Retaining students during the pandemic

[Josie]

This is a debate we're having in our district this year.

We have many students who are doing very little or nothing when they're on remote learning. They are missing several assignments and tests and definitely aren't checking in for attendance every day with their teacher. Because of this, they are failing and are considered truant as well.

The question is ----- should these children be retained in their grade another year because of it or should they go on to the next grade because it's (for the most part) their parents' fault that they aren't doing their work?

Note: This poll is only talking about gen ed kids, not SPED or newcomers to the country.

 

[GolfingChef]

Yes they should. This is the weakness of virtual learning, most kids struggle with it, and those that are weak academically to start with suffer the most.

You do them a grave disservice pushing them to the next grade when they are not ready.

But I bet it will not happen, too many parents will threaten to sue the schools.

 

[Slartibartfast]

This is a debate we're having in our district this year.

We have many students who are doing very little or nothing when they're on remote learning. They are missing several assignments and tests and definitely aren't checking in for attendance every day with their teacher. Because of this, they are failing and are considered truant as well.

The question is ----- should these children be retained in their grade another year because of it or should they go on to the next grade because it's (for the most part) their parents' fault that they aren't doing their work?

Note: This poll is only talking about gen ed kids, not SPED or newcomers to the country.

I think maybe the best course forward will be an enhanced summer school for this who did get left behind due to this unfortunate circumstance. I know it won't be fun for them and it may even take a few summers to catch up too.

 

[Josie]

I think maybe the best course forward will be an enhanced summer school for this who did get left behind due to this unfortunate circumstance. I know it won't be fun for them and it may even take a few summers to catch up too.

I do agree with that. But if summer school also has to be remote learning, they are still not going to do anything.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I do agree with that. But if summer school also has to be remote learning, they are still not going to do anything.

After we get to herd immunity, hopefully this summer if we are lucky.

 

[americanwoman]

This is a debate we're having in our district this year.

We have many students who are doing very little or nothing when they're on remote learning. They are missing several assignments and tests and definitely aren't checking in for attendance every day with their teacher. Because of this, they are failing and are considered truant as well.

The question is ----- should these children be retained in their grade another year because of it or should they go on to the next grade because it's (for the most part) their parents' fault that they aren't doing their work?

Note: This poll is only talking about gen ed kids, not SPED or newcomers to the country.

As a parent with a full time remote learner, I have to say from my end it's hard to keep up. I have to work full time, monitor her half the time, and still have the household stuff to do. My kid is doing okay, not failing anything so this wouldn't really be applicable but seeing it from the parent's view, and accepting the fault something has to be done.

I guess before I can answer, does your district have the support to do this? For example if every 5th grader excelled and passed to the 6th grade but the majority of 6th graders all failed and had to be held back and not move on to middle school, can you handle the excessive amount of 6th graders?

 

[Josie]

As a parent with a full time remote learner, I have to say from my end it's hard to keep up. I have to work full time, monitor her half the time, and still have the household stuff to do. My kid is doing okay, not failing anything so this wouldn't really be applicable but seeing it from the parent's view, and accepting the fault something has to be done.

Yes, we have many parents who are working very hard to help their kids, but they just have to juggle so much. I don't know how you parents do it. My beef is with parents who do have the time, but just refuse to make their kids do anything.

I guess before I can answer, does your district have the support to do this? For example if every 5th grader excelled and passed to the 6th grade but the majority of 6th graders all failed and had to be held back and not move on to middle school, can you handle the excessive amount of 6th graders?

Great question. We just pooled all of our data together and realized that more than half of our 4th graders are at least a year behind (and many of them are more than a year behind). We'd have to move teachers/classrooms around, for sure, but since it would the same amount of kids (give or take a few moving in/moving out) we wouldn't need more staff, just more space. I tend to think we're just going to move all of the kids along no matter what. We're going to have 5th graders (not SPED) who are reading at a first grade level.

 

[SomeCents]

Yes they should. This is the weakness of virtual learning, most kids struggle with it, and those that are weak academically to start with suffer the most.

You do them a grave disservice pushing them to the next grade when they are not ready.

But I bet it will not happen, too many parents will threaten to sue the schools.

It's a huge disservice to every student -- the ones failing and the ones who've succeeded. We're already facing this issue in some of our kids' (virtual) classes. The teachers (in their defense, we believe they're being told to do so) are giving every possible accommodation: no deadlines, work only for completion (and not accuracy) and still they cater to the kids at the bottom, leaving the average and kids at the top to forage for themselves.

If those who didn't get it are simply passed along, the problems (and gaps) will continue to be exasperated next year.

 

[SomeCents]

We're going to have 5th graders (not SPED) who are reading at a first grade level.

Even at the (relative) start of the school year, one of the local districts around here has almost an entire level at 5th Graders who are not reading at/on grade level. And this is at one their so-called vaulted Academies (a Title I school with millions of extra dollars spent on after-school, enrichment, teacher professional development, etc).

Sources: School Board Presentation (see slide 8 of 14), Local News Article

The pandemic and the virtual school that district chose has only made it worse.

 

[mrjurrs]

This is a debate we're having in our district this year.

We have many students who are doing very little or nothing when they're on remote learning. They are missing several assignments and tests and definitely aren't checking in for attendance every day with their teacher. Because of this, they are failing and are considered truant as well.

The question is ----- should these children be retained in their grade another year because of it or should they go on to the next grade because it's (for the most part) their parents' fault that they aren't doing their work?

Note: This poll is only talking about gen ed kids, not SPED or newcomers to the country.

I can only speak to my position teaching upper classes Social Sciences in HS. Last spring our superintendent said publicly what should have been private regarding our Pass/Don't Pass policies. Everyone that had a C at closing passed, and the outreach to D-F's moved almost everyone forward. I had no problem with that. Last fall, I chose to pass 100% of my students. Did some of them play me? Probably. My classes aren't prerequisites to other classes. Remediation in my district is effectively nonexistent. IMO, in specific cases, there is zero reason to retain students. For other classes, I trust the teacher to make the decision that is best for the students.

 

[SomeCents]

I can only speak to my position teaching upper classes Social Sciences in HS. Last spring our superintendent said publicly what should have been private regarding our Pass/Don't Pass policies. Everyone that had a C at closing passed, and the outreach to D-F's moved almost everyone forward. I had no problem with that. Last fall, I chose to pass 100% of my students. Did some of them play me? Probably. My classes aren't prerequisites to other classes. Remediation in my district is effectively nonexistent. IMO, in specific cases, there is zero reason to retain students. For other classes, I trust the teacher to make the decision that is best for the students.

I'm curious Mr. Jurrs. Would you feel differently if your class was a prerequisite to others? Especially if it were to classes/teachers other than you, those maybe even at a different school....

 

[mrjurrs]

I'm curious Mr. Jurrs. Would you feel differently if your class was a prerequisite to others? Especially if it were to classes/teachers other than you, those maybe even at a different school....

Absolutely. My position has always been that students should be grouped by ability (although I recognize the challenges that putting HS students with MS students would create). But to paraphrase Samuel Clemens...school shouldn't get in the way of a students education. And schools today are worse at remediation than they are at teaching it the first time.

 

[SomeCents]

Absolutely. My position has always been that students should be grouped by ability (although I recognize the challenges that putting HS students with MS students would create). But to paraphrase Samuel Clemens...school shouldn't get in the way of a students education. And schools today are worse at remediation than they are at teaching it the first time.

Thank you for your reply....and the opine that students should be grouped by ability. I have also felt that way, for myself...back in the day, and definitely for our own kids in the here and now.

So, forgive me for asking and taking the opportunity to "chat" (anonymously) with a teacher. @Josie, chime in too, please.

If, given our current climate, students were grouped by ability and it didn't happen to fall along the school/regional racial demographics....would you still advocate for that form of grouping?

I only ask because so much of the stuff coming from our local school division is about "equity" and closing racial achievement gaps. I'd like to think we could move past the check-boxes of race or gender and just deal with the reality of this child needs this or that.

Many hat's off to you and your peers who teach our kids. I'm not sure....I could do it.

 

[mrjurrs]

Thank you for your reply....and the opine that students should be grouped by ability. I have also felt that way, for myself...back in the day, and definitely for our own kids in the here and now.

So, forgive me for asking and taking the opportunity to "chat" (anonymously) with a teacher. @Josie, chime in too, please.

If, given our current climate, students were grouped by ability and it didn't happen to fall along the school/regional racial demographics....would you still advocate for that form of grouping?

I only ask because so much of the stuff coming from our local school division is about "equity" and closing racial achievement gaps. I'd like to think we could move past the check-boxes of race or gender and just deal with the reality of this child needs this or that.

Many hat's off to you and your peers who teach our kids. I'm not sure....I could do it.

In a given climate, distance learning has the ability to group that way and it can work for some students. Grouping by ability has challenges as well. Homogenous classes produce less context/nuance producing a poorer learning experience.

 

[SomeCents]

In a given climate, distance learning has the ability to group that way and it can work for some students. Grouping by ability has challenges as well. Homogenous classes produce less context/nuance producing a poorer learning experience.

I'd also like to think that this rather large (albeit forced) experiment with distance learning....just might give us some reasonable options to remediate those homogeneous classes and provide access to a "rare" class for a rare student.

Our district has struggled with not being able to offer all the various AP classes at all the high schools just because it didn't make logical sense. Now, with the very real prospect of remote learning, they just might be able to pull it off.

But that's at the upper end, both age and intellect wise of the public K-12 spectrum.

I really don't think, however, that virtual/remote learning will prove effective in the long-run for our youngest or those struggling.

 

[mrjurrs]

I'd also like to think that this rather large (albeit forced) experiment with distance learning....just might give us some reasonable options to remediate those homogeneous classes and provide access to a "rare" class for a rare student.

Our district has struggled with not being able to offer all the various AP classes at all the high schools just because it didn't make logical sense. Now, with the very real prospect of remote learning, they just might be able to pull it off.

But that's at the upper end, both age and intellect wise of the public K-12 spectrum.

I really don't think, however, that virtual/remote learning will prove effective in the long-run for our youngest or those struggling.

I can't see how the early grades can be as effective in distance learning. There are some upsides (we're seeing some successes in students that have struggled with the social aspect of high school), but education needs an entirely new technology infrastructure if it's ever going to be really effective.