Reverand Paul gives a sermon on the Book of Fiscal Conservatism

Fiscal Conservatism. One aspect of conservatism that Senator Rand Paul and I are in agreement upon. The Republicans are no better than the Democrats when it comes to spending and debt.

This is a 21 minute video, but if you care at all about the future of this country, and our children's future as well, then you should both watch this video, and then contact your Congressman/Senator to support Senator Paul's budget proposal.

Audits for everyone, I like his style.

Beaudreaux said:

Fiscal Conservatism. One aspect of conservatism that Senator Rand Paul and I are in agreement upon. The Republicans are no better than the Democrats when it comes to spending and debt.

This is a 21 minute video, but if you care at all about the future of this country, and our children's future as well, then you should both watch this video, and then contact your Congressman/Senator to support Senator Paul's budget proposal.
<snip>

Click to expand...

I can't get to your video tonight, but want to comment on the Dem-GOP thing:

For all the noise and BS the GOP make about Dems lacking in fiscal responsibility, I believe the GOP are worse, and a historical glance at the federal deficit by party in power will bear this out. At least the Dems don't claim superior fiscal responsibility, which actually wins me over a bit.

But, enough party rant.

Related, I predict Trump with the GOP are going to spend like we haven't seen in many years! Everything Trump and the Congress have been signaling for their to-do list is, is staggering in terms of the deficit. Rabid spending, coupled with tax cuts (who's gonna' pay?), all supposedly going to be made-up by their vision of the revenue that will flow due to their superior governance.

I am not optimistic.

Chomsky said:

I can't get to your video tonight, but want to comment on the Dem-GOP thing:

For all the noise and BS the GOP make about Dems lacking in fiscal responsibility, I believe the GOP are worse, and a historical glance at the federal deficit by party in power will bear this out. At least the Dems don't claim superior fiscal responsibility, which actually wins me over a bit.

But, enough party rant.

Related, I predict Trump with the GOP are going to spend like we haven't seen in many years! Everything Trump and the Congress have been signaling for their to-do list is, is staggering in terms of the deficit. Rabid spending, coupled with tax cuts (who's gonna' pay?), all supposedly going to be made-up by their vision of the revenue that will flow due to their superior governance.

I am not optimistic.

Click to expand...

The problem in attributing deficits to the responsible actor is that a crash made in one period needs to be fixed in the next.

Beaudreaux said:

Fiscal Conservatism. One aspect of conservatism that Senator Rand Paul and I are in agreement upon. The Republicans are no better than the Democrats when it comes to spending and debt.

Click to expand...

Sorry Beau, “as bad as the dems” is just a narrative you use to ignore reality. As Chomsky points out republicans are worse. They not only cause higher deficits but they do it as they rail against deficits. And during the Obama administration they fought to keep the deficit higher. an example would be they fought with President Obama to keep the Bush tax cuts from expiring as scheduled and expiring as re-scheduled for the top 2 %. It was “about” the deficit when they attacked the stimulus, auto bailout, jobs bill (things that did or would help the economy) but not the Bush tax cuts.

Continue to vote republican but just do it knowing that their “concern” for deficits is just another lying narrative and they make it worse.

Beaudreaux said:

This is a 21 minute video, but if you care at all about the future of this country, and our children's future as well, then you should both watch this video, and then contact your Congressman/Senator to support Senator Paul's budget proposal

Click to expand...

The Federal Debt has little-to-no impact on the economy. Unlike personal debt, federal debt does not need to be paid back. The only thing federal debt affects is borrowing rates for the government, and even with debt as high as it is, borrowing rates are low. Now is the time to borrow to rebuild infrastructure or upgrade our power grid.

Chomsky said:

I can't get to your video tonight, but want to comment on the Dem-GOP thing:

For all the noise and BS the GOP make about Dems lacking in fiscal responsibility, I believe the GOP are worse, and a historical glance at the federal deficit by party in power will bear this out. At least the Dems don't claim superior fiscal responsibility, which actually wins me over a bit.

But, enough party rant.

Related, I predict Trump with the GOP are going to spend like we haven't seen in many years! Everything Trump and the Congress have been signaling for their to-do list is, is staggering in terms of the deficit. Rabid spending, coupled with tax cuts (who's gonna' pay?), all supposedly going to be made-up by their vision of the revenue that will flow due to their superior governance.

I am not optimistic.

Click to expand...

The part of your post that I made bold above, is a good synopsis of the 21 minute video. When you can, watch it.

Chomsky said:

I can't get to your video tonight, but want to comment on the Dem-GOP thing:

For all the noise and BS the GOP make about Dems lacking in fiscal responsibility, I believe the GOP are worse, and a historical glance at the federal deficit by party in power will bear this out. At least the Dems don't claim superior fiscal responsibility, which actually wins me over a bit.

But, enough party rant.

Related, I predict Trump with the GOP are going to spend like we haven't seen in many years! Everything Trump and the Congress have been signaling for their to-do list is, is staggering in terms of the deficit. Rabid spending, coupled with tax cuts (who's gonna' pay?), all supposedly going to be made-up by their vision of the revenue that will flow due to their superior governance.

I am not optimistic.

Click to expand...

The problem with debt.spending is that the ONLY group that has ever come together to try to stop this got vilified for doing so. Whether or not you agree with the Tea Party, they have been the only group that has stood up to the status quo and tried to change things. We haven't seen ANY effort from the Left to make a change, just an ongoing support of the status quo within the Dem. party. I think that most of us can agree that both parties are crap at handling debt/spending, yet only conservatives have tried to fix this problem. We need a Left version of the Tea Party, but what we're getting is more and more of the same old, same old. If we are ever going to fix this problem, we need to break the mold and get us out of this rut.

Incisor said:

The Federal Debt has little-to-no impact on the economy. Unlike personal debt, federal debt does not need to be paid back. The only thing federal debt affects is borrowing rates for the government, and even with debt as high as it is, borrowing rates are low. Now is the time to borrow to rebuild infrastructure or upgrade our power grid.

Click to expand...

That's why countries like Greece are in free fall collapse, and have been for years - federal debt has little-to-no impact on the economy.

Rebuilding our infrastructure should be of critical and primary importance, but... we need to reduce spending in other areas that are not as critical, and revenues increased through tax code changes that eliminate loopholes, deductions, and tax shelters, rather than increasing taxes on the ones that drive the economy (middle class and business owners).

Robbing Peter to pay Paul, borrowing from the bank (just another version of robbing Peter to pay Paul), or what may be worse, printing money (monetizing the debt) just to have more money to spend, has never worked for long because at some point the bill comes due and has to be paid back. Even federal debt.

Beaudreaux said:

That's why countries like Greece are in free fall collapse, and have been for years - federal debt has little-to-no impact on the economy.

Click to expand...

Greece has been doing your austerity prescriptions since 2010 and it's only made things worse. Also, Greece doesn't have its own currency, which is why it has to rely on creditors. Those creditors made a killing on Greece, by the way. Please don't speak about things of which you have no idea.

Rebuilding our infrastructure should be of critical and primary importance, but... we need to reduce spending in other areas that are not as critica

Click to expand...

That makes no sense whatsoever. Why do we need to reduce spending in one area in order to increase it in another? Why not just raise taxes on the wealthy and corporations who have made a killing during the Obama years? There's over $2.1T of corporate profits sitting in banks in socialist countries in Europe. When are they gonna trickle-down? The answer, of course, is never. Tax cuts were a false promise designed to trick the less bright into redistributing wealth to the top 1%.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul, borrowing from the bank (just another version of robbing Peter to pay Paul)

Click to expand...

Your problem is that you think federal debt and personal debt are analogous. But they're not. Conservatives either know this, and are playing stupid, or they don't and should not be allowed a seat at the table. In theory, the debt of the United States never has to be paid off. Why? Because the United States isn't a person whose life will end, thus leaving creditors in the lurch. Thing is, you people know this, but you pretend you don't for ideological reasons. Why? Because Conservatives are party-before-country. Always.

faithful_servant said:

The problem with debt.spending is that the ONLY group that has ever come together to try to stop this got vilified for doing so. Whether or not you agree with the Tea Party, they have been the only group that has stood up to the status quo and tried to change things. We haven't seen ANY effort from the Left to make a change, just an ongoing support of the status quo within the Dem. party. I think that most of us can agree that both parties are crap at handling debt/spending, yet only conservatives have tried to fix this problem. We need a Left version of the Tea Party, but what we're getting is more and more of the same old, same old. If we are ever going to fix this problem, we need to break the mold and get us out of this rut.

Click to expand...

Conservatives tried to fix what? The only thing the teas tried to fix was a black man in the Whitehouse. They ate Trump and his Trillion % stimulus up like candy. He will get it too or Congress will get a lot of nasty tweets.

Incisor said:

Greece has been doing your austerity prescriptions since 2010 and it's only made things worse. Also, Greece doesn't have its own currency, which is why it has to rely on creditors. Those creditors made a killing on Greece, by the way. Please don't speak about things of which you have no idea.




That makes no sense whatsoever. Why do we need to reduce spending in one area in order to increase it in another? Why not just raise taxes on the wealthy and corporations who have made a killing during the Obama years? There's over $2.1T of corporate profits sitting in banks in socialist countries in Europe. When are they gonna trickle-down? The answer, of course, is never. Tax cuts were a false promise designed to trick the less bright into redistributing wealth to the top 1%.




Your problem is that you think federal debt and personal debt are analogous. But they're not. Conservatives either know this, and are playing stupid, or they don't and should not be allowed a seat at the table. In theory, the debt of the United States never has to be paid off. Why? Because the United States isn't a person whose life will end, thus leaving creditors in the lurch. Thing is, you people know this, but you pretend you don't for ideological reasons. Why? Because Conservatives are party-before-country. Always.

Click to expand...

And tax cuts before fiscal responsibility too!

iguanaman said:

And tax cuts before fiscal responsibility too!

Click to expand...

I'm convinced the reason Conservatives rubber-band back to tax cuts is because "tax cuts" is only two syllables and it's something they can (kinda) spell.

Incisor said:

Greece has been doing your austerity prescriptions

Click to expand...

This ended the conversation in this portion of your response.

Incisor said:

That makes no sense whatsoever. Why do we need to reduce spending in one area in order to increase it in another? Why not just raise taxes on the wealthy and corporations who have made a killing during the Obama years? There's over $2.1T of corporate profits sitting in banks in socialist countries in Europe. When are they gonna trickle-down? The answer, of course, is never. Tax cuts were a false promise designed to trick the less bright into redistributing wealth to the top 1%.

Click to expand...

Rhetorical responses and hyperbolic attacks (trickle-down for instance) with no factual basis in reality tend to not garner a response other than one like this.

Incisor said:

Your problem is that you think federal debt and personal debt are analogous. But they're not. Conservatives either know this, and are playing stupid, or they don't and should not be allowed a seat at the table. In theory, the debt of the United States never has to be paid off. Why? Because the United States isn't a person whose life will end, thus leaving creditors in the lurch. Thing is, you people know this, but you pretend you don't for ideological reasons. Why? Because Conservatives are party-before-country. Always.

Click to expand...

***SMH***

If you would like to have a discussion without the personal attacks, I may choose to participate.

Beaudreaux said:

This ended the conversation in this portion of your response.

Click to expand...

As a condition of receiving a bailout from the ECB, Greece had to severely cut back spending beginning in 2010. They've been doing that ever since. You correctly point out that Greece continues to do terribly. Well, the reason is obviously because of the austerity measures inflicted on the country by people who outright lied about debt's effect on GDP.

Rhetorical responses and hyperbolic attacks (trickle-down for instance) with no factual basis in reality tend to not garner a response other than one like this.

Click to expand...

Look dude, I get it. You don't want to admit that what you believe is nothing more than a crock. I'd be the same way if the roles were reversed. What you lack in dignity and grace, you more than make up for with arrogance and ignorance. It seems to me that your understanding of these topics is barely skin-deep, and thus you have to come up with (not so) clever ways of avoiding and evading. The fact is that Conservatives have, for the last 35 years, prescribed spending cuts and tax cuts as the cure for middling economic growth as a result of tax and spending cuts. So it's hard to see how you're not perpetuating a problem that you caused, for no other reason than to complain about it because you feel insecure in your sad, failed arguments. Conservatives have not changed one iota of their platform the last 35 years, despite all the empiricial evidence that shows supply-side-economics was really just a means by which wealth was redistributed to the top 1%. Which is precisely what has happened over the last 35 years. I don't expect you to take responsibility for it, what I expect is you to take responsibility for defending it knowing it's tragically and (almost) comically flawed to its core.

If you would like to have a discussion without the personal attacks, I may choose to participate.

Click to expand...

How did I personally attack you? How is anything I'm saying untrue? You guys are party-before-country. Always.

faithful_servant said:

The problem with debt.spending is that the ONLY group that has ever come together to try to stop this got vilified for doing so. Whether or not you agree with the Tea Party, they have been the only group that has stood up to the status quo and tried to change things. We haven't seen ANY effort from the Left to make a change, just an ongoing support of the status quo within the Dem. party. I think that most of us can agree that both parties are crap at handling debt/spending, yet only conservatives have tried to fix this problem. We need a Left version of the Tea Party, but what we're getting is more and more of the same old, same old. If we are ever going to fix this problem, we need to break the mold and get us out of this rut.

Click to expand...

Yes FS, you were vilified for suddenly demanding we cut spending to reduce the deficit in the depths of the worst recession since the depression. Yes you were also vilified for only becoming concerned about deficits starting 1/20/2009. yes you were vilified for believing that the stimulus would cause "hyper inflation, dollar collapse, market to zero". yes you were vilified for threatening to default on the debt. Yes you were vilified for refusing to acknowledge President Obama inherited the trillion dollar Bush Deficits (yes they have a name) Yes, you were vilified for continually claiming it was only a spending problem when it was really mostly a revenue problem. And rightfully so.

You and yours ranted about deficits and republicans exploited your ignorance to obstruct President Obama's attempts to not only fix the economy but lower the deficit. I think its clear that you believe the budget should be balanced every year. That's as dumb as when you and yours believed the stimulus would cause "hyper inflation, dollar collapse, market to zero". Anyhoo, get your excuses ready for when a republican president and a republican congress explode the deficit.

joG said:

The problem in attributing deficits to the responsible actor is that a crash made in one period needs to be fixed in the next.

Click to expand...

Well, by that measure, all indications point to a near complete failure by the GOP, from either causing a return to Raygun GDP gains.....or a continuation of a GWShrub collapse.

Gimmesometruth said:

Well, by that measure, all indications point to a near complete failure by the GOP, from either causing a return to Raygun GDP gains.....or a continuation of a GWShrub collapse.

Click to expand...

Not sure, what you mean.

joG said:

Not sure, what you mean.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure why you placed a comma in the middle of your sentence....but I am sure you are unable to express your confusion.

Beaudreaux said:

That's why countries like Greece are in free fall collapse, and have been for years - federal debt has little-to-no impact on the economy.

Rebuilding our infrastructure should be of critical and primary importance, but... we need to reduce spending in other areas that are not as critical, and revenues increased through tax code changes that eliminate loopholes, deductions, and tax shelters, rather than increasing taxes on the ones that drive the economy (middle class and business owners).

Robbing Peter to pay Paul, borrowing from the bank (just another version of robbing Peter to pay Paul), or what may be worse, printing money (monetizing the debt) just to have more money to spend, has never worked for long because at some point the bill comes due and has to be paid back. Even federal debt.

Click to expand...

Name one time when sovereign debt came due and had to be paid up, and not simply rolled over.

Since debt does not matter its time to end taxation and its overhead, crank up the presses, forget budgets, and print all we need. All of are problems are solved.

Master PO said:

Since debt does not matter its time to end taxation and its overhead, crank up the presses, forget budgets, and print all we need. All of are problems are solved.

Click to expand...

Again with the same snappy answer. (One that has already been answered, btw.)

Why is it that you guys can't manage to answer the few questions I have posed so many times? If he can't demonstrate some harm that comes from debt and deficit spending, then he has no business starting yet another thread premised on the harm that debt and deficits do, like it's a given. It's not a given.

If you are going to participate in the thread, then do your job and bring the data. There is so little substance coming from your side, it's like my guys are shadowboxing.

JohnfrmClevelan said:

Name one time when sovereign debt came due and had to be paid up, and not simply rolled over.

Click to expand...

Seriously? Ask Latin America. Argentina for example.

JohnfrmClevelan said:

Again with the same snappy answer. (One that has already been answered, btw.)

Why is it that you guys can't manage to answer the few questions I have posed so many times? If he can't demonstrate some harm that comes from debt and deficit spending, then he has no business starting yet another thread premised on the harm that debt and deficits do, like it's a given. It's not a given.

If you are going to participate in the thread, then do your job and bring the data. There is so little substance coming from your side, it's like my guys are shadowboxing.

Click to expand...

the last time i said this it befuddled you on answering,.... it still does.

faithful_servant said:

The problem with debt.spending is that the ONLY group that has ever come together to try to stop this got vilified for doing so. Whether or not you agree with the Tea Party, they have been the only group that has stood up to the status quo and tried to change things. We haven't seen ANY effort from the Left to make a change, just an ongoing support of the status quo within the Dem. party. I think that most of us can agree that both parties are crap at handling debt/spending, yet only conservatives have tried to fix this problem. We need a Left version of the Tea Party, but what we're getting is more and more of the same old, same old. If we are ever going to fix this problem, we need to break the mold and get us out of this rut.

Click to expand...

If they gave a **** then they'd do the same thing to Trump. The tea party came out of the wood work to tell a president who was facing a terrible recession to cut federal spending which is the dumbest idea that they could have possibly come up with. Now we have a president taking over a good economy and not a peep except for Rand Paul. The Tea Party can lick my nuts.