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Republicans Costing Jobs Already: 300 Lost Due to Scott Walker Election

Troubadour

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The source, who asked to remain anonymous, said that some 300 designers, engineers and consultants working on the project in Milwaukee were told to pack up their things and go home, that work on the project was done, and the building is now empty. Busalacchi's statement comes two days after Republican Scott Walker was elected governor to replace Doyle, a Democrat. Walker has vowed to follow through on his campaign promise to kill the $810 million project, which will be funded by federal stimulus dollars. He called the development a victory for his campaign and a step in the right direction.
Doyle Suspends High-Speed Train Project - Madison News Story - WISC Madison

In other words, a Republican Governor-Elect is gloating over already costing his future constituents jobs before even assuming office. If this is what we can expect nationwide when Republicans take control of the House of Representatives, the economy is in for a major tumble.
 

TurtleDude

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Harshaw

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Yeah. This is what passes for "reasoning" in your world?

To say nothing that this is chickenfeed next to, say, the thousands who will be out of work now that Obama killed the manned space program and the last shuttle goes up in a few months. My guess is, according to you, that's not the same thing at all. Right?
 

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If an economic project necessitates subsidization, it has already proven itself unproductive, else it would have been demanded by the people.
 

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was this a necessary project that the taxpayers can afford?
It's an economic stimulus project - it adds to the economy, not detracts from it.

To say nothing that this is chickenfeed next to, say, the thousands who will be out of work now that Obama killed the manned space program and the last shuttle goes up in a few months.
President Obama saved the manned space program by moving NASA toward a commercial contracting model. There will be immediate job losses, but many of those people will find work in the emerging private space sector, and long-term growth is literally unlimited. I am a space activist (feel free to have whatever fun you want with that fact), so I know what I'm talking about.

If an economic project necessitates subsidization, it has already proven itself unproductive, else it would have been demanded by the people.
Not so. Every major transportation infrastructure project in history says otherwise.
 

Harshaw

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President Obama saved the manned space program by moving NASA toward a commercial contracting model. There will be immediate job losses, but many of those people will find work in the emerging private space sector, and long-term growth is literally unlimited. I am a space activist (feel free to have whatever fun you want with that fact), so I know what I'm talking about.
:rofl

Oh, my God. Deny, deny, deny. Liberals can DO NO WRONG. Even if it's exactly the same thing you're currently blasting a Republican for, only much bigger.
 

TurtleDude

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It's an economic stimulus project - it adds to the economy, not detracts from it.



President Obama saved the manned space program by moving NASA toward a commercial contracting model. There will be immediate job losses, but many of those people will find work in the emerging private space sector, and long-term growth is literally unlimited. I am a space activist (feel free to have whatever fun you want with that fact), so I know what I'm talking about.



Not so. Every major transportation infrastructure project in history says otherwise.
stimulus project


that says it all
 

Disputatious71

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Troubadour

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:rofl Oh, my God. Deny, deny, deny. Liberals can DO NO WRONG.
Unfortunately for your claim, the President's NASA policy is favored more by libertarians than liberals. I often argue with my fellow liberals on the subject, and find a lot more support among libertarians. If your position is simply "It's Obama's policy, ergo it's wrong," then no evidence I give you will change your mind.

Even if it's exactly the same thing you're currently blasting a Republican for, only much bigger.
It bears no resemblance to what Republicans are doing with respect to rail projects. The administration's plan for NASA is that it use its manned space budget to pay commercial contractors for services it would otherwise be developing in-house at higher cost and lower flight rate. The Republican plan for rail infrastructure projects is simply to see them die.
 

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Unfortunately for your claim, the President's NASA policy is favored more by libertarians than liberals. I often argue with my fellow liberals on the subject, and find a lot more support among libertarians. If your position is simply "It's Obama's policy, ergo it's wrong," then no evidence I give you will change your mind.
I don't give a crap who favors it. Fact is, it's a public program being ended which will cost thousands of jobs in so doing, which is the same thing happening with this rail project. Yet, you find no wrong in it, because it's not a Republican who ended it.

(Not that you actually care a whit about these 300 workers in WI.)



It bears no resemblance to what Republicans are doing with respect to rail projects. The administration's plan for NASA is that it use its manned space budget to pay commercial contractors for services it would otherwise be developing in-house at higher cost and lower flight rate. The Republican plan for rail infrastructure projects is simply to see them die.
That is not correct. The plan is to use the vast majority of the budget to step up "climate research."
 

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stimulus project

that says it all
Indeed it does.

I am sure that $810 million could better be used repairing existing infrastructure instead of creating more that needs to be maintained with taxpayer dollars
Why not tear down what we already have so the taxpayers don't have to maintain any of it? The answer is that the economy grows around new infrastructure, and it would be harmful to remove it - just as it's beneficial to build new.

and at 2.7 million per job (300) its a waste to start with.
It's not 2.7 million per job - the 300 lost are just the amount lost right now.
 

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I don't give a crap who favors it.
Then why did you try to use the issue as a smear against liberals, most of whom are skeptical of the President's plan?

Fact is, it's a public program being ended which will cost thousands of jobs in so doing
In order to enable the birth of an industry with unlimited growth potential, and allow NASA to finally begin focusing on its true mission - facilitating general human expansion into space.

which is the same thing happening with this rail project.
No, it is not. The rail project is simply being killed because Republicans ideologically oppose economic stimulus, and need the poor economy to continue into 2012 as an election issue.

Yet, you find no wrong in it, because it's not a Republican who ended it.
I don't "find no wrong in it," I just agree with it - and I agree with it because it's the right thing to do for humanity's future in space.

(Not that you actually care a whit about these 300 workers in WI.)
I do, and I would advise you that telepathy is not an argument.

That is not correct. The plan is to use the vast majority of the budget to step up "climate research."
The administration had originally intended to spend much more on commercial manned space, but the level of Congressional opposition forced it to scale back somewhat. And frankly, climate research makes a lot more sense for NASA than giving Marshall Spaceflight Center a bottomless budget to deliver wildly expensive, dangerous, low-flight-rate systems far above budget and past deadline.
 

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Harshaw

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Then why did you try to use the issue as a smear against liberals, most of whom are skeptical of the President's plan?
I didn't. :shrug:

In order to enable the birth of an industry with unlimited growth potential, and allow NASA to finally begin focusing on its true mission - facilitating general human expansion into space.
Which could have been done without killing Constellation and costing thousands of jobs. Astounding that Meek got even 16% of the vote in Brevard.



No, it is not. The rail project is simply being killed because Republicans ideologically oppose economic stimulus, and need the poor economy to continue into 2012 as an election issue.
So you say. I'm sure they say the money is better spent elsewhere and will create more jobs in the future.



I don't "find no wrong in it," I just agree with it - and I agree with it because it's the right thing to do for humanity's future in space.
Just as they agree with killing what they view as a pork project.


I do, and I would advise you that telepathy is not an argument.
There's no telepathy involved. These people are a mere bludgeon for you to beat Republicans with. Nothing else matters.



The administration had originally intended to spend much more on commercial manned space, but the level of Congressional opposition forced it to scale back somewhat. And frankly, climate research makes a lot more sense for NASA than giving Marshall Spaceflight Center a bottomless budget to deliver wildly expensive, dangerous, low-flight-rate systems far above budget and past deadline.
Doesn't matter. Thousands of jobs lost by killing a public program. Thousands.
 

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If I read this correctly, Gov. Doyle's action just adds to the cost of the project by suspending work while officials “study” the potential impact of stopping the project. The effort is meritorious and it's absence limits the potential growth of the region.

Suspending the project to study the potential impact of canceling the project altogether may be a campaign promise, but that's just a reminder of why elections are so expensive: it's not the ballot printing costs, rental costs for polling places, compensation for poll workers, etc. The real costs of elections are associated to all the promises. In this case, tack on a few hundred million more for the cost of the review. Thanks, Doyle, that governor's chair sure is comfy, huh?
 

DarkWizard12

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Good, I hope governor Doyle continues, it is good governing.
 

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Not so. Every major transportation infrastructure project in history says otherwise.
You are operating under the assumption that the demand for travel would not have produced a more economically and socially beneficial system of transportation. We will never know, as the government stole from the productive sector in order finance projects it's actors deemed more worthy than the citizens from whom the money was taken.
 

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The real costs of elections are associated to all the promises. In this case, tack on a few hundred million more for the cost of the review.
This review will cost a few hundred million? Link?
 

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First of all it is clear from the article that the outgoing Democratic Governor Jim Doyle is the one responsible for temporarily suspending the project. I'll grant that his decision is likely in response to the pressure raised by Walker's campaign, but Governor Doyle is still in charge and the buck still stops with him. So no Republican boogieman under this bed.

Secondly this is a boondoggle of a project and I do not support it. High Speed Rail is only beneficial in a very limited set of circumstance. These circumstances simply do not exist for the proposed Milwaukee-Chicago line, nor do they exist for a Minneapolis-Chicago line of which it was to be a part. A Congressional Research Service report on High Speed Rail in the US notes, the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) estimated that in most cases rail improvements would divert only 3%-6% of intercity automobile trips. FRA noted that corridors with short average trip lengths, those under 150 miles, showed the lowest diversion rates. [1, page 18] The distance from Milwaukee to Chicago by car? 100 miles or less. FRA estimated that generally between 20% and 50% might be expected to divert from air to HSR, with higher diversion rates associated with faster forms of HSR. [1, page 19] Average number of daily air passengers from Minneapolis-Chicago (note: that's the longer route of which the proposal under discussion was only a part of)? 3,527 [1, page 28] This is not a stimulative project. It's not as if people are suddenly being connected with Chicago for the first time. It is not creating access, at best it diverts a sliver of automobile traffic to the railway at even higher taxpayer expense. Aside from the hole digging aspect of the spending this is not stimulative, no new industry or business opportunities are being created by shaving tens of minutes from a portion of commuters days.

J

[1] http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40973.pdf
 

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Indeed it does.



Why not tear down what we already have so the taxpayers don't have to maintain any of it? The answer is that the economy grows around new infrastructure, and it would be harmful to remove it - just as it's beneficial to build new.
Is it your opinion that maintaing old infrastructure is detrimental to economic growth? I doubt that so tearing it down is counterproductive.

It's not 2.7 million per job - the 300 lost are just the amount lost right now.
So how many jobs is the 810 million stimulus touching? Do we have a number that makes the project economically feasible or is it just hope and change we are funding?
 

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In other words, he's keeping a campaign promise? How unDemocratic of him.
He promised to kill jobs?

I didn't. :shrug:
Yes, actually you did. You claimed I was just defending another liberal, even though I've already made clear that I support the underlying policy.

Which could have been done without killing Constellation and costing thousands of jobs.
"Thousands" of jobs maintained at the cost of billions of dollars, in support of a program designed to fail, and that Congress was never going to fully fund? Constellation was Apollo cargo-cult, obsolete and unlikely to succeed even under the best of conditions.

So you say. I'm sure they say the money is better spent elsewhere and will create more jobs in the future.
Then let them deliver specific alternatives before they kill plans already in motion. But they won't, because ending these programs is the whole of their objective - they have no intention of allowing job creation while a Democrat is President.

Just as they agree with killing what they view as a pork project.
Republicans offer no basis for such a view - they're just gunning for economic stimulus programs. They want the American economy to fail, and have barely concealed that desire since day one of the Obama administration.

There's no telepathy involved. These people are a mere bludgeon for you to beat Republicans with. Nothing else matters.
These people lost their jobs to depraved Republican politicking, but it's Republicans you're defending.

Doesn't matter. Thousands of jobs lost by killing a public program. Thousands.
Yes, it does matter. Not all public programs are created equal, and the Shuttle workforce is economically moribund. The advent of commercial manned space services will create an industry with unlimited growth potential.

You are operating under the assumption that the demand for travel would not have produced a more economically and socially beneficial system of transportation.
An assumption sustained by (once again) every single major transportation project ever undertaken in history, not to mention common sense.

We will never know, as the government stole from the productive sector in order finance projects it's actors deemed more worthy than the citizens from whom the money was taken.
Taxation in an elective, constitutional republic is not theft; both the public and private sectors are "productive"; and you are perfectly welcome to avoid publicly-subsidized infrastructure if you wish - you can start by getting off the Internet, and not driving on Interstate highways. Demand a rigorously private Internet and freeway system, and wait for the Invisible Hand to make them fall out of the sky.

Is it your opinion that maintaing old infrastructure is detrimental to economic growth?
It is if the opportunity cost is failure to invest in the drivers of that growth.

So how many jobs is the 810 million stimulus touching? Do we have a number that makes the project economically feasible or is it just hope and change we are funding?
This particular part of the program - the Milwaukee rail project - involves thousands of jobs. That part is only a fraction of the total nationwide HSR initiative. And that initiative is only a part of the infrastructure investment. And the total infrastructure investment is only part of the economic stimulus package. My point was that 300 had already been lost to a Republican campaign tactic.
 

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An assumption sustained by (once again) every single major transportation project ever undertaken in history, not to mention common sense
.

Perhaps you can provide evidence of private transportation failures. Even more elusive, proof of public transportation successes. I do hope you are not expecting to find substantiation on the fiscal stability of government roads, you will be sorely disappointed.

Taxation in an elective, constitutional republic is not theft; both the public and private sectors are "productive"; and you are perfectly welcome to avoid publicly-subsidized infrastructure if you wish - you can start by getting off the Internet, and not driving on Interstate highways. Demand a rigorously private Internet and freeway system, and wait for the Invisible Hand to make them fall out of the sky.
I have never signed a contract allowing anyone else a portion of my income.

Again, I would be more than glad to accept evidence on the economic successes of a public program. Certainly, "public" programs exist precisely because the State can take whatever finances it likes without fear of reproach, and can easily pump cash into anything they desire without fear of competition or failure. However, if these programs were to rely solely on the demand of the populace, they would be forced to sustain themselves on their own merit, as opposed to their political expediancy.

I have demanded privacy in both transportation and electronic file access. The unfortunate consequence of monopoly is that there are no other options. When there is only one brand of bread, I will buy it, despite my uncomfortability that there is only one provider.
 
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...the thousands who will be out of work now that Obama killed the manned space program and the last shuttle goes up in a few months. My guess is, according to you, that's not the same thing at all. Right?
Not really, providing employment for something unnecessary for the sake of structurally employing people is soviet.
 

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Harshaw,

I thought you might be interested in this:

“The launch vehicles for Commercial Crew already exist and are flying today, and the capsules and spacecraft that will fly atop these launch vehicles are making significant hardware progress – rocket engines are being fired, landing systems are being tested, heat shields are being built, designs are being refined,” said Bretton Alexander, President of the Commercial Spaceflight Federation. “The commercial spaceflight industry is poised to meet NASA’s mission requirements for crew transportation, creating thousands of jobs along the way.
http://www.commercialspaceflight.or... Hardware Milestones Reached - Nov 8 2010.pdf
 

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I don't know much about Gov. Walker, but I'm already beginning like him.
 
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