fired more often. So it certainly isn't impossible.