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Research: Licensing Status Not Important to Consumers

Stealers Wheel said:
Your proposal is a distinction without a difference.
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There's an enormous difference. Licensing creates a cartel which restricts competition which in turn raises prices, lowers quality, and violates the rights of all people to earn a living doing whatever peaceful work they choose.
Certification lets the consumer decide who to hire, opens the market up to stiff competition, which in turn lowers prices and improves quality - just like it does in literally millions of other markets.

This is not to limit the number of people in the profession, but rather to uphold the highest standards of the profession.
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No, that is precisely why it exists. Milton Friedman studied licensing intensely, and he never found a single case where consumers wanted licensing. Instead, it is always the industry groups who lobby for licensing.

Where we live we have a health department that is responsible for inspecting local restaurants, of which there are hundreds. This done for two primary reasons: One, to protect the public from unsafe food handling practices, and two, because a large percentage of our restaurant patrons are tourists, we realize that if our community were to get a reputation for food poisoning, even from a relative small handful of restaurants, it hurts all of the restaurants in town. Rigorous standards and enforcement are good for business.
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Here is a restaurant in one of the most highly regulated cities in the world:

 
aociswundumho said:
There's an enormous difference. Licensing creates a cartel which restricts competition which in turn raises prices, lowers quality, and violates the rights of all people to earn a living doing whatever peaceful work they choose.
Certification lets the consumer decide who to hire, opens the market up to stiff competition, which in turn lowers prices and improves quality - just like it does in literally millions of other markets.



No, that is precisely why it exists. Milton Friedman studied licensing intensely, and he never found a single case where consumers wanted licensing. Instead, it is always the industry groups who lobby for licensing.



Here is a restaurant in one of the most highly regulated cities in the world:

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Other than business license, there are no licensing for used car salesmen. What do used cars salesmen have? Lousy reputations for screwing the public, that's what. Why? BECAUSE there are no standards, no ethics. Does that mean that all used car salesmen are crooks? No, it means that those who are crooks tarnish by association those are ethical and trustworthy.

And you would have ALL professions languish the same way.
 
Stealers Wheel said:
Other than business license, there are no licensing for used car salesmen. What do used cars salesmen have? Lousy reputations for screwing the public, that's what. Why? BECAUSE there are no standards, no ethics. Does that mean that all used car salesmen are crooks? No, it means that those who are crooks tarnish by association those are ethical and trustworthy.
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By that reasoning, politicians should be licensed. Do you support licensing politicians?

Because if you do, you've just outlawed progressivism.
 
aociswundumho said:
By that reasoning, politicians should be licensed. Do you support licensing politicians?

Because if you do, you've just outlawed progressivism.
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That is, without a doubt, the stupidest response you have ever come up with. We license our politicians at every election. Sometimes for 2 years, others for 4 years, still others for 6.
 
RetiredUSN said:
I sub out work to unlicensed tradesmen quite often doing jobs for me under my license and permits. Being unlicensed doesn't mean that they are not good at what they do, but it does mean that by law they cannot bid on work over $1000.00 in my area, and they are very restricted to what they can do to a residential or commercial property. No gas, electical, H/VAC, or load bearing walls.

I started out as a unlicensed handyman after being laid from my estimator job off back in the housing bust era. I obtained my Virginia Class "C" home improvement (HI) license soon after so that I could bid on work up to 10K. I soon got bored with a Class "C" and obtained my Class "B" (HI)................... and then after about 2 years I got my Class "A" Builders.
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Pretend for a moment the 2A doesn't exist. Would you support a gun licensing scheme? I'm curious because proponents of licensing gun owners make pretty much the same argument you are. In the broadest sense, it goes: There's a small chance that doing X may have a bad outcome. Therefore only the state should decide who may do X.
Class A was a bit tough because I had to have a certain amount of liquid assets set aside, so I used my home equity. A class A builder still cannot do gas/elec/h/vac without a documented state licensed journeyman on site doing the work (competent person)
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I've been building houses for over 30 years, and I've hired probably over a hundred different subs during that time. I can tell you with 100% certainty that a government license is no guarantee of competence in the construction industry. There are plenty of licensed hacks around, which is why consumers do not value licensing (see post#1) Furthermore, knowing how to do it right is only part of it, you have to be willing to do it right. In any given trade there are hundreds of ways to cut corners.
 
Stealers Wheel said:
That is, without a doubt, the stupidest response you have ever come up with. We license our politicians at every election. Sometimes for 2 years, others for 4 years, still others for 6.
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There is no similarity between a government licensing scheme and winning an election. If you disagree, then explain how.
 
aociswundumho said:
There is no similarity between a government licensing scheme and winning an election. If you disagree, then explain how.
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And there is no similarity between the population having confidence that most of their homes will not burn down due to shoddy substandard workmanship or that the guy who proposes to remove your gall bladder won't cause a post-op bleed that kills you and a politician who looks you right in the eye and whispers sweet nothings in your ear in order to garner your vote.

Why won't you provide me with the state you allegedly live in? I want to see where unions supposedly issue contractor licenses. I'm happy to do the legwork on this one.
 
aociswundumho said:
Pretend for a moment the 2A doesn't exist. Would you support a gun licensing scheme? I'm curious because proponents of licensing gun owners make pretty much the same argument you are. In the broadest sense, it goes: There's a small chance that doing X may have a bad outcome. Therefore only the state should decide who may do X.

I've been building houses for over 30 years, and I've hired probably over a hundred different subs during that time. I can tell you with 100% certainty that a government license is no guarantee of competence in the construction industry. There are plenty of licensed hacks around, which is why consumers do not value licensing (see post#1) Furthermore, knowing how to do it right is only part of it, you have to be willing to do it right. In any given trade there are hundreds of ways to cut corners.
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It sure as hell rules out the riff raff pretty quick, and if the work isn't up to standard the homeowner can contact the Virginia Licensing board with one phone call.

You would have to be stupid as a homeowner not to check a contractors license and insurance before you allow him to do any work.

I'm not letting some unlicensed jack leg on my property.
 
RetiredUSN said:
It sure as hell rules out the riff raff pretty quick, and if the work isn't up to standard the homeowner can contact the Virginia Licensing board with one phone call.

You would have to be stupid as a homeowner not to check a contractors license and insurance before you allow him to do any work.

I'm not letting some unlicensed jack leg on my property.
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For sure. I would have to know the worker VERY well to get them to work on anything without being licensed and insured.
 
aociswundumho said:
Why don't you keep track of different users?
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You said look it up yourself. I can't do that unless you tell me what state you're in. But you know that. If you reveal that I'll prove you are lying.
 
Stealers Wheel said:
You said look it up yourself. I can't do that unless you tell me what state you're in. But you know that. If you reveal that I'll prove you are lying.
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You are confusing me with another poster - again.

If you disagree, quote the text of me asking you to look it up yourself.
 
aociswundumho said:
You are confusing me with another poster - again.

If you disagree, quote the text of me asking you to look it up yourself.
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My bad. I've been trying to get EMN to support his claim that unions in his state issue contractors licenses. He won't do it because he is lying. My apologies to you.
 
aociswundumho said:
This is pure mommy-statism. How is it that the same adults who are competent enough to vote, are too mentally incompetent to choose someone to work on their own teeth?
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If I’m being rushed to the hospital with a heart attack while having trouble breathing, you want me to do some research and doctor-shopping before I get there?
 
RetiredUSN said:
I sub out work to unlicensed tradesmen quite often doing jobs for me under my license and permits. Being unlicensed doesn't mean that they are not good at what they do, but it does mean that by law they cannot bid on work over $1000.00 in my area, and they are very restricted to what they can do to a residential or commercial property. No gas, electical, H/VAC, or load bearing walls.

I started out as a unlicensed handyman after being laid from my estimator job off back in the housing bust era. I obtained my Virginia Class "C" home improvement (HI) license soon after so that I could bid on work up to 10K. I soon got bored with a Class "C" and obtained my Class "B" (HI)................... and then after about 2 years I got my Class "A" Builders.

Class A was a bit tough because I had to have a certain amount of liquid assets set aside, so I used my home equity. A class A builder still cannot do gas/elec/h/vac without a documented state licensed journeyman on site doing the work (competent person)

You can hire "Jack Legs" (unlicensed workers) at your own risk but if they do any work requiring permits it's on you. They don't carry workers comp, limited liability insurance, bonding, and cannot pull a permit. It will catch up to you sooner or later and especially before the home sale when the inspector rolls through the joint.
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Most of these unlicensed workers are alcoholics.They can't drive because of DUIS.They have to be picked up and taken to the job site and taken back home at the end of the day.Most want to be paid daily.Then they drink and when they sober up they are ready for work again.
 
We put way too much emphasis on business licensing as if it solves more than it really does, feel good mentality with little return.
 
ataraxia said:
If I’m being rushed to the hospital with a heart attack while having trouble breathing, you want me to do some research and doctor-shopping before I get there?
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First of all, people who are injured and bleeding shop for a ride to the hospital, as they try to avoid the local government-created ambulance monopolies:

www.policygenius.com

Policygenius: Compare Free Quotes & Buy Insurance Online

Compare free quotes and shop online for the right life, home, car, and disability insurance for you and your family. We're rated 4.8 out of 5 with over 3,950 reviews.
www.policygenius.com

Second, with a free market in healthcare, you would probably have a healthcare provider lined up before you needed one.
 
Stealers Wheel said:
My bad. I've been trying to get EMN to support his claim that unions in his state issue contractors licenses. He won't do it because he is lying. My apologies to you.
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No problem, I've done it myself on occasion.
 
aociswundumho said:
First of all, people who are injured and bleeding shop for a ride to the hospital, as they try to avoid the local government-created ambulance monopolies:

www.policygenius.com

Policygenius: Compare Free Quotes & Buy Insurance Online

Compare free quotes and shop online for the right life, home, car, and disability insurance for you and your family. We're rated 4.8 out of 5 with over 3,950 reviews.
www.policygenius.com

Second, with a free market in healthcare, you would probably have a healthcare provider lined up before you needed one.
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No problem! No need to go to med school! I saw a video on Youtube. We're good to go!

Of course, there is that little problem of the DEA. They deliberately limit access to local and general anesthetics, antibiotics and pain pills. They do that deliberately to prevent people from practicing medicine. They are so evil.
 
Carjosse said:
So you are going to hire an unlicensed electrician to do the wiring on your home or go to an unlicensed dentist to get a filling?
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If the electrical work passes inspection (is code compliant) then what difference does it make? Licensed (master) electricians (often) hire unlicensed workers to do that work, but the inspector ensures that the work is code compliant. I am not a licensed electrician, but have done quite a bit of home wiring and urge my customers to have my work inspected. With the exception of having a new meter drop (and main panel) installed the code rarely requires that a licensed (master) electrician be involved.
 
In Ohio you can't pull a permit unless you are licensed.And you can't lend your license to someone else.If you pull the permit you have to be the one doing the work.
 
Stealers Wheel said:
More to the point, are you going to buy someone else's home in which you have no idea if the builder built it safely? Is the house an electrical nightmare about to happen? And if it does happen, who do you seek redress from? The previous owner? The builder? And if there are no regulations, then no one is at fault when your family dies in the house fire. Hey! Buyer beware, fool!

Consumers are not concerned about licensure and standards because they assume it's a given, not because they see it as worthless.

If you're in the building industry and you see substandard (not up to code) work being done by licensed contractors, you have an obligation to bring those facts to light and report them to licensing boards and building inspectors.
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This is 100% correct.Take away the regulations and watch it all fall about.
 
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