Republicans accuse HHS of gutting welfare reform with quiet policy change

Daktoria · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

James Cessna said:
You are mistaken, Daktoria.

If someone is unemployed or underemployed, it does not mean society has failed to teach the unemployed social values, and allowed labor supply and demand to become desynchronized from social decay. It does not mean people were allowed to reproduce without having commitment to their children's networking into becoming productive.

It means they are receiving unemployment benefits or are working one job until they can find a better job for which they are highly qualified.

Nice try, but no cigar.

I don't buy this because jobs don't come out of nowhere. Jobs exist because people imagine something to do.

If people are having children, but things to do aren't being imagined, then the labor supply is being expanded recklessly.

We can't forget that conservatism makes family values priority number one, especially since children don't ask to be brought into the world.

When people are unemployed, it's because they can't assimilate into the workforce. Lack of social assimilation means lack of social values.

MaggieD · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

James Cessna said:
Sadly, it is clear the Democrats want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to work.

What is wrong with these misguided people? What direction are the trying to take our nation? Do they want us to instead become a nation of "freeloaders" who depend on working taxpayers for their monthly incomes as Greece and Spain have now become in Europe?

Discussion follows.

Note: FoxNews as a news source is clearly considered as mainstream media.

Republicans are accusing the Obama administration of unilaterally gutting welfare reform after the Department of Health and Human Services quietly notified states that they may seek a waiver for the program's strict work requirements.

HHS made the announcement in a policy memo Thursday, news that slipped well below the radar amid a raucous day on the presidential campaign trail. But a few prominent GOP lawmakers on Capitol Hill picked up on the change, and accused the administration of overhauling one of the most important bipartisan agreements of the past several decades.

"President Obama just tore up a basic foundation of the welfare contract" Republican Study Committee Chairman Jim Jordan, D-Ohio, said in a statement. He also called the move a "blatant violation of the law."

Mitt Romney on Friday spoke up on the change, saying: "President Obama now wants to strip the established work requirements from welfare." He said "the linkage of work and welfare is essential to prevent welfare from becoming a way of life."

The hard-fought welfare reform agreement in 1996 was struck between the Bill Clinton administration and a Republican-led Congress. It is still considered a signature legislative achievement from that period.

The number of people on Temporary Assistance for Needy Families has decreased dramatically since 1997, but roughly 4 million people are still enrolled according to federal figures. The change comes in the middle of a competitive election fight between Obama and Romney.

Rep. Dave Camp, chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, and Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, have written to HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius asking for a more detailed explanation of the change and her authority for making it. Both expressed concern that the change would strip the crux of the 1996 welfare reform deal.

"This ends welfare reform as we know it," Camp said in a statement.

I'm disappointed that after years of sitting on their hands and failing to propose any significant improvements to the TANF programs, the Obama Administration is once again over-stepping their authority and attempting to circumvent Congress through an unprecedented bypass of the legislative process," Hatch said

source: Republicans accuse HHS of gutting welfare reform with quiet policy change | Fox News

I've thought this for years. What's the saying?

“A government with the policy to rob Peter to pay Paul can be assured of Paul's support.”

UtahBill · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

Daktoria said:
I don't buy this because jobs don't come out of nowhere. Jobs exist because people imagine something to do.

If people are having children, but things to do aren't being imagined, then the labor supply is being expanded recklessly.

We can't forget that conservatism makes family values priority number one, especially since children don't ask to be brought into the world.

When people are unemployed, it's because they can't assimilate into the workforce. Lack of social assimilation means lack of social values.

a great deal of the time, people are unemployed because the job market is down locally, and up overseas...

UtahBill · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

Daktoria said:
JC, let me ask you something.

Do you think it's a good idea to make the unemployed perform community service or volunteer work to be entitled to unemployment benefits?

take out the word MAKE, type in the word ALLOW.....that adds DIGNITY to welfare and unemployment....

Daktoria · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

UtahBill said:
a great deal of the time, people are unemployed because the job market is down locally, and up overseas...

Believe me, I don't support free trade or free labor. They raise the question about the definition of domestic society.

Free trade and free labor are about efficiency, and efficiency is nice when it comes to getting things done...

...but society is not merely about getting things done. It's about getting things done with a purpose.

When people are unemployed, that means people had more children without a purpose.

Daktoria · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

UtahBill said:
take out the word MAKE, type in the word ALLOW.....that adds DIGNITY to welfare and unemployment....

I see what you're saying there, but people don't ask to be hungry, cold, or tired. Whoever created that hunger, coldness, and tiredness is obligated to make sure it's fulfilled.

That means the unemployed's parents are liable. This is especially the case from how employment takes social networking. If someone can't network, then it raises to know why someone lacks social skills.

Social skills come from parenting. If parents do a bad job, then again, they're liable.

UtahBill · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

Daktoria said:
I see what you're saying there, but people don't ask to be hungry, cold, or tired. Whoever created that hunger, coldness, and tiredness is obligated to make sure it's fulfilled.

That means the unemployed's parents are liable. This is especially the case from how employment takes social networking. If someone can't network, then it raises to know why someone lacks social skills.

Social skills come from parenting. If parents do a bad job, then again, they're liable.

so, no job openings, no kids need to be made?

Daktoria · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

UtahBill said:
so, no job openings, no kids need to be made?

It's a dynamic process.

Job openings should be created in rhythm with children being born. Part of this means cultivating imagination in future generations such that they can employ themselves into the future.

If people are unemployed, that means this rhythm has been desynchronized.

UtahBill · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

Daktoria said:
It's a dynamic process.

Job openings should be created in rhythm with children being born. Part of this means cultivating imagination in future generations such that they can employ themselves into the future.

If people are unemployed, that means this rhythm has been desynchronized.

We should probably only allow educated, successful, and good looking people to have children....:roll:

haymarket · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

Daktoria said:
Well yea, this is even less conservative than what JC was saying. Public works are the least conservative idea of all. After all, public infrastructure is the antithesis of organic community because it just gets built for raw efficiency. There's no narrative behind it.

There is necessity behind it.

Daktoria · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

UtahBill said:
We should probably only allow educated, successful, and good looking people to have children....:roll:

Well...

...I wouldn't say that.

Educated people are meritocratic workaholics.

Past success doesn't guarantee future results.

Good looking people aren't automatically good idea people.

What you need to do is check for social values. Only honest, openminded, trustworthy people should be allowed to have children.

That way, you know people are thinking ahead and imagining what it takes to keep society moving forward.

haymarket · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

UtahBill said:
We should probably only allow educated, successful, and good looking people to have children....:roll:

Only after they
1- fill out the proper forms in triplicate
2- get approved after an extensive screening process
3- take a years worth of parenting classes
4- pass a rigorous battery of parenting tests

upsideguy · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

ttwtt78640 said:
Maybe. For the first two months no, after that yes, and with increasing hours per week required. The same should be true of ANY public assistance. The idea that simply existing and lacking the means to support yourself and your dependents, somehow entitles you to a share of the wages of all others, is not good public policy. Aid for the retired and disabled, such as SS/Medicare, is one thing but aid for ALL is quite another.

Unemployment insurance is insurance. Its paid for by the worker and the employer. You are no more sharing in the wages of others in collecting unemployment insurance as you are sharing in the premiums of others when you collect on your auto insurance, homeowners insurance or life insurance. Perhaps, by extension of your argument, those collecting on homeowners after a fire should be required to work on the labor crew rebuilding the house; or in the auto body shop fixing the car.

Similar to those other types of insurance, employers that have a bad habit of hiring and laying off pay higher premiums than those that plan their workforce a little better and are not as quick to layoff in downturn.

Daktoria · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

haymarket said:
There is necessity behind it.

Well yea, but life isn't about just getting done what needs to get done. It's about familiarizing how necessities are done, and then using that familiarity to celebrate possibilities.

For example, when you drive on a historical road, there's a narrative behind why it was built there. If you're lost in life, you can refer to that narrative as a lighthouse to find your way.

Public works, however, don't have any history behind why they build roads where they build them. They just get built. After the fact, anyone driving along them can get lost, and not know what to do.

Daktoria · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

haymarket said:
Only after they
1- fill out the proper forms in triplicate
2- get approved after an extensive screening process
3- take a years worth of parenting classes
4- pass a rigorous battery of parenting tests

...or you can start here:

kolb's learning styles, experiential learning theory, kolb's learning styles inventory and diagram

Only people who can accommodate all four learning styles should be allowed to have kids. That way, we guarantee that there's no disconnect between how parents and children communicate.

haymarket · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

Daktoria said:
Well yea, but life isn't about just getting done what needs to get done. It's about familiarizing how necessities are done, and then using that familiarity to celebrate possibilities.

For example, when you drive on a historical road, there's a narrative behind why it was built there. If you're lost in life, you can refer to that narrative as a lighthouse to find your way.

Public works, however, don't have any history behind why they build roads where they build them. They just get built. After the fact, anyone driving along them can get lost, and not know what to do.

Seriously, I have a degree in Poilitical Science. I taught Government and US History for 33 years. I really do not know what you are talking about.

I am talking about building roads and projects that are needed to fix and replace our crumbling infrastructure which has been well documented.

We have millions of people who need work and this is a good way to do a double good.

haymarket · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

Daktoria said:
...or you can start here:

kolb's learning styles, experiential learning theory, kolb's learning styles inventory and diagram

Only people who can accommodate all four learning styles should be allowed to have kids. That way, we guarantee that there's no disconnect between how parents and children communicate.

Who is going to "allow" this?

jimbo · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

upsideguy said:
Unemployment insurance is insurance. Its paid for by the worker and the employer. You are no more sharing in the wages of others in collecting unemployment insurance as you are sharing in the premiums of others when you collect on your auto insurance, homeowners insurance or life insurance. Perhaps, by extension of your argument, those collecting on homeowners after a fire should be required to work on the labor crew rebuilding the house; or in the auto body shop fixing the car.

Similar to those other types of insurance, employers that have a bad habit of hiring and laying off pay higher premiums than those that plan their workforce a little better and are not as quick to layoff in downturn.

"Unemployment insurance is insurance."

That statement is only true" to a point. Unemployment is a contract between the worker, employee, and the state, and is finite. Typically the period is 26 weeks, although it can vary state by state. Currently, when the contractual insurance expires, the extensions kick in, which have nothing to do with the original contract premiums. After the 26 weeks, it then becomes just another welfare program.

Daktoria · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

haymarket said:
Seriously, I have a degree in Poilitical Science. I taught Government and US History for 33 years. I really do not know what you are talking about.

I am talking about building roads and projects that are needed to fix and replace our crumbling infrastructure which has been well documented.

We have millions of people who need work and this is a good way to do a double good.

Nobody needs "work". What people need is culture so they can live lives that mean something.

If you're just building public works for the sake of getting stuff done, then there's no meaning behind what they do. You're just burning resources to prevent boredom.

UtahBill · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

Daktoria said:
Well...

...I wouldn't say that.

Educated people are meritocratic workaholics.

Past success doesn't guarantee future results.

Good looking people aren't automatically good idea people.

What you need to do is check for social values. Only honest, openminded, trustworthy people should be allowed to have children.

That way, you know people are thinking ahead and imagining what it takes to keep society moving forward.

what have you been reading that leads you to these ideas?

Daktoria · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

haymarket said:
Who is going to "allow" this?

Before, it used to be religious elders who'd graduate people through a rite of passage.

Today's society is more advanced, so I'd say we need a council of philosophers from our leading universities. They should cooperate with our schools to make sure people are learning the social values required to behave as mature adults.

There would be two levels of maturity. Level 1 would be people who are mature enough to simply be adults themselves.

Level 2 would be people who are mature enough to not just be adults, but teach the next generation to be adults in conjunction with the school system.

UtahBill · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

Daktoria said:
Nobody needs "work". What people need is culture so they can live lives that mean something.

If you're just building public works for the sake of getting stuff done, then there's no meaning behind what they do. You're just burning resources to prevent boredom.

In this lifestyle you speak of, where we don't need work, who plants the crops, keeps out the weeds and bugs, harvests the crops, transport the foods to the stores, so people can eat? Last I heard, the Little Red Hen went out on strike...

James Cessna · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

PeteEU said:
Sounds like GOP polices to the rich.. give them handouts and reduced taxes if any, and of course massive favours and so on..

The rich pay for their handouts and so they deserve them.

The poor do not pay for their handouts and so they don't deserve them.

Daktoria · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

UtahBill said:
what have you been reading that leads you to these ideas?

Schumpeter, Kant, Russell Kirk, Bastiat, Tocqueville, Max Weber...

...I read more than I can remember, heh.

haymarket · Jul 13, 2012

Re: Democrats now want welfare to become a way of life for people who do not want to

James Cessna said:
The rich pay for their handouts and so they deserve them.

The poor do not pay for their handouts and so they don't deserve them.

Perhaps you can tell us why the rich need to get handouts when they are rich?

Republicans accuse HHS of gutting welfare reform with quiet policy change

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