Republic vs. Democracy

[Rich2018]

A Conservative joke is that democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding on what to have for dinner


Whereas in a Republic it would take a 2/3 majority to decide what to have for dinner.

 

[Tigerace117]

It doesn’t matter, American is a totalitarian leftist theocracy.

No, America is not “totalitarian“; it is not “leftist“; and it certainly isn’t a “theocracy”.

 

[Variant]

The aversion to the word democracy is the absurd belief that somehow using that word will magically transport us to Athens Greece, 500 B.C. or at minimum means we have adopted a system that worked for one city state.

I think our system could be improved by introducing more democratic elements. Most certainly by introducing curbs to the most undemocratic parts of our government.

 

[Mycroft]

I don't see anyone arguing for a pure democracy, do you?

???

Do I need to remind you what we are talking about here?

One point they made repeatedly was that the US is a Republic, not a Democracy.
I think most people believe they are one and the same in the context of the US.
What is the significance of the term "Republic" to conservative Americans?

I presented the difference between a republic and a democracy and presented my opinion, as a conservative, of the significance of being a republic and not a democracy.

Your question is irrelevant.

You are dismissed.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Yeah, I agree. The current aversion to democracy is nonsense.

Deep down, many people do not respect democracy because they do not respect their fellow citizens.

 

[RetiredUSN]

For the last few months, I've been on an American "conservative" forum but I came to the conclusion that it bore no resemblance to what I understand as "conservative. (I am a Canadian Progressive Conservative.) One point they made repeatedly was that the US is a Republic, not a Democracy.
I think most people believe they are one and the same in the context of the US.
What is the significance of the term "Republic" to conservative Americans?

1 mob vs. 50 mobs and 538 electors.

 

[Juks]

Thank you all. I have a much clearer picture of what I was missing.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

For the last few months, I've been on an American "conservative" forum but I came to the conclusion that it bore no resemblance to what I understand as "conservative. (I am a Canadian Progressive Conservative.) One point they made repeatedly was that the US is a Republic, not a Democracy.
I think most people believe they are one and the same in the context of the US.
What is the significance of the term "Republic" to conservative Americans?

They think it’s tied to their names so they want the branding “win.”

Also, they believe they have the right to cancel votes they don’t like. So they keep insisting they’re allowed to do that.

 

[code1211]

For the last few months, I've been on an American "conservative" forum but I came to the conclusion that it bore no resemblance to what I understand as "conservative. (I am a Canadian Progressive Conservative.) One point they made repeatedly was that the US is a Republic, not a Democracy.
I think most people believe they are one and the same in the context of the US.
What is the significance of the term "Republic" to conservative Americans?

Seems like it should be the same to anyone.

In the US, literal democracy exists only in small clubs. Even at the level of most cities, though, in the US, "democracy" is at best only a "Representative Democracy".

In the Democracy we use here, there are very few governmentally determined courses of action by which actual democracy is employed. Some local referendums reflect democracy.

Elections in the US occur exclusively within the various states.

Each of the 50 states has their own election rules and arrives at those rules by standards and procedures created within their own state by the government of their own state.

The Federal Government is a monstrosity of convoluted and contradictory redundancies but is the product of the representatives of the 50 states and occasionally the territories.

Because the power to rule the US is vested in a small group of people, the US is a Republic and not a Democracy. How that small group is elected or formed doesn't matter to the definition.

 

[Moot]

???

Do I need to remind you what we are talking about here?



I presented the difference between a republic and a democracy and presented my opinion, as a conservative, of the significance of being a republic and not a democracy.

Your question is irrelevant.

You are dismissed.

Your presentation said the US is a Representative Democracy. Then you said "a pure democracy would cause chaos." Then I said that no one is arguing for a pure democracy. Then you said the US is a Republic, not a democracy. Do I need to remind you that your own presentation proved you wrong and your opinion is irrelevant?

 

[WillyPete]

This is a semantical argument, gang. We are working from multiple definitions of democracy, and sometimes mixing and matching them.

There are two relevant aspects of a government:

How we select our political leaders. In the US that is democratic elections, managed by each state.

How our leaders make policy. In the US that is by the selected leaders voting amongst themselves on behalf of their constituents.

We select our leaders democratically, and they represent our interests. That makes the US government a republic with democratic elections.

That's distinct from a democracy. Whether it makes a difference is subjective.

 

[Rich2018]

I presented the difference between a republic and a democracy and presented my opinion, as a conservative, of the significance of being a republic and not a democracy.

And I comprehensively destroyed it and the meaningless ramblings from someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[Rich2018]

This is a semantical argument, gang. We are working from multiple definitions of democracy, and sometimes mixing and matching them.

There are two relevant aspects of a government:

How we select our political leaders. In the US that is democratic elections, managed by each state.

How our leaders make policy. In the US that is by the selected leaders voting amongst themselves on behalf of their constituents.

We select our leaders democratically, and they represent our interests. That makes the US government a republic with democratic elections.

That's distinct from a democracy. Whether it makes a difference is subjective.

Almost right, a country with democratic elections ***IS*** a democracy

Specifically it is a "Representative Democracy".

 

[Rich2018]

Seems like it should be the same to anyone.

In the US, literal democracy exists only in small clubs. Even at the level of most cities, though, in the US, "democracy" is at best only a "Representative Democracy".

In the Democracy we use here, there are very few governmentally determined courses of action by which actual democracy is employed. Some local referendums reflect democracy.

Representative Democracy ***IS*** democracy

You're referring to "Direct Democracy", which the USA embraces more than any country on Earth on single issue questions.

The Federal Government is a monstrosity of convoluted and contradictory redundancies but is the product of the representatives of the 50 states and occasionally the territories.

True, there is a lot of waste and duplication of effort in US politics
You can blame the Constitution for that

Because the power to rule the US is vested in a small group of people, the US is a Republic and not a Democracy. How that small group is elected or formed doesn't matter to the definition.

No, the USA is a Republic (specifically a Constitutional Republic) ***AND*** a Democracy (specifically a Representative Democracy).

 

[WillyPete]

Almost right, a country with democratic elections ***IS*** a democracy

Specifically it is a "Representative Democracy".

There's the ultimate disagreement, because you appear to be making that call based on how they pick leaders, and I think judging by how they make decisions is more appropriate.

I don't pay much attention to the labels, either. I can call my cat a dog and he doesn't even mind.

The USSR was never a republic, socialist, or a communist nation, whatever they called themselves over the years.

 

[noonereal]

well we dont want mob rule. where the 51% can remove the rights of the 49%

so what we wind up with most times is the 40% removes teh rights of the 60%

It's a terrible system.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

In the Democracy we use here, there are very few governmentally determined courses of action by which actual democracy is employed

You mean other than directly voting for every member of congress, who then set legislation.

 

[Chomsky]

Deep down, many people do not respect democracy because they do not respect their fellow citizens.

Sad. But probably accurate.

 

[Quag]

Why is it always the extreme right wingers who pretend that the USA is not a democracy is it because they so desperately want a fascist state? or simple because they are miseducated?

 

[mrjurrs]

well we dont want mob rule. where the 51% can remove the rights of the 49%

so democracy is constrained by the constitution and courts

A democracy is achieved by conducting free elections in which eligible people 1) vote on issues directly, known as a direct democracy, or 2) elect representatives to handle the issues for them, called a representative democracy.

many of today’s democracies are also republics, and are even referred to as democratic republics.

usa is a representative democratic republic

Or a constitutional republic. Democracy still exists in America though, for example, CA directly votes on propositions.

 

[Rich2018]

Or a constitutional republic. Democracy still exists in America though, for example, CA directly votes on propositions.

Like many, you confuse Direct Democracy (plebiscites) with Representative Democracy - which every democratic country in the world uses.

Other countries also have single issue plebiscites, the the "Brexit" vote recently in the UK.

 

[Slartibartfast]

The US is both a Republic and a Democracy and both things are not mutually exclusive.

 

[mrjurrs]

Like many, you confuse Direct Democracy (plebiscites) with Representative Democracy - which every democratic country in the world uses.

Other countries also have single issue plebiscites, the the "Brexit" vote recently in the UK.

How am I confused? Voting on Propositions in CA is direct democracy.

 

[Rich2018]

There's the ultimate disagreement, because you appear to be making that call based on how they pick leaders, and I think judging by how they make decisions is more appropriate.

How governments/legislatures make decisions is down to their respective rules

What makes a democracy, specifically a Representative Democracy is the fact that citizens elect representatives to speak for them in the legislature

The USSR was never a republic, socialist, or a communist nation, whatever they called themselves over the years.

Absolutely it was a republic, it's leaders were elected not appointed by birthright

What it wasn't, was a Constitutional Republic

And Btw, while you can argue that the USSR was never a communist state, you can't argue that it's economy wasn't socialist in nature.

 

[Rich2018]

How am I confused? Voting on Propositions in CA is direct democracy.

Because you said:

Democracy still exists in America though, for example, CA directly votes on propositions.

What you should have said is: Direct Democracy exists in the USA - eg: the plebiscites held in several states, particularly California

Democracy, specifically Representative Democracy, has always existed as the form of government throughout the USA.