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Rewarding law breaking.

YoungConserv

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Where else do we let the criminal keep the goal of their law breaking? If 11 million people robbed a bank would we throw up our hands and say there are to many to inforce the law and make a path to pardon that allowed them to keep the money? No! Then why are we doing this with imigration.
 

mak2

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The business owners who hired and pay these people are the real criminals. Arrest them.
Where else do we let the criminal keep the goal of their law breaking? If 11 million people robbed a bank would we throw up our hands and say there are to many to inforce the law and make a path to pardon that allowed them to keep the money? No! Then why are we doing this with imigration.
 

MaggieD

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Where else do we let the criminal keep the goal of their law breaking? If 11 million people robbed a bank would we throw up our hands and say there are to many to inforce the law and make a path to pardon that allowed them to keep the money? No! Then why are we doing this with imigration.
There is a back story we don't understand regards immigration reform. It's easy as pie to send these people walking home, yet we don't do it. The big question is "Why?" This is a nonpartisan issue -- Republicans want immigration reform as well. They aren't against it. They'd tweak it, but they're not against it. Again I ask the big question: Why? What don't we know? What don't we understand? (I should put this answer in the Conspiracy Forum. Ha!)
 

Kanstantine

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Let me know when we prosecute the USA for all the Indian treaties that we broke.
 

Anagram

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Where else do we let the criminal keep the goal of their law breaking? If 11 million people robbed a bank would we throw up our hands and say there are to many to inforce the law and make a path to pardon that allowed them to keep the money? No! Then why are we doing this with imigration.
If I believed that allowing a path to a pardon for the bank robbers was the most practical way to improve the United States I would be for it. I'm not sure I believe that this is the best way to go on immigration, but if I accepted that premise, than I would be absolutely fine with allowing them to break the law.
 

SassySmartie

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Where else do we let the criminal keep the goal of their law breaking? If 11 million people robbed a bank would we throw up our hands and say there are to many to inforce the law and make a path to pardon that allowed them to keep the money? No! Then why are we doing this with imigration.
There have been many times in history when the laws have been unjust and unethical/wrong when we have rewarded the "law breakers" by changing laws. Because some laws need challenging.

I find it interesting how many people against immigration reform like to dehumanize the people we are talking about. Undocumented workers are committing a crime by coming into the country without proper documentation, however, they are no more "criminals" than someone who speeds to work every day or someone who jaywalks or otherwise commits some other minor infraction of a law. A "criminal" in common speech is a person who has a history of being engaged in law breaking behavior, who wontonly breaks laws as a matter of practice, think burglar, tax evader, domestic abuser, people with a criminal record of behaviors.

Martin Luther King Jr. in Letter from a Birmingham jail said that:
"One may well ask: "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws."
 

Kanstantine

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Let's be honest. Coming to the USA illegally or overstaying your vacation or work visa simply so you could have a better life for you and your family in the United States, isn't the worst crime in the world.
 

AlabamaPaul

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Let's be honest. Coming to the USA illegally or overstaying your vacation or work visa simply so you could have a better life for you and your family in the United States, isn't the worst crime in the world.
There are many people currently on waiting lists to come here legally. Why do you think those that did not should be given any type of "break"?
 

specklebang

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Bankers robbed us and weren't arrested. So the analogy doesn't hold up well (pun intended). We do reward the criminals, sometimes, depending on quality and quantity.


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SassySmartie

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Let's be honest. Coming to the USA illegally or overstaying your vacation or work visa simply so you could have a better life for you and your family in the United States, isn't the worst crime in the world.
QFT, never mind the fact that many undocumented workers pay both state and federal taxes, consume goods and services and contribute to our economy but cannot reap most of the benefits of their contributions.
 

GottaGo

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There have been many times in history when the laws have been unjust and unethical/wrong when we have rewarded the "law breakers" by changing laws. Because some laws need challenging.

I find it interesting how many people against immigration reform like to dehumanize the people we are talking about. Undocumented workers are committing a crime by coming into the country without proper documentation, however, they are no more "criminals" than someone who speeds to work every day or someone who jaywalks or otherwise commits some other minor infraction of a law. A "criminal" in common speech is a person who has a history of being engaged in law breaking behavior, who wontonly breaks laws as a matter of practice, think burglar, tax evader, domestic abuser, people with a criminal record of behaviors.

Martin Luther King Jr. in Letter from a Birmingham jail said that:
"One may well ask: "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws."
so, crossing a border without declaring one's self to Border Patrol (1), staying in the country without registering with Immigration (2) obtaining forged documents (3) finding an employer to accept those documents (4) obtaining assistance (5 but not necessarily applicable to all) without any of the preceeding, and for some, assisting other family members to do the same (6)and continuing such practices, for some, for many years, possibly decades.

Now, about that definition of 'criminal'.....
 

Kanstantine

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so, crossing a border without declaring one's self to Border Patrol (1), staying in the country without registering with Immigration (2) obtaining forged documents (3) finding an employer to accept those documents (4) obtaining assistance (5 but not necessarily applicable to all) without any of the preceeding, and for some, assisting other family members to do the same (6)and continuing such practices, for some, for many years, possibly decades.

Now, about that definition of 'criminal'.....
Most of our ancestors came here in a time where there pretty much was no such thing as an "illegal immigrant".

You show up at Ellis Island, welcome to America.

Now we've added all sorts of rules and regulations that no one had to deal with until 1928.
 

SassySmartie

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so, crossing a border without declaring one's self to Border Patrol (1), staying in the country without registering with Immigration (2) obtaining forged documents (3) finding an employer to accept those documents (4) obtaining assistance (5 but not necessarily applicable to all) without any of the preceeding, and for some, assisting other family members to do the same (6)and continuing such practices, for some, for many years, possibly decades.

Now, about that definition of 'criminal'.....
Again, when the law is unjust, it warrants breaking. The law currently is poorly written, unreasonable and makes citizenship nearly impossible for many people. ITINs are not "forged documents" they are legitimate taxpayer identification numbers issued by the IRS for the purpose of reporting income that many undocumented workers use to get jobs, buy houses and cars,etc.
 

GottaGo

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Most of our ancestors came here in a time where there pretty much was no such thing as an "illegal immigrant".

You show up at Ellis Island, welcome to America.

Now we've added all sorts of rules and regulations that no one had to deal with until 1928.
I have some who were here long before Ellis Island, I have some who came through Ellis Island. They abided by the laws of the time, just as these people should be doing, be they come from the South, the North, the East or the West.

So for the people who came here legally, after applying for a Visa, filing all sorts of paperwork, registering with immigration, abiding by the rules, paying taxes, and taking an oath of citizenship is worth nothing.

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't fly
 

Kanstantine

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I have some who were here long before Ellis Island, I have some who came through Ellis Island. They abided by the laws of the time, just as these people should be doing, be they come from the South, the North, the East or the West.

So for the people who came here legally, after applying for a Visa, filing all sorts of paperwork, registering with immigration, abiding by the rules, paying taxes, and taking an oath of citizenship is worth nothing.

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't fly
I agree that there should be consequences for coming here and or staying here illegally.

They should pay a fine. They should pay back taxes. They should be required to learn English.

They should go to the back of the line for naturalization applications.
 

GottaGo

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Again, when the law is unjust, it warrants breaking. The law currently is poorly written, unreasonable and makes citizenship nearly impossible for many people. ITINs are not "forged documents" they are legitimate taxpayer identification numbers issued by the IRS for the purpose of reporting income that many undocumented workers use to get jobs, buy houses and cars,etc.
It is not an unjust law.

See my reply to Kanstantine.
 

GottaGo

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I agree that there should be consequences for coming here and or staying here illegally.

They should pay a fine. They should pay back taxes. They should be required to learn English.

They should go to the back of the line for naturalization applications.
And if they are not so inclined?

Though this would be a start, I think returning them to their country of origin and THEN make them do those things is the more appropriate way to go about it. Why should they be allowed to 'enjoy' the country that they've taken advantage of , while waiting to make things right?
 

SassySmartie

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It is not an unjust law.

See my reply to Kanstantine.
It is currently enforced unjustly and detains people without due process for lengthy and unreasonable amounts of time.

Current reform is focusing on fining undocumented immigrants who seek citizenship, having them pay back taxes and has residency requirements and a waiting period for earning citizenship. A vast majority of immigrants are not scary, dangerous criminals, they are people that came here to give their families a better life.
 

Drake McHugh

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My Immigration Proposal
1.No legal status process can begin until border is deemed secure by congress. The fence(double fenced where possible)would have to be completed.
2.Legal status would be given ONLY to these groups(those who came to the US as children,parents of legal US citizens under 18,or of people that came to US as kids,and their siblings(if under 18).
3.Reform the entry/exit system
4.Get rid of the VISA lottery
5.No chain migration,or at least for those that get legalization.
6.An improved temporary worker program. People who participate would be more closely monitored and when their visa was up sent hone in a timely manner.
 

jamesrage

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The business owners who hired and pay these people are the real criminals. Arrest them.
I takes two to tango.The traitorous scum for hiring illegals and the illegals for coming/staying here illegal.Actually in the case of illegal immigration its three, traitorous scum in office who cater to these illegals and the scum that hiring and or aid them.
 

Drake McHugh

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I takes two to tango.The traitorous scum for hiring illegals and the illegals for coming/staying here illegal.Actually in the case of illegal immigration its three, traitorous scum in office who cater to these illegals and the scum that hiring and or aid them.
When they do it intentionally,I agree about employers. Or when they recruit people to come here illegally. However,at the end of the day it is the governments's responsibility to enforce the law.
 

JackFrost

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Where else do we let the criminal keep the goal of their law breaking? If 11 million people robbed a bank would we throw up our hands and say there are to many to inforce the law and make a path to pardon that allowed them to keep the money? No! Then why are we doing this with imigration.
Wall Street Banksters.
 

jamesrage

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When they do it intentionally,I agree about employers. Or when they recruit people to come here illegally.
What do you mean by intentionally? Not perform any background checks.Ignore all the warning signs(for example the applicant claiming to be a US citizen even though he or she speaks no English)


However,at the end of the day it is the governments's responsibility to enforce the law.
As citizens of this country its the employer's job to abide by the law.
 

YoungConserv

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Let's be honest. Coming to the USA illegally or overstaying your vacation or work visa simply so you could have a better life for you and your family in the United States, isn't the worst crime in the world.
If that's where it stopped I would agree with you but when they demand we conform to them and support their presence here I have a problem with that?!
 
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